According to the RSPA ``All available scientific evidence points to the fact that animals that are slaughtered without being stunned suffer painful, prolonged deaths'' (http://www.politicalanimal.org.au/election-information/humane-slaughter)

On the other hand, we read the following from a 1978 Research Paper, entitled``Experiments for the objectification of pain and consciousness during conventional (captive bolt stunning) and religiously mandated (“ritual cutting”) slaughter procedures for sheep and calves.''

``The slaughter in the form of ritual cut is, if carried out properly, painless in sheep and calves according to the EEG recordings and the missing defensive actions.''

Their specific finding were that pain was shortest under the ritual slaughter:

``a) For slaughter by ritual cut:

1. After the bloodletting cut the EEG initially is the same as the EEG before the cut. There is a high probability that the loss of reaction took place within 4 – 6 seconds for sheep and within 10 seconds for calves.

2. The zero line in the EEG was recorded no later than after 13 seconds for 17 sheep and no later than 23 seconds for 7 calves.

.......

b) For slaughter after captive bolt application:

1. After captive bolt stunning all animals displayed most severe general disturbances (waves of 1-2 Hz) in the EEG, which almost with certainty eliminates a sense of pain.

2. The zero line in the EEG was reached for 4 calves after 28 seconds.

....''

[originally published in Deutsche Tieraerztliche Wochenschrift (German veterinary weekly) volume 85 (1978), pages 62-66, authored by By W. Schulze, H. Schultze-Petzold, A.S. Hazem, and R. Gross (translated by Dr Sahib M. Bleher, Dip Trans MIL). Source: http://www.scribd.com/doc/18968848/Conventional-Slaughter-vs-Halal-A-Scientific-Examination]

The RSPCA website therefore appears to be misleading.

1978 experiments, Grateful?
So, 33 years ago some researchers decided that the ritual killing methods for slaughtering cattle were less painful than also using the stun-gun?

Do we know if the stun-guns manufactured today are any more effective than back then (33 years ago)?
I also have to ask how many of the 'ritual slaughterers' who don't use stun-guns actually do the job 'properly'?

Obviously, there would not be any need for stun-guns if the original practice was known to be universally humane.

I also know that before I would let anyone cut my throat, I would far rather be rendered unconscious first.

How about you Grateful?

grateful

Hello Grateful & welcome to OLO are you convinced RSPCA are wrong?

http://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.slaugh.html

I am sure you will like to read the world accepted methods on many slaughter methods from world wide accepted Halal slaughter abattoirs.
So much more has been done since Germany.

`#`The slaughter in the form of ritual cut is, if carried out properly, painless in sheep and calves according to the EEG recordings and the missing defensive actions.''#

The difference,is our slaughter first renders the animal unconscious while on its feet then in one second &than-a-second two-motion movement cuts the then exposed spinal cord. That causes a cessation of bio electric impulses that goes to the animal’s brains & once thats gone they cant feel stress- pain.

Oh there is a lot of evidence to this- but be assured the link i provided has info for you.

How did you become interested in Halal Slaughter methods btw grateful. Are you studying to be a vet? Anyway, the German stuff really is outdated. If you looked at my posts you will see i have a interest in this because the Koran says we should treat animals with kindness.

Goodnight grateful

having left much unsaid at kerryannes topic on the rspca
i will restrict myself yet again here

except to say..all death is murder
sometimes its by the hand of man..which bears karmic feedback
other times its bacteria..which is the karma

i eat meat..thus must share the guilt
but no one has clean hands in this violation of the rule 5

undenyably seeds are living..
or rather were living..prior to being crushed..
to make our daily bread..or vego salad

[i guess thats why we should pray over our food
that died..so we can 'live']

as jesus said..let ye with unclean hands
not cast the first stone

that we do to the least..[the beast]
we do to god..sustaining it its living..equally as he sustains ours

death is not dead
we each are spirits
having an incarnate materialistic 'life'..experience

its not as much..what we say
but what we chose..or didnt chose..to do

those who thought to slaughter
will in eternity..get slaughterd
[if they love to slaughter]

the promise reads
more shall be given

but the assurance is...those who rape pilage murder
can only do this..upon 'their own'..[other rapists killers murders]

so be carefull what you chose..to love to do
gods highest law is mercy...grace

forgive them lord..
they know not..what..we do did to others
will in time be done..upon you

For anyone with patience, the link below connects with a fairly long article - with some interesting footnotes - on cooking lobsters at the Maine Lobster Festival. It highlights some of our attitudes we humans adopt as we contemplate our food choices.

http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/2000s/2004/08/consider_the_lobster

"You get the water boiling, put in the lobsters one at a time, cover the kettle, and bring it back up to a boil. Then you bank the heat and let the kettle simmer—ten minutes for the first pound of lobster, then three minutes for each pound after that... A detail so obvious that most recipes don’t even bother to mention it is that each lobster is supposed to be alive when you put it in the kettle. This is part of lobster’s modern appeal: It’s the freshest food there is."

And the question raised is also obvious.

"So then here is a question that’s all but unavoidable at the World’s Largest Lobster Cooker, and may arise in kitchens across the U.S.: Is it all right to boil a sentient creature alive just for our gustatory pleasure? A related set of concerns: Is the previous question irksomely PC or sentimental? What does “all right” even mean in this context? Is it all just a matter of individual choice?"

The corollary here is, I suppose, what is the ethical difference between cutting an animal's throat, and boiling it alive?

And before you say "lobsters can't feel anything", I suggest you read the article.

Incidentally, I'm not a vegetarian, so I don't know the answers. Just the questions.

Country folk think differently to city folks and societies differ in the emotive value placed on certain animals. The only relevant addition I could make is a personal observation:

When I was ten I got a slug gun, my older bros would take me to the canal and we would shoot rats, one time on the way back they asked if I could hit a bird in a tree, I shot, I hit, bird fell and I felt a strong pang of conscience, never shot another bird, but shot rats the next week. The value we put psychologically on other living things varies but the tenet of if we must kill there should be minimum pain is in all but 5% of us, it is called a conscience.

OUG
Halal slaughter is a Muslim requirement. So if grateful wishes to discuss that your bringing Christian quotes into this discussion could be seen as offensive by some. Grateful may not feel very grateful for your to do that.
By compassion it might be likened for eg as to somebody walking into your Church service on a Sunday Morning signing praise Allah. Although I sure if grateful has debated this before he is used to controversy .
Yes it is true as far as I am concerned you disrupted the RSPCA thread & it would be nice if that didn’t happen in grateful thread.
This is a very important topic and the fact is millions of animals are relying upon this debate the lesson the suffering in slaughter.
So if you do have compassion for animals it would be nice to allow us to debate.
However as you are here ( again) I have one for you
Question
Why couldn’t God be Australian?
Because they couldn’t find three wise men and a virgin.
:)

Pericles

That’s not Halal – but yes its awful. The problem is in Australia each DPI must pass law. We have been waiting YEARS.
There excuse- is they have not been declared animals ..

Sonofgloin

I hope everybody has one each day because our Australian Animals need our help badly. We have live exports- intensive farms where animals sit on a A4 piece of paper for life CRUEL

We have pigs locked in stalls biting bars and going insane with no room to turn sit. We have disgusting feed lots instead of animals living as animals should.

These feed lots just like live exports are costing each household about $880.00 a year in taxes. Each $ that goes off shore into feedlots and others is YOUR $
All of the above is not Halal – it is Harem ( unlawful ) to Muslims.
Because the Koran says we must be kind to animals.

Thanks Kerryanne,

My interest stems from being Muslim and I'd like to see the evidence one way or another, so appreciate the the fact that you have provided some evidence. I'll read it over the coming week, Insha'Allah.

Btw, the purpose of the post was not to bag the RSPCA (i should have been more careful by saying the RSPCA's STATEMENT appears to be misleading). The point about the RSPCA's statement was that it referred to "All available evidence" indicating stunning as the most humane method, whereas a bit of googling is enough show the statement is not accurate.
salaams

Grateful

Thanks for that & see you in a week. If you scroll down the link below you will see outstanding achievement under Towards the bottom under Dr Temple + I popped a few more links up for you .

http://www.worldhalalforum.org/download/WHF2011-PostEventReport.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoNErsJNPzw

Dont worry about bagging RSPCA - I do. The information on stunning though is correct- not that they can take credit..
However there is no doubt slaughtering without pre stunning id barbaric & i have researched it. Like you I am just wanting the most humane death.

http://www.daff.gov.au/animal-plant-health/welfare/aaws/a_scientific_comment_on_the_welfare_of_sheep_slaughtered_without_stunning

Overall conclusions

Taken together the conclusions above indicate that because the slaughter of sheep by ventral-neck cutting without prior stunning is likely to cause pain, slaughter of sheep without stunning poses a risk to animal welfare in the period between the time of the neck cut and the time of loss of awareness. The duration of this period of risk is not currently known with certainty. It is at least 2-8 seconds in duration, but may be 8-20 seconds in duration.

salaam

Two words stick in my memory of what a local abbatoir worker said to me about 35 years ago about his job - "Drop Box" and "Sledgehammer".

I wonder how much more compassionate the modern stun gun is.

wobbles

Animals cant be killed by our bolt method when preparing Halal because it damages the scull. This is referred to as harem. The reason being it is no longer a perfect offering to allah.

So to pre stun rendering the animal unconscious - then to cut the correct manner - with a very sharp knife is the halal or Islamic slaughter method used- in place of our western method.

the q and a joke was re jesus
NOT god

as for halal..[or stunning]
all death by the hand of..consious man
is murder*

no ifs or buts
but it WASNT the halal throut cutting that caused this issue
it cwas CRUELTY*...breaking harmless beasts tails..cruelty/TORTURE*

THAT INVALIDATES
...it being from BEING..a perfect 'sacrifice'

how is bruising breaking legs and pain
a perfect sacrifice

IT CANT BE*
[if you had of continued our diss-cussion on that other topic
we could have revealed this flaw of logic..earlier]

but you dont want ammo
to cut these religeous potentates of at their knees

the law reads 'thou shalt not murder'
[not thou shalt not kill...[humainly..for survival]

pleasse also note the scarifice...able made to god
was the fat..of the gift...[the gift was that a good sheppard
served the health and well being of his charge;his flock]..SO MUCH SO THEY GREW FAT*

it was forgivable to god
ONLY because he cared enough
for his flock to grow fat...[thus was forgiven his murder]

but cain..the eldest..KILLED millions of seeds
that he didnt mAKE grow..[god supplied the sun/rain]
all cain did was murder*

so both DID murder
but one was a GOOD SHEPPARD*

his good shepparding
was 'pleasing to god'

so he was forgiven EVEN murder

god NEEDS no sacrifice
so dont say this death is for him
or that abnimal cruelty in anyway could possable be pleasing to god

i believe i allready gave you the more proper prayer
but murder isnt pleasing..*to anyone
and certainly NOT..*for god

nor is cruelty to the least..[the beast]
that we do to the least..*we do to god
this ignorant life is a gift of god

we love god
by loving his living creations
and by respecting..that within them TOO..is his holy spirit
sustaining it its very life..[nature's good nurture][good of god]

*These feed lots just like live exports are costing each household about $880.00 a year in taxes*

That is complete rubbish, Gertrude. Stop telling porkies.

Yabby,

Gertrude isn’t telling porkies. Live exports+ overseas feed lots *are funded by the Australian public.As well its costing an estimated 250.000 jobs yep! Leave that aside and let’s move on.

I see you have stopped arguing with me about the fact Indonesia- told us in March 2010 they were cutting off in 2014.
No doubt you checked it out and found out it was true.
So let’s leave that too.

Moving on and I ask you to think:

The Bill before parliament to Ban it reads to be phased out in* 3 years right?

Think: Yabby before you jump on the key board.

What a big fat coincidence.

The question here is- did any persons conspire to hit at a particular time? Was vital evidence concealed. Well yes imop of course BUT Senators?

The question we have got here imop is whether or not certain Senators held back door meetings with AA or others. That WASN'T their call if it happened. The info should have been passed onto everybody especially graziers and industry.I dont believe it was.

Imop what should”” have happened is Government Graziers, industry & yes Animal Welfare should have been working together since 2010.

It should have been passed onto public MLA Graziers. That was *vital info & if it was purposely withheld its serious.

IMOP this has been planned since March 2010.

Result – massive upset to graziers + irresponsible damage to any real animal welfare orgs. Upset public. An inquiry. LOST TIME.

imop that info was given to AA possibly through Bartlett or ALP back benchers- greens..
TBC

Now- had it been passed onto the industry THEN- instead of turned into a game of backroom politics things would be different.

We would of all been working together, industry government, animal welfare . Instead what we see its a game of possibly fund raising + egos , self promotion.

As far as I am concerned this is nothing more than politics and that’s NOT what Animal Welfare is *supposed to be about.

Who do they think they are- How dare they. Now I am the first to jump on cruelty etc- but how can we get anywhere while Animal Welfare is headed in this fashion!
Think:

*Gertrude isn’t telling porkies*

Yes you are Gertrude and your claim was totally ridiculous. Now
you throw in a major conspiracy theory, which is exactly that.

Fact is that the Govt matches grower funding for R&D, most of which
is spent on research programmes at Australian universities and
similar institutions. Yes, they once gave 1 milion $ to fund some
knock boxes. Your contribution there would be around 5c. So
stop telling porkies about 880$ per family.

If you want to stop live exports, so go and buy the cattle and
slaughter them here. Its a free world.

Yabby

Ok it was all just a big coincidence.

I cant be bothered.

I am sure as hell not going so far to post more here.

Re funding- play your silly games- break it up if you wish.

Bottom line it still adds up to millions of tax payers dollars which should be spent in Australia.

Maybe it will all come out at the inquiry- maybe not. Wait & see.

Your about as smart as MLA.

Grateful,
http://www.azhar.jp/info/halal-eng/halal5.html
Here is the Islamic Slaughtering Argument that your probably looking for.

Its quite lengthy so i will copy here the relevant part your probably after-

“And eat not of that where on ALLAH’s name has not been mentioned for verily it is abomination.

( Surah Anam 6/121)

Then, by a very, very sharp knife (which should be kept like a surgeon’s knife in sharpness and cleanliness, as previously stated by DR Ghulam Khan (UFAW, 1971), a Deep swift cut done instantaneously and quickly to the blood vessels of the neck (the two caroid arteries which carry blood to the brain and head, the two jugular veins which bring blood from the brain back to the heart), the trachea (windpipe) and the oesophagus (gullet), but the central nervous system (the spinal cord) should be kept safe and intact (not cut).

Grateful- This is very old but the difference is we know if the spinal cord is NOT cut the animals feels stress and pain because thats the part that sends that signal.

Theirs reads=

## but the central nervous system (the spinal cord) should be kept safe and intact (not cut).##

The AVA which is the Australian Veterinary Association and RSPCA support pre stunning and to CUT the spinal cord for the reasons I explained.

Hope that helps.

salaams

*Re funding- play your silly games- break it up if you wish.*

No silly claims Gertrude, but at least I have a basic understanding
of how MLA operates and what its charter is. How funding is split
etc. If you want to have a go at the organisation, at least take
the trouble to educate yourself abut what they do and why.

Spurious and innacurate claims will win you no brownie points,
apart from those ignorant of the facts.

*As well its costing an estimated 250.000 jobs yep!*

Claims like that are complete rubbish. You really deserve the
title of a hysterical housewife who simply does not understand
the industry.

Yabby

Keep your eye on the inquiry for information and you might learn something!

**I hear too the Ministers office Ludwig advised there were NO meetings taking place taking place in regards to Ritual Slaughter.**

That position I believe has been constant for months + provided in writing. What does this look like =

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/201107/s3271781.htm

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/agriculture-minister-demands-mandatory-stunning-for-cattle/story-e6frea6u-1226094187730

Even you should be able to gasp the seriousness of that.

Yes I know you get your info through MLA and that is your problem.

Not only yours but the Ministers too. Would be the LAST place i would seek information from. Only a fool would listen to anything they said. Well it looks like the Government has been caught with it pants down.

As for Indonesia like i said the Indonesia government were forced by the poor people ( farmers) to stop live exports because it was sending them bankrupt.
So all your Industry and MLA dribble is just that.

Fools and their money soon part & I hope you have invested heavily.
btw those figures have been proven o the jobs- like i said WATCH the inquiry. I cant be bothered with your trivial rubbish.

I am more interested to provide alternative markets for farmers.

*btw those figures have been proven o the jobs*

No Gertrude, those figures have not been proven. They are just wah wah.

The MLA charter was set up long before Ludwig came along. If you
don't understand it or know about it, well stick to house work or
bother to inform yourself. Indeed Ludwig is the new boy on the block
and does not really know much about agriculture. Northern pastoralists
were a bit shocked after meeting him. But it is those pastoralists
who will decide the future of their industry, not some Gold Coast
housewife.

Yabby

Firstly they are not my figures. Which is why I asked you to watch the inquiry.
Those are the findings of a well respected research source. Its running collective information over 3 year periods.
Not on just live exports but many issues.

*The MLA charter was set up long before Ludwig came along*
Again tbo it makes zip difference to me whom was supposed the inform whom.
He possible victim of MLA – Or MLA a victim of sloppy government work.

The entire system is hopeless and the result is obviously a disaster.

* Northern pastoralists were a bit shocked *

How would you know that Yabby? Did MLA send out another media release.?
You say you’re a farmer.-You’re the first farmer I have met that sits on OLO in daylight hours – all day.

If you’re a farmer you should be on Just Grounds with the rest of them.
So why don’t you find a Google search and head off there. Say G,day to Rob Moore for me.
http://justgroundsonline.com/main/index/

Actually, I do have a farm .I director, President within the area we have discussed.
I live by my own standards. I assure you I am not a housewife.
Its something I committed to when I was about five I reckon.
To spend my life improving animal welfare. Not that there is anything wrong with house wives. It just not my thing.
I gave you the heads up- on the other thread. It wasn’t anti graziers either.
If you’re not bright enough to pick up on the evidence i dumped in that thread that’s your problem- not mine.
Go away and play Mr know it all with the others.
Because just between you and me – your cover as being well informed it blown.( not that you ever fooled me.
You know nothing- other than what you read which is mostly MLA bull.
Just like the Minister.

*Those are the findings of a well respected research source.*

So you claim. But anyone who knows about the meat industry knows that
they are bull. Go on prove me wrong. Show me where they came up
with those figures and how they calculated them. I will show you
where they are bull, so will others who understand the industry.

* The entire system is hopeless and the result is obviously a disaster*

Again its all black and white, all emotion with you. No reasoning
at all. Fact is that MLA have done some very good work in marketing
lamb for instance. In promoting beef in various markets for instance.
In r&d alot of automation work in abattoirs for instance. In funding
of CRCs into meat quality and their findings for instance. Those
findings have been invaluable for the future of the industry. You
seemingly don't know a thing about all those. If you were a farmer,
you would be an MLA levy payer, you could have your say. But
you don't even understand how that works.

I am all for informed criticism, but it helps if people at least
understand their subject. Just waving your arms in hysteria, is
not going to do it, I am afraid.

The fact that pastoralists were shocked by Ludwig was on the rural
news. They were interviewed. You might not hear that on the Gold Coast.

What you are pushing for is not animal welfare, but more like a
cross between a dreamy animal rights and animal liberation.
Agriculture is concerned with animal welfare, there is a difference

Wait and read it online in the inquiry. It was sent to me & I have nothing to do with it. You will see it soon enough and can argue it with the research team if you wish to. That is your right.

*Again its all black and white, all emotion with you.*
I have no emotion and care neither way who is the blame.
I am angry however for the farmers and others that they were not warned in 2010..

Now of course we have a situation of graziers having to find alternative markets for thousands of their cattle with little notice.

Only up to 50 000 head of cattle will be able to going. Although I don’t approve live exports I am furious! As the graziers should be this was kept from them since 2010

He says graziers should make the decision soon says MLA. Decide what? My interest is to find alternative markets pre stun and send in a box-.

*but it helps if people at least understand their subject. Just waving your arms in hysteria, *

Yabby , my sentiments exactly ! The graziers of course are also their OWN worst enemy. Well actually , some are- some not.

Once again Yabby its those with vetted interests- we were asked to post on just grounds- As soon as alternatives were suggested and a few graziers asked – yes pls we would like to meet buyers interested to erect plants- bingo! Banned from the site.

*Go figure* & before you say it- NO it wasn’t me – it was a man with the contacts with Muslim buyers.

Ok Yabby- hes a little TEST

Tell me right now what is happening in Australia atm about building new abattoirs?

You won’t find it on googles so don’t bother looking. Let’s see how much you really know about the industry ?

I am waiting—

No doubt just like always when you cant answer the question you leave the thread.

Prove me wrong- go on take a guess where , if , what state is

something happening—if at all.?

Gertude, the reaon that pastoralists are left stranded is because
Ludwig ran scared about a bunch of hysterical housewives. The cattle
will pay the price, sadly.

The Indonesian information was not secret. It remains to be seen
if they can breed enough of their own cattle, given an ever rising
population. There are better things to do with land in Indonesia then
run breeders, like grow lucrative cash feed crops for feedlots.
So that market might well continue on for a long time,when reality
prevails.

Meantime AACo are going ahead with their plans to build an abattoir
in Darwin. That will cater for around 200'000 cattle, mostly
old biddies which they can't afford to freight south.

The thing is, 90% of livestock are already processed in Australia.
Do 90% of Australians drive Australian cars? Nope, around 15% do.
So your labour argument is a foolish one.

But the live trade remains a vital part of Australian agriculture.
It keeps local processors honest, which would not be the case if
the trade closed, they could name their price. It helps deal with
drought as those ships can move huge volumes of livestock in a hurry,
which is critical for drought coping strategies. Every farmer
understands these facts, you seemingly don't. You are clearly
out of touch with agriculture.

Gertude, the reason that pastoralists are left stranded is because
Ludwig ran scared about a bunch of hysterical housewives. The cattle
will pay the price, sadly.

Yabby when you make childish statements like the one above over and over- you just lose any credibility.
Frankly, you’re not helping graziers or farmers either- its bad PR – but whatever.

The fact AMIEU and Abattoir owners and thousands of others have long lobbied the trade ban- you seem to ignore.
( As you wish)

*The Indonesian information was not secret*

If you’re trying to say the industry WAS informed in 2010? That puts a very different slant in things.

Meantime ... Actually buffalo

*The thing is, 90% of livestock are already processed in Australia.
Do 90% of Australians drive Australian cars? Nope, around 15% do.**

For god sake Yabby! Animals are not cars. They are living breathing beings who feel fear and pain.

You seem incapable of grasping the difference.

*So your labor argument is a foolish one.*
Never voted ALP in my life!

Nor do they HAVE to deal with It keeps local processors !!

All they have to is is get off their bums and deal direct with buyers globally

Instead of expecting everybody else to drive their market like basket cases.

grateful,
I bumped a button which brought up your old posts. I thought you were new to olo.
I see you have been researching Halal slaughter for two years now.
So i will made it easier for you . Here are the Australian Standards. In Australia we follow Australian Law.

Personally, I am concerned about things like bribery allegedly involved in such places as Indonesia. It would be a pity to rock the boat too far with Australian standards. That might only serve to stir up a whole lot of trouble. Cant you imagine the uproar from the public if that type of thing came up. It would be such a pity and no doubt they end of the free rein for several.
I think it would be wise to reach a compromise - something like agreement to pre stun in Australia& work towards funding proper animal welfare together off shore as well- dont you.?
I will leave you to look over the Australia standards.

salaa

Celebrating 250 years of the veterinary profession – Vet2011

Humane slaughter
Policy
Slaughter of animals must be carried out in a humane manner. Animals must be
humanely rendered unconscious until death.
Background
The slaughtering of animals is usually to provide food, although animal slaughter can
also be used for population control and disease eradication. Arrangements should be in
place so that animals are spared unnecessary excitement, pain, stress or suffering
during movement, restraint, stunning and slaughter.
Regardless of religion or cultural beliefs, animals must be humanely rendered
unconscious prior to exsanguination. A sheep can remain conscious for 7 to 20 seconds
after its throat is cut, while loss of consciousness in cattle under similar circumstances
can take up to two minutes.
There are species-specific Australian guidelines on how to slaughter animals humanely.
These are outlined in the animal welfare model codes of practice as well as in industry
standards.
References
Scientific Panel on Animal Health and Welfare. 2004. Opinion of the Scientific Panel on
Animal Health and Welfare on a request from the Commission related to the welfare
aspects of the main systems of stunning and killing the main commercial species of
animals. The EFSA Journal, 45, 1-29. (www.efsa.eu.int accessed on 21 April 2011).
Australian Animal Welfare Strategy. Preamble. http://www.daff.gov.au/animal-planthealth/
welfare/aaws/online/reamble. Accessed 8 October 2009.
Ratified by the AVA Board 8 July 2011

Policy_Live Exports Page 1 of 1

Chief Executive Officer
Australian Veterinary Association

Celebrating 250 years of the veterinary profession – Vet2011

*The fact AMIEU and Abattoir owners and thousands of others have long lobbied the trade ban- you seem to ignore*

In that case the AMIEU should be able to provide 50 workers, when
a local abattoir wants them. They can't. As it happens Trefort and
other abattoir owners actually understand the need for live exports.
The thousands that you mention, are a few hundred fanatcial
vegans and members of animal liberation, Peta and similar. They
are like you, against people eating animals.

*Animals are not cars. They are living breathing beings who feel fear and pain.*

Yes, but they are not delicate little petals that need your
bemothering either. Sheep and cattle are pretty tough. You live
by these idylic dreams, like that they would hate feedlots. Well
I can tell you that if I leave the gate open, they will rush into
the feedlot and scoff their bellies on oats, then sit down and chew
the cud, for that makes a ruminant extremely happy.

*All they have to is is get off their bums and deal direct with buyers globally*

Yes, you keep pushing this rubbish, when it is far from how the meat
market works. Cut up a lamb or beef carcass, the various cuts might
go to 10 different markets. That is how to maximise the value of
a carcass to pay for the expensive Australian processing costs.

What a ridiculous statement to make. Given plants has closed down over a 20 year period more and more because of live exports- we have lost skilled workers.
Fear not however Yabby because there is a new training programme ready to be launched.

Oh dear, Yabby Peter MLA board member btw has contributed to WA probably with some MLA funding.
Hes employing over a 100 jobs in his local town and that’s the way it ought to be.
Now- what Peter did say was things will never change until the Indonesian Government fix them

The thousands that you mention, .. No there were the public and btw public join groups.
The last time over a hundred thousand people marched the streets to parliament were in fact the farmers over fuel tax.
Old slim wrote a song about it. Remember they shot the heads in NT to save the export market with some cock en bull story about Q fever.

*Yes, but they are not delicate little petals *
As you well know i am not working with peta veggies and i am sure you will agree not a sweet little petal

*All they have to is is get off their bums and deal direct with buyers globally*

*Yes, you keep pushing this rubbish,*
Yabby, modern times- things change get over it & put some freezers onboard.
Now, I will tell you one more time.
As you know they want live for jobs- ok. We will never supply enough labour to service ALL- some yes but not all.

Also, they still want jobs – So we killem and senem whole cacuss- direct to buyers- no middle men.

Its already being done and those growers as happy as.

Hadn’t you best get back to save the WA thread. I would hate to see you miss out.

I bet you never shared your lollies as a kid either. That’s the real problem you know Mommies spoiling their little boys.
Often they continue throughout life to act like greedy little brats.
Run along now and play.

Dear Grateful- good morning. I will leave a few more standards for you to appraise on your return.

salaams

Halal Certification Authority - Australia

PRESS RELEASE
This Authority hereby condemns Majlis Ulama Indonesia (MUI) in the name of Islam for the heinous, disgusting and un-Islamic treatment meted to animals in slaughter houses under its watch.
This Authority has come to the conclusion that Handlers and Slaughtermen in Indonesia have no idea about Islamic rules on animal welfare and treatment. Also the Slaughtermen seen on the ABC report of 30/05/11 seem to either be oblivious about the rules of Halal slaughter or choose to ignore them.
This Authority would like to remind MUI that the following acts are forbidden in Islam:
• Hitting animals on the face or head
• Torturing animals with water or other means
• Dragging animals on concrete floors
• Slashing tendons or breaking tails while animals are 
•Poking, gouging or kicking animals
• Letting one animal see another being slaughtered
• Letting animals see blood
• Slaughtering animals using sawing action
• Using a blunt or inadequate knife to slaughter animals
Animals in Australia are temporarily immobilised (stunned) prior to Halal slaughter with the knowledge and acceptance of all religious as well as governments in importing Muslim countries including Indonesia. Therefore Indonesia is strongly advised to stop the hypocrisy and copy Australia.
MUI Executives should stop gallivanting around the world to primarily enrich themselves and to extract funds from Western Halal Certifiers for their organization. Instead they should stay home to put their own house in order.
For and on behalf of
Halal Certification Authority Australia
Mohamed El-Mouelhy
Chairman
Sydne

See Gertrude, you are so out of touch with the industry, that you
don't even understand its history. Plants did not close because
of live exports, they closed because they could no longer make
a profit. Markets changed. We lost our British market, when Britain
joined the EU. It was where most of our beef had gone. At the same
time the meat workers were one of the most militant unions in
Australia. Eventually they were taken to court and had to pay
millions. But employers had had a gutful. Alot of plants further
south closed because of industry rationalisation and automation.
Mum and dad businesses replaced by large modern plants, which
lower per unit labour costs. Given that much of our meat is sold
in the third world, it has to be at a price which they can actually
afford to buy. You clearly never had to shoot stock because meatworks
could not find a market for the stuff.

No thousands demonstrated about live exports either. It was basically
a fizz, nation wide. Most demonstrators who turned up in Perth were
farmers, insisting on their right to export live. Including Polly
Trefort, who knows more about this industry then you could ever
dream of. He is part of it, you are not.

Yes you don't work with other animal activist groups, because they
seemingly won't work with you. That does not change the fact that
you are a closet vegie who thinks that eating animals in uncivilised.
You have admitted it yourself. So you are hardly taking an objective
view of animal welfare.

Local meatworks never looked for skilled workers. They will train
them. They looked for people who were not taking drugs as there are
OHS issues if they do. They also need to turn up for work every day,
not just on days when it suits them. They had no takers.

Yabby,

Your such a little pest. Why don’t you go off and play cowboys and Indians or take up knitting. Strangely enough I can picture you doing that rather well. ( unlike somethings)

Yes, the meat unions were tough & let’s face it- behind that was ALP verses LIB.The poor animals paid the price again & still are. Unions and live exports both played a part.

*A fizz, nationwide.*

Well Yabby- in case, given the amount is now restricted to only 50 thousand- I would hate to see it go off with a bang:)
( wouldn’t you)?& Its not over yet.

What’s sad is that you have no shame concern for animals being flocked to death for over and hour. That you have no concern what its doing to the poor Indonesian farmers- who demanded live imports were ceased because its sending them bankrupt. You and I know however thats only a side show. The Indonesians will do what they said.

*Yes you don't work with other animal activist groups, because they
seemingly won't work with you*

Yep, thats true. They have more in common with you then I.
Articulate politically correct. All the stuff that I have little time for. Just because you dont hear about them in the media- Yabby there are hundreds of thousands of people all doing their bit.
I am just but one- pretty harmless really.{-

**you are a closet vegie who thinks that eating animals in uncivilised.**

What I said was in 50 – or a 100 years’ time people wouldn’t eat meat

Of *course its uncivilised if you look 100 years backward.*

As time moves on I have EVERY intention of pushing Halal veggies i have always said that. The timing isn't right for pushing the veggie barrow. One step at a time. Mean time I am not asking much- just kill them here in the mean time.

We will as *you have always said move with the times and go with the market demands.

#Local meat works never looked for skilled workers. They will train
them. #

Good comment and agree 100

No 50 thousand Getrude, all the demos in total were a bit over
a thousand or so. The biggest demo was in Perth, 300 farmers
and 100 vegans. So your wild claims are totally out once again.
They gathered a few signatures granted, after a huge internet
campaign to do so. Anyone will sign a petition. Now they
are going to organise another demo, because the last one was
clearly a flop.

*At least until the world becomes a more civilized place & stops killing animals to eat*

That was your claim. Clearly a vegie who thinks we are uncivilised.
Fair enough, you would rather bemother them then eat them. Each
to their own. But lets just say it as it is.

Of course I'm a pest. For I know the figures and question your
many wild claims, which are full of bull.

What is interesting is that all you vegies are so focussed on the
live trade, yet wild dogs are out there ripping lambs and calves
to bits every day, right here in Australia. You do nothing to
control them. Its easier just to sit by the computer and give
farmers a hard time, as most arn't at their computers giving it
back.

Urban computer jockeys, who refuse to spend money on improving
animal welfare in the third world, we'll just make a lot of
wah wah on the internet to pass the time.

*No 50 thousand Getrude, all the demos in total were a bit over
a thousand or so.*

Yabby dear, put your glasses on. I said 50 thousand cattle not people.

50 000 head of cattle will be able to be live exported to Indonesia this year.( maybe less) still too many of course.

Its better to make decision earlier about alternatives for cattle." Pity others didn’t listen. Could have had so many markets in place b now.

Your wrong- Many years ago one hundred thousand farmers took to the steers over tax of fuel. The public turned out one hundred and twenty thousand Australia wide a month ago.


*At least until the world becomes a more civilized place & stops killing animals to eat*

Yabby, I have to move with the market. The share holders will drive it.

Look at this--
http://timeforchange.org/are-cows-cause-of-global-warming-meat-methane-CO2

According to the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO) agriculture is responsible for 18% of the total release of greenhouse gases world-wide (this is more than the whole transportation sector). Cattle-breeding is taking a major factor for these greenhouse gas emissions according to FAO. Says Henning Steinfeld, Chief of FAO's Livestock Information and Policy Branch and senior author of the report: "Livestock are one of the most significant contributors to today's most serious environmental problems. Urgent action is required to remedy the situation."

I am realistic Yabby, & know the global warming debate will only heat up over the years.( No pun intended)

Unlike MLA & Industry we make sure we have other markets. Yes, I feel sure in time there will be a higher demand for added agriculture products for growers to go with.

Its all part of a good companies responsibly to move with the times. The industry supply & demand will dictate not us.


*wah wah on the internet to pass the time*

Yes its sad to see you so bored Yabby- what about that knitting I suggested for you?

*The public turned out one hundred and twenty thousand Australia wide a month ago.*

More porkies from Gertrude. The demos were a complete fizz. No wonder
they are trying so hard to organise another one on the 14th. They
need credibility, for they certainly don't have numbers.

*I have to move with the market.*

The point had nothing to do with the market, but your role as a
closet vegie. Mind you, I have yet to see you sell a single kg
of meat. You need Ausmeat accreditation for that.

FAO figures apply to intensive farming, not to Australian livestock.
If our cattle did not eat the grass, wildfires would dominate the
landscape each summer. The cities would choke on it.

But keep dreaming Gertrude.

*The public turned out one hundred and twenty thousand Australia wide a month ago.*
Yabby, not that its important but i watched in on the news- Aussie wide they said 120K( Chanel 7 argue with them.
I didn’t go. It would be lamb to a slaughter- no just kidding. Whatever- for everyone who attended another 100 at home would support their position on it.

http://www.animalliberationfront.com/ALFront/Arkangel/Ark13pt3.pdf

No wonder they are trying so hard to organize another one on the 14th. They
need credibility, for they certainly don't have numbers.*

Oh are they? I didn’t know that. I can say in all honesty I never look at their site.
Well thanks for telling me- i guess we should give them a hand.
We have people in every state. One thing I will say about Muslims- they are very good funds raisers.
Prompt to turn up and get stuck in. So hey thanks from the animals Yabbs.

. *You need Ausmeat accreditation for that.*Yup 5&half K X 2 people + accom.
Not that *I had to.
I don’t sell meat- i connect buyers growers& gov+ Muslim contacts for accreditation's.


.
*If our cattle did not eat the grass, wildfires would dominate the
landscape each summer. The cities would choke on it.*

CORRECT & our argument for Free range only- + healthier product.
Just like a guy I was chatting to in WA yesterday- free range

*but i watched in on the news- Aussie wide they said 120K *

I watched the news too, Gertrude and they never claimed that.
So either once again you are telling porkies or yet once again
your memory for numbers is flawed.

Farmers cannot export meat, they would all need accreditation
by Ausmeat, which means a course and an extended knowledge of
meat and all the regulations. Accredited export works, with
the establishment number written on every box, are meat
exporters. The rest are simply wheelers and dealers who
want their commission.They are a dime a dozen.
But then Australia already sells 800 million $ a month of
meat. MLA work with the big boys, not the dreamers. Fair enough.

Somebody frankly has to tell you this stuff occasionally, as
you live in your own little dream world over there, isolated
from reality. So shoot the messenger.

Yabby
Pls search net. Only glanced up. It was 7 news.

Ausmeats- no problem *already have import licenses .– As *if we would expect farmers to do that part too.
What do you take us for. Farmers have enough to do.

How it works EG:-
Heres one for Iran- won’t put all.

: 20000 ton beef meat in 6 month, every month 1500 up to 2000 ton in month in 20 contracts. Please send Performa invoice to us and we need Halal brand and payment be in LC from bank. About provide beef we have tree company agent that control provide beef meet. Also Your Company must pay cost of 2 company agent Age of meet must be under 24 months and present of your beef include 37% hindquarter And 63% forequarter, 10% of forequarters can be other beef meet.

xx
*Now each *new customer we invite company+ vet - You know that already.*
Our job- Take them to Halal plants- - They happy-= we arrange accreditation- they go back give to Iran Gov- takes ten days.
But Iran isn’t the easiest . Here is one for China
Quote everything by the container (20 ft or 25MT/container)
Monthly volume 15 to 20 containers to HK
TBC

1. Beef Shin (Boneless): 3/Month
2. Beef Brisket : 3/Month
3. Leg Tendon: 3/Month
4. Beef Stir Fry strip (Whole/uncut)#11 Beef others: 3/Month
5. Beef Tenderloin #5 All 3 types: 6/Month The first order is going to HK, Port Victoria. We have 12 other countries.
Ok here is one of mine Its for Dubi.
We have previously purchased through a middle man however this has proved costly and the supply has been sporadic. I am interested in your idea all cuts of Beef, Lamb, Veal, Chicken and Turkey. Our current usage is significant for example

Chicken breast -- 48,500 KG per month
Chicken Leg Quarter – 11,000 KG per month
Turkey Breast – 6,000 KG per month
Mutton Back Strap – 2,000 KG per month
Boneless Mutton Leg – 9,000 KG per month
Beef Eye Round – 6,500 KG per month
Beef Tenderloin – 6,000 KG Per month

We wish to take the product frozen and can take by 20ft container. If you think this is something you may be able to assist me with I would very much like to talk with you.

Take care

So Yabby, We* introduce *buyers to *growers- from there they invest in *plants.

For the bit on room i have here Yabby, I will do my best. Yes the Ausmeat course is painful and not only that you can get caught.

We arrange accreditation's and the importers usually have both licenses.If not they send one or 2 of their own to do the course in Melbourne. No need for farmers to do it- if they wanted to we would help anyway.

All we need is farmers and local knowledge- best place t build.
We cant mix halal accreditation's- so all orders MUST come from same plant all big orders.

AFIS handles accreditation with visiting country. All farmers have to do is be farmers- NO middle man to pay so more & for u.
Slaughter WA export whole carcass.

How do you temporarily stun cattle? The spinal cord of a bullock could be 8 or 10 inches below the surface, The severance of the spinal chord has been done in cases where the animal was unable to be shot with a stun gun, because of the thickness of the skull. The severance of the spinal chord is carried out with a large and heavy cleaver.
Stun gun cartridges are of varying explosive value, Black for large animals, and red for lighter animals.

Come on Gertrude, get real! I've seen all the so called interent
meat trading sites, where every middleman on earth is trying to
make a few shillings with big dreams. It nearly all turns to
dust in the real world.

Your notion of buyers doing the Ausmeat courses is laughable.
Half of these people hardly speak English. To be Ausmeat
accredited, at least two from each company would have to do
the course and pass the test. The course takes a week and
costs around 2300.00 per person plus annual fees. No sensible
buyer would bother, when they can walk into any major exporters
office and buy container loads of meat as they please.

But dream on dear, it keeps you off the streets :)

Yabby,

I believe Mr Branko left a comment for you on olo + one of his export sites.
Also there are plenty of people with Ausmeat certs around .
What many offshore companies do is send 2 staff to do the course.

That is five & and half G for a week. None of those orders came off the net they are all direct through contacting af.

Your an fool Yabby call Sharon at the Victoria Ausmeat course..

I actually do have two going quite soon. HOWEVER we dont normally

have to bother because others have full requirements.

The last thing i will do is post the course AND cost on here so people can see what a liar you are yabby - then that it!
I have already said there is NO NEED for farmers to do the ausmeat course.

http://www.ausmeat.com.au/media/ausmeataccreditation2npe.pdf

Right now call Sharron on Monday its 11 thousand for two people.
Yes your right its a joke 99% come over from their companies dont speak English- Its a requirement of law nothing more.
Also you would be crazy to let someone try to run it without lots of hands on experience. Anyway I have had enough of wasting my time.

You do your thing- i will do mine and dont bother posting to me

Wel Gertrude, if under your claimed system farmers don't need to
do the course, then farmers are not the exporters. They are just
flogging you livestock, like any other deal that farmers do, of
flogging livestock to a buyer.

No big deal, it happens every day. Your nearest saleyard has
thousands for sale and agents guarantee that buyers money is
good, so that farmers know that they will get paid.

Yabby,

I warn you I am not in a good mood. I had enough from in my strong opinion a lunatic @ now in the AFIC office ok, so back off.!
If this bloody Government doesn’t do something about these so called peak Muslim leaders causing trouble.
.
Now what’s your problem this time: I don’t do business – or give our private programme over a forum!

I have more on my mind than this- Your just fishing for info. If you had been interested you would have made proper inquiries before this.
You might have nothing else to do – but I have!

*Well Gertrude, if under your claimed system farmers don't need to
do the course, then farmers are not the exporters*

Well Yabby- it goes like this- if they want to they can-but-
many farmers does it take to change a light bulb?

Do we need *every farmer to hold a export licence to ship some meat- ?

Or do we just need the farmers to talk to the buyers and work it out between *themselves .?

Unlike your mob we treat farmers as adults able to make their *own choices. If they want to be farmers producers exporters good..
Some wont. Some Will. Some will only want to sell stock at a stable better prise.. That Is up to them to discuss direct with delegates from Saudi ,Iran or wherever they are from - not me or you.

Its not set in stone . Stop treating farmers like basket cases. Stop trying to control them.

Maybe they will decide to form co-ops and two out of twenty *will want to do they course.-
BUT they don’t have to – which was your first *bitch.

If you were as knowledgeable as you make out you would *know foreign companies send their blokes to do the course JUST to hold a export license.

We have plenty of export licenses to sign people up as a second person for that matter. Its not the problem.

The difference is these buyers are not selling- the meat- they are *not middle men. They are the buyers for their respective companies to feed people.

*They are just flogging you livestock, like any other deal that farmers do, of
flogging livestock to a buyer.*

If that’s *all they want that’s ok too- with no middle man selling direct- they still win.
OR they can pay for their *own transport and send them to yards. Their choice not ours.

I am offended by your comment they might not get paid- Our President was Mr Howards advisor for ten years and deeply honorable.

Wonderful human being * actually in WA but that is all you have in common.

Now Yabby, I know you think your being clever & fishing for the industry- but pls know in a few weeks our new web site will be up.
As I said, I dont do business on the net.
Anyway - your just full of it.

Where is your knitting.

LOL Gertrude, frankly I don't care what you do. But if you make
claims on OLO, as an informed skeptic who knows something about the
livestock and meat industries, I will shoot holes in your claims
if there are holes, as I do with other subjects that I discuss on
OLO.

I have pointed out a fact, every exporter needs Ausmeat accreditation
or they are not the exporter, somebody else is. That is the law.
Find ways around the law, but that fact will not change.

If you really want to get this thing up and running, take some advice
from the large corporations and how they do things with overseas
markets. They make sure that buyers have large amounts of skin
in the game, so that if the going gets rough, the buyers have something to lose and local investors are not left holding the baby.

If the Arabs really want to buy that tough beef from the stations
up north and want some food security, it is easily within their
financial capacity to invest 50-100 million$ in a couple of abattoirs.
You can then buy all the cattle that you wish, as long as you pay
as much as other markets pay.

Don't expect farmers or pastoralists to do it. They have enough
skin in the game, investing in their properties. Besides, most
are mortgaged to the roof anyhow.

Yabby

I have tried my best to answer your questions on here but your not adverse with halal or exports. That much is clear. Also, unlike you i do not claim to be the only one to have any input. That is why I work with Mr Howards former advisor of many years and so many experienced clever people. All in all there are well over three hundred people involved and aaco just for one agree it will work. However like most things it does require some government support.
No Yabby, i cant do it on my own true. However it is my programe that is supported by people who have been involved in meat exports on a large scale for over 20 years.
We work together- Just one of those people is Mr Branko. He posted on OLO a couple of times. You accused him of being myself.
He posted his meat export web site with his contact details.
You were too gutless to email him even with a sorry mate.
But anytime you wish you may ask him how he got into Halal meat exports. He will not mind and unlike some is a straight up front bloke.

I prefer not to waste my time posting you . Its pointless and a bore

a597

I haven't answered you because i already posted the Temple Grandin book link up the top. Also because it should be clear to you that I am a lady whom cares about animals and i see no reason to ask me that question. I left a post a few months ago to which i responded i would like to talk to you. You didnt follow the link provided or the contact number. You made no mention in your posts either.
While you dont care to do anything ( agreed) i find to ignore the message is quite rude.

Now I have had enough i people trying to dump on me because they are bored lonely unhappy whatever. Had enough of sadistic negative behavior.

Truth is I could answer your question but your clearly very insensitive. Your a bloke whos worked in plants. I am a lady whos trying to stop live exports by opening more abattoirs in Australia/
I dont slaughter animals myself.

What I am particularly annoyed about is there is no need to ask ME that question.

One negative bastard devoid of any positive comments is enough for me. Negative miserable pieces of @ are everywhere in life- I dont say this is my best post but its honest

It was not unions, or live export, that caused the closure of export abattoirs, it was American import standards. The standard of abattoirs were continually being upgraded, under the instruction of American vets. The final straw was the abolition of all timber in and around the abattoir premises. Holding yards had to be all steel, walkways and internal construction was to be stainless steel.
Many of the older abattoirs were constructed of lots of timber.
The businesses were given five years to comply,or no more export.
Most elected to close, considering the costs involved.
One in particular was erected during the world war and went as far as completely timber chillers and freezers, with sawdust used as insulation.

a597
First of all i am sorry I snapped but Yabbys smart arse nasty negativity has finally got to me. I cant stand negativity. Some same you cant - i say why not and do it. Also the old saying if you cant say something nice- shut up.

Yes USA still drives the trade $ and they both played a big part years ago. I sent your question off to the head of AVA.
Anyway, how was your traveling & have you settled into a new location yet?

Let be know how your doing and it would be nice just to chat about things other than animals suffering.

Much nicer than talking to Mr misery mumbles no can do everything is negative i assure you. Once again thanks for your informative contribution ( as always)
Take care Mr

a597

PS pls check out what you can follow of our programe up above if you have time and give me your opinion.

I will be unsettled until the 23.8.11. After 8 months of traveling, i will be home. I will have a read and see what i get from it. This country needs a revolution in communications, I have witnessed one break down and two roll overs, no communication at all.

Good evening a597,

Well I hope your keeping nice and warm tripping about in this winter. How right you are this country needs a revolution in communications. I am living & witnessing one long continued break down and two roll over’s, no communication at all from Federal to State Ministers and departments and its a nightmare. I fear serious results to come. Last week speaking with the head ex of Daff and trying to address concerns with a particular council holding accreditation's he asked me who iccv afif sichma were. Keeping in mind this is the dept that approves the darn things- its a worry.
We need one head department- preferable independent of government with somehow a barrier to corruption and old fashioned school boys. Wise but fair that demand respect . People who are not too gutless to say son welcome to Australia. Mind you p80% are no problem but i fear for Australia with the other 20 % in regards more than meat.
It doesn’t matter where you go- state – or fed nobody has got a clue about anything or what’s going on. Worse still that don’t even know what should be going on.

Ok travel well & I will be seeing u next tim

<<Hello Grateful & welcome to OLO are you convinced RSPCA are wrong?

http://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.slaugh.html

I am sure you will like to read the world accepted methods on many slaughter methods from world wide accepted Halal slaughter abattoirs.
So much more has been done since Germany.
>>

Hi Kerryanne,

Your article was informative. The message i took from it was the barbarity does not reside in whether the animal's throat is cut or it is stunned, but in how the animal is handled leading up to the animal death. The description of the slaughter using the conveyer restrainer was amazing. Even after the animals throat was cut it remained oblivious to its fate.

Islam insists that the manner of slaughter should be that which is least painful to the animal. Islam requires that the slaughtering instrument not be sharpened in front of the animal. Islam also prohibits the slaughtering of one animal in front of another.

You'll find hadith in support of these statements here: http://www.islamawareness.net/Animals/animals3.html

The practices filmed in some Indonesia slaughter houses were counter to the Shariah. You may recall the footage with one cow visibly anxious and shivering.

This is how the Prophet responded to a similar situation:

"Do you intend inflicting death on the animal twice — once by sharpening the knife within its sight, and once by cutting its throat?"

The same web site uses the following hadith to argue for some form of stunning prior to cutting the throat:

"Allah, Who is Blessed and Exalted, has prescribed benevolence toward everything and has ordained that everything be done in the right way; so when you must kill a living being, do it in the proper way — when you slaughter an animal, use the best method and sharpen your knife so as to cause as little pain as possible."

On the other hand, the experiments with the double rail conveyer restraint (in your article p4-5) shows that cutting the throat without prior stunning does not have to be painful.

salaams

Hi Kerryanne,

I've just had a chance to read your posts. Thanks for a number of interest posts and web sites. You stated: "I think it would be wise to reach a compromise - something like agreement to pre stun in Australia& work towards funding proper animal welfare together off shore as well- dont you.?"

I can agree that as a practical issue, Indonesia is not in a position to install the sort of equipment required to meet the strict standards of animal welfare demanded of the Shariah under modern conditions of mass production. Under these conditions I'm sure there would be a strong case for pre-stunning as is done in Australia.

salaams

Dear grateful,

Your welcome , & I apologize in my delay in responding. Yes handling & pre stress is very important for beast and meat alike. I received a email from the grand lady herself with her programs.
Before I leave the thread I will copy to you . I am sure she won’t mind . Helping to make slaughter as kind as possible is her life. I should also tell you I understand Halal & I am working to open more Abattoirs in Australia.
You are aware of course of New Zealand and other countries who have changed the playing field somewhat. You would know as well combined with shifts in other countries going in different directions Halal Australia needs to make a move now. ( I hope you know what I am referring to) I assume your versed on this topic.)

The way I see it is this- Just as the farmers tend to stick to themselves- so too do Islamic councils. Probably because of the comparative nature of acquiring the certifications . I suppose if there is one thing to come out of all this mess in WA & NT with live exports its actually got farmers talking to one another. Many of them are saying they want more abattoirs built. This is an opportunity for Halal in Australia but if we sit back too long Australia will forever be just the supplier of raw material- live exports. Well actually no- it will be worse than that grateful because there isn’t any doubt live exports will be banned sooner or later.
If its banned graziers and farmers will walk off. There will be no rushing around the build abattoirs then it will be too late. Australia has more Halal accreditation authorities than most countries.
There simply won’t be enough product if that happens grateful. What is required here is a meeting of minds and accreditation authorities to work together to bring about best results for Australia Halal together with Animal Welfare.



TBC

continued

We will never achieve that in Australia by raising Sharia Law. It simply won’t work here. Nor will we open even one more Halal plant with a battle between RSPCA AVA standards and Islamic standards.

There is a programme ready for investors into plants throughout Australia This means of course a fair share for all BUT we can’t get the funding with inta fighting over Halal.
I am NOT saying Muslims have a lot of inta fighting- I am saying everybody does. Doesn't matter if its Animal Welfare groups or world food aid agencies.
If we work sensibly we will get good results & if not cant you just imagine the drama and problems in front of us.What we have just seen in Indonesia could be played out here before our eyes & why not if we got it wrong- rightfully so.

We can either do it right ( and when I say right) I Mean we can start a holy war and get nowhere or get on and open many more abattoirs which is good for Australian Halal product.

I wont get involved with the 600 different versions of whats Halal. Lets face it nobody can agree from Mosque to Mosque even.

We have so many different Muslim people from all parts of the world its impossible to please everybody and I am sure your aware of this.

There is nothing that turns investors off more than insecurity about Halal and concern it fly's in the face of that particular Animal Welfare body of that country is opposing the slaughter methods of a plant. It can shut plants down- & it will in the future of that I am sure. Investors are very aware of that and looking for areas to build with accreditation's that comply with Australia, its as simple as that.
TBC

TB

by grateful- said

*I can agree that as a practical issue, Indonesia is not in a position to install the sort of equipment required to meet the strict standards of animal welfare demanded of the Shariah under modern conditions of mass production. Under these conditions I'm sure there would be a strong case for pre-stunning as is done in Australia.*

Yes grateful. You are most wise and I am sure you will understand the way we do best is to oppose Animals not being stunned in Indonesia. This is our argument for more Halal abattoirs to be built in Australia.
Let’s face it business is business in any trade and these shipping agents and Elders landmark are taking our Australia Halal business from us right under our noises. This is the most important time now for all Islamic councils to speak up & demand the cruel live exports stops and we slaughter here and stun Animals before their throats are cut. If we don’t argue that- we have no argument- against them going live- Do you understand?
Pls think: before you respond ok. Can you see what I am saying? If Muslims agree its ok for it to be done that way then we won’t ever have a proper Halal system like they are building in NZ. As well the animals will be shipped alive from here to timbuck two ( you know that)

It depends what your interests are- ie opening more abattoirs or just inta fighting with main stream public to make a point.

I am purely interested in the business side with proper animal welfare standards .

What are your interests in this ?

salaams