Kanne people with addictions turn to others for help, however, at best others can only manage a problem as it's the addict that is the only one who can fix a problem.

Trouble is if you have nothing, as many do, then you don't miss it so as long as they have a roof over their head and something to eat, often they see no need to change and they all to often now how to work the system

As for the death pen, well my view is that if a murderer is caught red handed then why not.

Circumstantial evidence does not cut it for me though. They must be caught in the act and it must be pre meditated.

Another thing that need attention Is child support. Boy that one causes some problems.

*So again you plead poor on behalf of your local sheep farmers. Are the flocks down to a sustainable size yet?*

No rstuart, I am stating the reality for a highly efficient industry
which we have in WA. That industry produces wheat, canola, barley,
oats, lupins, beef, mutton, lamb and wool. It can be benchmarked
globally to show its efficiency, against agriculture from around
the world. It exports nearly everything produced, for the benefit
of all you Australians who are unable to be efficient enough to
compete on global markets. All you can seemingly do is bang more
nails in its coffin. So I object.

*they will be one of those getting a little extra in their pocket from the government.*

They will be taxed extra on their production inputs, unlike their
competitors in the USA, Canada, Ukraine, Europe, etc.

*No, it isn't just feel good. It is actually doing something about several problems ahead of us.*

Of course its feelgood rstuart, for its not going to change anything
in the global scheme of things. Its not like you are suggesting
financing contraception for the third world or something useful like
that.

Simply adding to production costs of highly competitive industries
to make them less competitive, is hardly smart thinking. So tax
all taxpayers if you want to be fair. Those who earn more pay more.
In this case, you are simply taxing those who don't have enough
votes to complain at the ballot box. Tyranny by the majortiy, most
of whom have been bought off with bribes.

@ Yabby:

I'm a little intrigued that 75% of these highly efficient farmers lost money last year. What about over tha last 10 years?

I would have thought that if even highly efficient industry consistently loses money, then it's unsustainable. Sounds to me like you're pleading for indirect subsidisation.

@Yabby: It exports nearly everything produced, for the benefit of all you Australians who are unable to be efficient enough to compete on global markets.

How sad Yabby, it seems those farmers also belong in the "unable to be efficient enough to compete on global markets" bucket.

@Yabby: All you can seemingly do is bang more nails in its coffin.

No Yabby, I didn't bang the nail in its coffin. Neither has the carbon tax for that matter, as it doesn't exist. And when it does exist it will be at most a minor irritant. Nor the government. Nor the greenies. It's pretty clear who has gutted our export industries. Its mining. By being a wildly successful.

@Yabby: Of course its feelgood rstuart, for its not going to change anything in the global scheme of things. Its not like you are suggesting financing contraception for the third world or something useful like that.

Same argument unfortunately applies to anything Australia does directly Yabby. We are too small to make a difference, even in exporting contraception. So by your logic I gather that means we should do nothing. The same argument applies to voting. As we all full well know, it is very unlikely our single vote will change the outcome. So I guess we all shouldn't vote, eh?

Well, I see Australia taking this small step as rather like casting a vote. And despite all your whinging on how the carbon is going to cripple you, it is very small step, especially compared to the damage the the mining industry has already done to the other exporting industries.

*I'm a little intrigued that 75% of these highly efficient farmers lost money last year. What about over tha last 10 years?*

Yes Morgan, we had our lowest rainfall on record in the West.
Last time I saw a statistic, returns in agriculture from agriculture
of actually growing things, averaged around 1% over the years. It
is a tough industry, every year something. One year its early frosts,
then commodity prices below the cost of production, then floods,
or something. The industry does not want subsidies, but it doesen't
want extra unneeded costs either. People tend to hang in there as
for many of them, its taken 2-3 generations to build what they have.
They are extremely tough and resilient, but making it even harder
for them, is plain stupidity. We should be proud of these people,
they work far harder then you or I.

*And when it does exist it will be at most a minor irritant.*

No, it will be yet another unneeded cost. Lumbered on most efficient,
those who are hanging on exporting, which most of you are unable
to do.

*We are too small to make a difference, even in exporting contraception.*

Not really rstuart. We spend 4 billion on third world aid, none of
it on family planning for the third world. Even a billion would make
a huge difference for women who can't afford it.

*especially compared to the damage the the mining industry has already done to the other exporting industries*

Hang on, a high Dollar also lowers many input costs. Unlike your
new tax, which achieves absolutaly bugger all except serve the
Green Kumbayah political agenda. Why not tax high earning public servants
like Bob Brown more? Why efficient exporters already struggling
with droughts, disease, frosts, floods, topsy turvey global markets,
and all the rest?

Just because you can, that is why. They are out in the backblocks,
working their arses off to keep the wheels on the cart. Whilst you
lot sit around contemplating your navels, inventing rules to take
their money, add to their production costs for absolutaly no good-reason.

@Yabby: Whilst you lot sit around contemplating your navels, inventing rules to take their money, add to their production costs for absolutaly no good-reason.

Ahh, that statement makes your feelings about us city folk clear at last. I'm glad to see it.

@Yabby: Not really rstuart. We spend 4 billion on third world aid, none of it on family planning for the third world. Even a billion would make a huge difference for women who can't afford it.

So everyone claims. But it isn't true of course. You make contraception available, but that doesn't give them the power to use it. That only thing that does that is education. Still, 0% of the aid budget going to contraception is laughable.

@Yabby: Hang on, a high Dollar also lowers many input costs

As it did for fertiliser costs, and petroleum costs, and equipment costs as most of it isn't manufactured here. It reduced those costs over 30% in the last 5 years. And you are telling me those farmers are still loosing money. I wonder how that could be so? It must be the bloody weather. If they aren't complaining about us city slickers, it's always the weather that's got it in for them.

For what it's worth, the reducing cost of imports doesn't help exporters overly. It should be obvious that if you import something have a fiddle with it than sell it again, whatever it costs in $AUD doesn't matter.