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The Forum > General Discussion > The flood, mining tax, and carbon taxes, putting the brakes on Australia's economy.

The flood, mining tax, and carbon taxes, putting the brakes on Australia's economy.

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"PRIME Minister Julia Gillard's carbon pricing sales pitch has been dealt a fresh blow after one of the country's top retailers declared the policy was partly to blame for a dramatic collapse in consumer confidence."

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/consumer-woes-fresh-blow-to-gillard/story-e6frf7jx-1226094929271

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/opinion/confidence-in-gillards-competence-is-ebbing/story-e6frg9px-1226095578092

Concern is turning to frustrated anger, with the carbon tax seen as more unwelcome evidence of Canberra's inability to comprehend the forces operating in business and the economy.

That includes a much gloomier outlook for business conditions than national economic statistics indicate. There is a growing fear that the government is, unwittingly, risking the very advantages that have caused the Australian economy to perform so much better than other developed economies. There is also a fear that it is totally unprepared for the problems that will result from ill-considered, ill-timed and internally inconsistent policies -- let alone the very real prospect of more big global economic shocks.

The Westpac-Melbourne Institute index of consumer sentiment last week showing a dramatic fall in consumer confidence is not an aberration -- at least to those who operate outside Canberra. It is mirrored by the mood in small and big businesses, which understand that job shedding is the next likely response to try to curtail costs.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 16 July 2011 6:42:54 AM
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SM,

Wake Up! In case you don't realize it's the end of the financial year!
And stores are desperate to sell their stock. That's why they have
"End of Year Sales." The consumers on the other hand have to fill out their tax returns and figure out how to pay the tax that will be owing. You know things like the GST (introduced by the Libs) that everyone has to pay, annual increases adjusted with the cost of living icnreases, all add to the annual expense. The credit card debt has been reported to be in the billions. Maybe people are waking up and realising they can't keep spending the way they did in the past.
After all the taxes have been paid - and the consumers can assess thei savings, spending will resume. That's an annual occurrence.

Scare and fear mongering doesn't do the Liberals any credit. Don't you ever use any logic in your arguments? My ten-year old nephew has a better grasp of the reality.
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 16 July 2011 4:38:33 PM
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Lexi,

I'm disappointed! Your argument is that there is no problem and everyone else is making it up?

Insolvencies are down, sales figures are far worse than last year, tourism is suffering. Or is your solution just to pretend it isn't happening? Try providing a link that contradicts me.

The point of this thread, and the articles I linked is that the timing of this tax is the very worst possible. Just as the high dollar is hurting, the carbon tax will punish these sectors even more.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 16 July 2011 5:12:50 PM
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cum hoc ergo propter hoc
Posted by Bugsy, Saturday, 16 July 2011 5:22:07 PM
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@ Bugsy:

Quite so, but somehow I doubt he'll use the same fallacy to attribute the predicted interest rate cut to the government's actions -

http://www.news.com.au/money/interest-rates/westpac-changes-prediction-of-interest-rate-rise-to-cut-in-december-but-others-disagree/story-e6frfmn0-1226095519473
Posted by morganzola, Saturday, 16 July 2011 5:40:18 PM
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Morganzola,

Interest rates are dropped when the economy tanks. Remember the GFC?

http://www.theage.com.au/national/good-news-for-bad-reason-interest-rates-tipped-to-fall-20110715-1hi3i.html

"THE collapse in consumer sentiment and increasing risk of a European sovereign debt default have prompted Australia's second-biggest bank to forecast the Reserve Bank will cut interest rates by one percentage point by the end of September 2012.
Interest rates were ''too high'' given the weakness in non-mining parts of the economy, according to the chief economist at Westpac, Bill Evans, who predicted the Reserve would deliver moribund consumers a cut of one quarter of a percentage point at its December meeting. Further three-month instalments of 0.25 percentage point cuts would follow, he predicted. ''While the catalyst for the first rate cut is likely to come from offshore, we do not expect it to be a one-off,'' he said. ''Interest rates are too high in Australia given the state of the non-mining sectors of the domestic economy and a downward adjustment is required to avert a damaging round of contraction.''

http://www.smh.com.au/business/westpac-rates-to-fall-1-20110715-1hi9s.html
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 16 July 2011 6:42:30 PM
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Shadow Minister,

Ok Shadow Minister- the floor is yours. You tell us what you want everybody to do. Apart from to vote for Tony Abbott. Give me *your concept your policy's- not Tony s to keep this country floating .

Now remember now yours* I dont want to hear Julie- or Tony lets get down to policy's

From 1 to ten go=
Posted by Kerryanne, Saturday, 16 July 2011 7:07:30 PM
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Dear Kerryanne,

A great big hug from me.
You go girl!
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 16 July 2011 7:41:45 PM
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*Scare and fear mongering doesn't do the Liberals any credit*

Lexi, sounds more like you have been hoodwinked by a feelgood tax
and your vote has been bought, so that you agree with it.

The devil as always, is in the details. So if you and hubby were
to lash out on another overseas jaunt, or spend endless hours watching
the energy intensive plasma, the govt will compensate you.

Meantime if I grow 100 tonnes of wheat and try to ship it to the
ports, or haul back lime and other fertiliser to improve the soil,
I am slugged with carbon tax, no compensation, just bad luck for
farmers as there arn't enough of them to make buying their vote
worth bothering about.

Now explain to me how that is fair or why I should sing the praises
of this new feelgood tax?
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 16 July 2011 8:29:13 PM
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I have been warning you all for some time now but you have all just laughed at me.

I am there, at the cold face, I see trends before you do or before the media gets wind.

I told you that the easiest way to stall an economy was to create uncertainty and this is exactly wha this incompetent fool and her monkeys have done.

Just recently, when we thought they couldn't possibly do anything else, they stuffed the live export trade. Again, creating uncertainty with those involved like, farmers, boat owners truck owners and drives, the list goes on. These are all consumers and they were all uncertain due to incompetence of government.

Then they decided to grant another pay rise, despite knowing most sectors couldn't afford it, in fact, many business owners had gone backwards in the previous six months.

Now we have the carbon tax that, among other things will place our businesses at an unfair advantage, at a time when our dollar is doing at good job at that it's self.

So, instead of creating this merry-go round of a tax, why not just commit the billions it will cost to implement and monitor this tax straight towards renewables. After all,is this not the aim of this tax in the first place.

To think that after this there are still those who can't see the wrong, mystifies be beyond belief.

You labor puppets are simply feeding the egos o these fools who are ruining our country. Take. Bow!
Posted by rehctub, Sunday, 17 July 2011 6:00:39 AM
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Kerryanne,

Is this a new tactic? I see that you are issuing the same challange to multiple people.

However, I will then challenge you to produce a similar number of policies, obviously not simply a defence of the existing flawed labor policies.

Here are 5 for starters.

1-Reinstate the Pacific solution with TPVs
2-Review the fair work act, especially with regards to the causes of the 2% productivity drop. Re introduce AWAs.
3-Look at introducing nuclear power. Particularly building them at the sites of the brown coal stations in the La Trobe valley and SA where the existing infrastructure will reduce the costs.
4-Scrap the 3rd party insurance, and include it in the price of petrol. i.e. the further you drive and bigger car you drive, the more insurance you pay.
5-Make Child care 100% tax deductible to enable working mums back to work. Also look at making child care less expensive.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 17 July 2011 6:15:10 AM
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Here’s an comical little conundrum:

It is apparent “DESPICABLE” for Tony Abbot to link the Qld floods to the carbon tax.

"TREASURER Wayne Swan has described Opposition Leader Tony Abbott as 'despicable' for linking the carbon tax to floods which devastated parts of Queensland earlier this year.”
http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/abbott-despicable-on-carbon-tax/story-fn6ck4a4-1226095863806

But, it’s quite Ok to use the Qld floods to spruik climate change action ( read: carbon tax)

“AUSTRALIAN Greens leader Bob Brown again has linked the coal industry to the summer's natural disasters, including the Perth bushfires”
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/breaking-news/greens-links-coal-industry-to-summers-natural-disasters/story-e6frea73-1226002856826
VICTORIAN Governor David de Kretser has blamed climate change for the floods sweeping Australia.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/victorian-governor-david-de-kretser-blames-floods-on-climate-change/story-e6frf7kx-1225990444614

“Curiouser and curiouser and comical!
Posted by SPQR, Sunday, 17 July 2011 7:30:27 AM
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It is not the floods et al. It is mr rabbot and his fearmongering and talking down of this country. All his doom and gloom, sky is falling rhetoric is making people stop spending, investing and consuming and as a consequence retail, stocks and industry are suffering. Like keating said the other day rabbots only offering is "give me the job or Ill wreck the place".
"People skills" is a powerhungry traitor out to wreck this country in his selfish quest for power.
Posted by mikk, Sunday, 17 July 2011 10:12:22 AM
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Yabby: Meantime if I grow 100 tonnes of wheat and try to ship it to the ports, or haul back lime and other fertiliser to improve the soil, I am slugged with carbon tax, no compensation, just bad luck for farmers as there arn't enough of them to make buying their vote worth bothering about.

And after having his bitch about how unfair it all is, life goes on, night follows day, and the farmer raises his prices. And as a consequence surprise surprise is none the worse off.

You know after all the bitching that is going on from those right, I have trouble believing they actually believe a word of their professed philosophies. The reality is the carbon tax is in fact a tax cut, meaning it has reduced how much money government has to spend. Assuming Labor brings the budget back into surplus as it promises (and it is looking likely), this has to mean a smaller government providing less services.

This is exactly what the right would have the government do, isn't it? Yet here you all are, complaining about how unfair it all is.
Posted by rstuart, Sunday, 17 July 2011 10:41:13 AM
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@Shadow Minister: The point of this thread, and the articles I linked is that the timing of this tax is the very worst possible. Just as the high dollar is hurting, the carbon tax will punish these sectors even more.

How do you know Shadow? It ain't going to come into effect for a year or so. Have you got a crystal ball or something that can see so far ahead?
Posted by rstuart, Sunday, 17 July 2011 10:46:11 AM
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SM, the squawking and panicky support for all things Julia from the warmertariat is increasingly irrational. That’s because it has nowhere else to go.

But it is all a blind distraction; it’s not actually support for Julia, the ALP, the Greens the independents or the CO2 Tax. What they fear most is the “opposition” because it is the opposition that will bring down the House of Carbon and along with it, reputations and revenue streams.

The warmertariat will then have to face the reality of lost careers, credibility, respect and most fearsome of all, ridicule.

It is instructive that the whole basis behind the warmertariat has been 20 years of alarmism and scaremongering. When all they can offer now in their own defense; is to point the fickle finger of scaremongering at the skeptics, we should be very grateful and say to them, “Is that it”?
Posted by spindoc, Sunday, 17 July 2011 11:51:05 AM
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< The flood, mining tax, and carbon taxes, putting the brakes on Australia's economy. >

So is ‘putting the brakes on the economy’ necessarily a bad thing?

I think it is a mixed picture, as with the word ‘growth’, which has good and bad components as I have elucidated many times on OLO.

Firstly, we want to gear our economy away from endless expansionism and towards sustainability. The carbon tax is aimed in that direction, sort of.

We also want the profits from our resources to be better shared amongst us all and to equate to quality-of-life improvements better than they currently do. The mining tax is aimed that direction, sort of.

There are powerful forces telling us that anything that dents economic growth or consumer confidence or overseas investment must be bad. Well, all I’m saying is that it is much more complicated than that, and my first indication when the rusted-on pro-growth-forever brigade tells us this, it is likely to be, at least in the long term, just the other way around.
Posted by Ludwig, Sunday, 17 July 2011 12:15:21 PM
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SM
Report on your policies from the PMs desk

Here are 5 for starters.

1-Reinstate the Pacific solution with TPVs *GRANTED
2-Review the fair work act, especially with regards to the causes of the 2% productivity drop. Re introduce AWAs. *GRANTED
3-Look at introducing nuclear power. REGECTED
4-Scrap the 3rd party insurance, and include it in the price of petrol. i.e. the further you drive and bigger car you drive, the more insurance you pay. *GRANTED
5-Make Child care 100% tax deductible to enable working mums back to work. Also look at making child care less expensive. REGECTED

Restart
Re your comments to Yabby-

*And after having his bitch .*
What planet do you live on Restart. Aussie farmers have to compete on the world market Tariffs. No they can’t just raise their prices.
You want to talk about bitching mate while the city slickers want pay rises and free child care- God dam wimps.

Farmers growing FOOD ( not Animals) but crops should be exempt. Allow me to tell you what happens to Yabby’s crop + others.
It goes through the agent who deal with the foreign desk& If its going to ME etc somebody there- or elsewhere pull out their accreditation book and add from 2% upwards on top + the next dealer gets his on top.
The only way I can think to help a bit is to set up an accreditation system here for farmers. That would work best if the farms themselves were accredited i suppose. There is NOTHING anybody can do if its going to places like Japan. They are just stuck with the problems set up by Howard because of dropping tariffs . I suppose it might be a motivation and give me something to bargain with on my pet topic .
So if a farmer gets an extra % on crops he drops live exports. That could work. Worth a try.

But restart you should never tell a Aussie crop farmer to stop bitching. Farmers have suffered more than anybody in this country
Posted by Kerryanne, Sunday, 17 July 2011 12:23:40 PM
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*life goes on, night follows day, and the farmer raises his prices*

Ah that would be wonderful Rstuart, but for most of what they produce,
farmers are price takers. The international price of wheat has
many variables and extra tax for carbon is not one of them. So its
pay up or stop growing the stuff for the farmer. Next they will
complaining that there is a food shortage.

Unlike our city slicker voters, most of whom don't compete on
global markets and who will clearly be compensated for their
higher power costs. So they will be taking money from me, to give
to you, rstuart. For no good reason. You might think that is
fair, but I happen to disagree.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 17 July 2011 5:14:39 PM
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[Deleted for abuse].
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 17 July 2011 5:33:17 PM
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[Deleted for abuse].
Posted by Kerryanne, Sunday, 17 July 2011 6:35:51 PM
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@Yabby: Ah that would be wonderful Rstuart, but for most of what they produce, farmers are price takers.

Nice turn of phrase Yabby. But you know it is nothing more than that. If you were offered nothing, would you take it? Didn't think so.

And both you and I know the effects of the carbon price will be negligible compared to currency fluctuations.

And while we are on that subject, the appreciation of the Australia currency has means we have, wait for it, 8% more. Currency has increased by 25% 2006..2010 http://www.rba.gov.au/chart-pack/pdf/chart-pack.pdf . Value of earned from food exports increased in the same period http://adl.brs.gov.au/data/warehouse/pe_abares99001766/AC10.4_Dec_REPORT_part1_12a.doc page 22. And you say we are price takers Yabby.

@Yabby: So they will be taking money from me, to give to you, rstuart.

They are taking money from me too, Yabby. At least that is what their web site tells me.
Posted by rstuart, Sunday, 17 July 2011 6:37:36 PM
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Kanne,you are such a toss.

Women often want to return to work but child care makes it simple not worth it.

Meanwhile, the good old single mum gets to go to the movies or play the pokies knowing full well someone else has picked up the tab for minding the kids.

Perhaps you should consider a Career in politics cause you would fit in just fine at the moment.
Posted by rehctub, Sunday, 17 July 2011 7:33:19 PM
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*But you know it is nothing more than that. If you were offered nothing, would you take it? Didn't think so.*

Indeed rstuart, I have given away a truckload of 400 sheep. At the
time there was no market, they had to go, so it was cheaper then
shooting them and digging a hole.

So farmers have to accept global market prices, take it or leave it.
As storage costs money, they can cut their losses, hope things
change next year, or do something else with the land. No wonder
that two thirds of the farmers in my area have left the land since
I've been here.

Any extra costs loaded onto farmers locally, they wear, unlike most
of our city slicker cousins, who simply pass it on.

Yes, commodity prices have picked up over the last 4-5 years. But
from woefully low prices, often below the cost of production. Then
they wondered why there was a grain shortage a couple of years later.

So your premise of farmers passing on costs, is fately flawed I am
afraid.

*And both you and I know the effects of the carbon price will be negligible compared to currency fluctuations.*

Currency fluctuations come with advantages, like lower fertiliser,
machinery and herbicide costs. Carbon taxes come with no benefits
to farmers, they are once again just there to be milked by our
mollycoddled city folk.

*They are taking money from me too, Yabby.*

Ah, ya poor thing, rstuart :) You of course are compensated or simply
pass on your costs. Not so for farmers, which was my point
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 17 July 2011 8:24:17 PM
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**Meanwhile, the good old single mum gets to go to the movies or play the pokies knowing full well someone else has picked up the tab for minding the kids.**

rehctub,

How disappointing- after reading some of your posts I thought you were a very switched on butcher but I must have mistaken you for somebody else.

Had you of read my policys you would see there was NO hand outs for single mothers.

More so - it went much further to address the problem by introducing licenses before people- single Mums included have kids at all.

I do not agree with anybody single or married having kids they cant afford to keep 100% themselves. Nor do I support maternity leave free child care etc. In other words you have them you keep them regardless if your married single.
Our foster care system are full of both. These kids live that way & go onto having their own who also live that way.
They think its normal. Not top mention the abuse to these kiddies & the costs

PS were you not complaining that your wife wanted more than $10.00 per week towards child care- or was that another person?
Posted by Kerryanne, Sunday, 17 July 2011 9:22:55 PM
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Kerryanne, although I agree with you about not funding single mothers, along with the many other bludgers, I'm afraid you will have to study some biology.

It's all well & good to demand a licence to breed, but I have found that when girls & boys go out to play, breeding is something that just happens, often to the dismay of those involved.

Would you please just confirm that you are not advocating enforced abortion
Posted by Hasbeen, Sunday, 17 July 2011 10:21:02 PM
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KA,

First off you resort to abuse. Secondly you don't even have the ability to understand what I wrote. I said 100% tax deductible. If you are not earning any thing, there is no tax to deduct.

As for your suggested policies, all they indicate is zero understanding of economics, and seemed more about a fantasy role play where you were PM. Sorry if I leave you alone in your cushion fort.

I see Juliar is not succeeding in selling her carbon tax, as labor's support has now dropped to 26% and Abbott is now far ahead as preferred PM.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 18 July 2011 5:28:32 AM
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Kanne you have my interest. What policies?

I have always though along the same lines, your kids, you pay for them.
Posted by rehctub, Monday, 18 July 2011 6:24:01 AM
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It's always 'the wrong time' for a workers pay rise, for a new tax, for cutting, for increasing, for doing something, for doing nothing.

Tourism is down because the high dollar allows people to go overseas and see something beyond the Australian ideal of the big banana, the big pineapple, the big crayfish, the big crab, the big sheep, the big meatant, the big potato and so on. Let's face it, 'other places' are always more attractive than here, until you get to the age of being a grey gypsy and all your money is ploughed into a ridiculous sized FWD and a 49 foot caravan, for two people.

I see no reason why polluters should not pay for the harm they do SM. And, as you'd know, compamies never pay tax anyway, all their costs are passed on to punters, so it's us who pays for everything. Anyway, won't they be taking these new costs off their tax bills?

I suggest you have a read of Amory Lovins, a US capitalist who bemoans the laziness of capitalism in wasting profits by being dirt producers. Look him up, and Anderson Carpets in Canada:http://www.interfaceglobal.com/

Check out this 'mission statement' that would make Abbott reach for his garlic and crucifix:

Achieving Mission Zero™
Interface’s dedication to sustainability has evolved into the company’s Mission Zero™ commitment — our promise to eliminate any negative impact Interface has on the environment by 2020.
Posted by The Blue Cross, Monday, 18 July 2011 8:46:14 AM
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The b cross
Have you even considered that it is us who are the poluters. After all the ones you want to tax are simply providing for the punters as you call us.

Tax us, them we won't use as much so these big poluters won't polite as much.

It is important to know though that I opposed t a tax, unless o cause the rest of the world contributes equally
Posted by rehctub, Monday, 18 July 2011 7:03:39 PM
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@Yabby: Indeed rstuart, I have given away a truckload of 400 sheep. ... No wonder that two thirds of the farmers in my area have left the land since I've been here.

Both you and I know it's "no wonder" because they are sheep farmers. It's cruel I know, but this oversupply of sheep was a mess of the sheep industries own making. The AWB was one big ponzi scheme.

@Yabby: Yes, commodity prices have picked up over the last 4-5 years.

Enough for Australia to be earn 8% for its food exports while in a sever drought along the eastern seaboard, and in the face of a 25% currency rise. Geezz, I wish my businesses had faced market conditions that tough. Price takers indeed. This rise and rise of the good times for farmers is probably going to continue until the world can no longer afford to feed itself. At this rate you'd better watch out - it won't be long before some galah suggests a super profits tax on farmers.

@Yabby: Ah, ya poor thing, rstuart :) You of course are compensated or simply pass on your costs. Not so for farmers, which was my point.

Sold my businesses and I am on a salary now Yabby, so sadly I don't get to pass the additional costs on. (I can just picture you wiping a tear from you face at the thought of this.) The extra costs aren't even a tax deduction, which it will be for you farmers.

And to cap it all off, should you be as hard up as you are making out, some of my carbon taxes will be paid as carbon tax relief to you.
Posted by rstuart, Monday, 18 July 2011 7:44:38 PM
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*this oversupply of sheep was a mess of the sheep industries own making. The AWB was one big ponzi scheme.*

Sheesh rstuart, agriculture is clearly not your forte. AWB sold
wheat and had little to do with sheep. The fact remains however
that farmers largely sell on global markets and have input costs
loaded with extra Australian charges. When we try and ship our
produce out of the country as fast as possible to avoid some of
these charges, many city slickers try to ban us from doing so.

Most Australian simply put their hand out and pass on their costs.
Not so for farmers.

*I wish my businesses had faced market conditions that tough*

So what was your actual return on capital, rstuart? In farming the
only really profitable thing is owning land over time. Producing from
it averages around 1%. For exactly this reason, I rely on off farm
investments, not on agriculture for a living. I do it for the lifestyle.
Australia treats its farmers like mugs, so it would be
foolish to invest more in the industry.

*I don't get to pass the additional costs on.*

You certainly do, rstuart. Julia, to gain your vote, will compensate
you for your increased costs. Not so for farmers facing the real world
out there.

So there we have it, rstuart. Meat exports taxed, grain exports taxed,
rstuart and co compensated to gain their vote.

All for what? So that city slickers can feel better about seemingly
saving the planet, when you and I know that China, India and others
will take no notice at all, just continue as they were.

The Greens preach little but Kumbaya politics, its sad that Julia
had to kowtow to them to gain office. Its the price we are all paying,
especially farmers, who are once again losers in the whole
scheme
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 18 July 2011 8:19:48 PM
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Shadow Minister
Correction I responded to yours. I told you these are my policy’s to which you couldn’t grasp. I am not caking ALP SM so i dont know where you got that from.

I am on neither side & i will post below some info you will like. I suggest you read things properly before jumping in.
http://www.oziz4oziz.com/restoring-prosperity---details.html

The ultimate union traitor was Australian Council of Trade Unions President Bob Hawke, who arranged disastrous union amalgamations that weakened the position of workers and delivered union leadership into the hands of ambitious academics and opportunists. Eventually, as Prime Minister, an ambition he achieved through media ownership deals with Kerry Packer and Rupert Murdoch, he destroyed an already useless Australian Constitution and made assuming the copulatory position before American Presidents a cornerstone of defence and economic policy. If journalist/authors such as John Pilger are to be believed, and there is ample reason to believe him, Hawke was at best a CIA and MI6-approved stooge.

No doubt, Kerry Packer and Rupert Murdoch smirked while Paul Keating cheerfully betrayed his old pal and mentor Bob Hawke,

In an event of hilarious political irony, John Howard, never known for originality, made a follow-up media ownership deal with Murdoch upon which both his predecessors slithered to power, evoking on-camera rage from Paul Keating. Howard went on to set industrial legislation that would eventually eliminate all meaningful worker’s rights (including the SC457 provision, the import of a suspected half a million foreign scabs).

Australia’s worst kept secret is that Kevin Rudd assured Rupert Murdoch and Dick Cheney that his grasp of Mandarin and experience as a diplomat in China qualified him to deliver Australia to China as its newest colony (the first conquest being NZ, and its handover being...& your always in such a hurry to get back into the forum and swipe at people I am sure you again won’t read it right through. I wont bother replying to you in future because i value my time.
http://www.oziz4oziz.com/how-australia-was-globalised.html
Posted by Kerryanne, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 12:56:56 AM
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Hasbeen,
I am not writing the policy on that. If think it would involved many experts- however I am saying it must be addressed.

rehctub, said
Kanne you have my interest. What policies?

*I have always though along the same lines, your kids, you pay for them.*

Perhaps yourself and hasbeen could suggest some policy’s. I raised it because i think welfare for this is becoming a serious issue for not only tax payers but the kids.

It won’t be Tony Abbotts policy’s that for sure. I would be interested to see what you both come up with cheers.

Yabby said-
AWB sold
wheat and had little to do with sheep. That Yabby is simply untrue. While they did wheat they were up to their necks in live exports after buying from westfarmers on October 23 2003
People should have been jailed over that – and now AWB have done what wesfarmers did- thinking they can remove the eye of the storm..

*many city slickers try to ban us from doing so.*
The only thing the public protest is live exports because its barbaric and takes jobs out of the country.

WA Government are of the opinion once its banned WA and NT will do very well.


rstuart,
*Sold my businesses and I am on a salary now Yabby, so sadly I don't get to pass the additional costs on.*

Hello rstuart,

Its clear you have little understand but may i ask you this. Your working how many hours a day in your paid job?
I don’t see why farmers cannot expect some compensation for the hours they work-- Would you care to take a guess maybe.
Also everything is more expensive. They have long distances to travel unlike us for shopping Drs and don’t forget the toothpaste whatever you do.
If you were working those hours something tells me we would have another union strike no food.
Try being a bit fair. Its is a much harder life than working 9 to 5.
Cheers
Posted by Kerryanne, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 1:44:33 AM
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Kanne, my welfare policy would be something like this.

Firstly, I would stop the cash. Instead I would provide special debit style cards that exclude the purchase of certain items.

Then I would provide direct funding for kids, like school needs and meals.

Tax

I would phase out the unfair GST and replace it with a transaction tax that can't be avoided by anyone. The gst is unfair as I get mine back whereas
the non ABN holder does not.

I would revamp the judicial system and have more appropriate sentencing. Gorden nuttle got 14 years for taking bribes, while killers get as little as 5 or 6 years simply because they were drunk or on drugs.

Tabbacco
I would not provide subsidized healthcare for smokers or excessive drinkers. Self inflicted harm should not cost the general public.

Seniors
I would provide all benefits to all retired persons regardless of their wealth.

Farmers support
I would divvy up the purse and support those who rely on effected farmers for their incomes. At present everyone else missed out.

Wages
I would link wage rises to productivity and where possible, profits. Simply increasing wages because times are tough is wrong in my view.

The last PR was granted yet most businesses went backwards.

There,s a start.
Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 6:54:07 AM
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@Yabby: AWB sold wheat and had little to do with sheep

I was referring to the Australian Wool Board. There was one, but maybe I have their name wrong. Anyway they were the mob that the sheep farmers sold their wool to, and who accumulated a veritable mountain of unsold wool.

@Yabby: You certainly do, rstuart. Julia, to gain your vote, will compensate you for your increased costs. Not so for farmers facing the real world out there.

I must not have explained myself well. I plugged in my figures to http://www.cleanenergyfuture.gov.au and I loose money as a result of the carbon tax.

@Yabby: All for what? So that city slickers can feel better about seemingly saving the planet, when you and I know that China, India and others will take no notice at all, just continue as they were.

No Yabby, China is most definitely are not "continuing as they were". It always struck me as odd when supposedly well informed people claim this. China implemented their one child policy to control population. They are building all sorts of water infrastructure, fast train networks, massive water pollution cleanup programs, cleaning up their coal fired plants and planning to replace them with nuclear in the long term. They are buying up mines, fertile land all around the world, including here. China knows what is coming, and are doing their damnedest to prepare for it.

@Kerryanne: Your working how many hours a day in your paid job?

Whatever I choose really, but typically somewhere between 60 to 80 hours a week. I come from a rural background, Kerryanne. I know what farming life is like. Sometimes you have to pull personal heroics, sometimes you are looking around to find things to be do, sometimes the weather is kind and you make a mint, sometimes it's the reverse. As Yabby said, people choose it because they like the lifestyle. It is different from the constant, but certain grind of city life.
Posted by rstuart, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 9:08:07 AM
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rstuart, that was AWC or the Australian Wool corporation. Indeed
their wool mountain was a fiasco and goes to show what happens when
people ignore the realities of the global marketplace.

If you personally are paying more then your Govt carbon tax refund,
then clearly your income is so high that the Govt thinks that you
don't need help.

China and India continue to build coal fired power plants and I
have yet to see where they purposefully introduce legislation which
reduces the competitiveness of their key export industries.

Australian agriculture in terms of its key exports of grain and meat
production, is still competitive in global markets, due to constant
rises in productivity etc. Yet once again we see Govt knocking in
proverbial nails in their coffin to make them less so. Just ask
major meat exporters what the carbon tax is going to cost them.
They can't pass on those costs to overseas consumers, they are left
with passing them back down the supply chain to farmers.

Ironically this will mean an even greater reason to increase live
exports.

One would think that Australia would benefit from having export
industries other then just mining
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 10:11:33 AM
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@Yabby: that was AWC or the Australian Wool corporation.

Ah, so that was it. Thank you.

@Yabby: If you personally are paying more then your Govt carbon tax refund, then clearly your income is so high that the Govt thinks that you don't need help.

Indeed. So I am not so much different to the farmers after all - which was my point. Believe it or not, the most ardent supporters of the carbon tax are the richer members of our society who live in the cities. They are the ones most likely to vote for the greens, as an example. They get to pay the tax, but get very little compensation.

About now I hoping you are getting a glimmer of why I have so little sympathy for "poor struggling farmer - we are the ones being hit hardest" line. In reality the people most wanted this tax are the ones getting hit hardest. The lower income strata actually get an income boost from it. I know whinging is a occupation pass time for some country folk, but seriously at times you really need to grow a spine.

@Yabby: yet to see where they purposefully introduce legislation which reduces the competitiveness of their key export industries.

Then you should look harder. As always Wikipedia is a good place to start. They are starting from a abysmally low base. But we have from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environment_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China :

"With $34.6 billion invested in clean technology in 2009, China is the world's leading investor in renewable energy technologies."

That's one small point in a what is a remarkably long list.
Posted by rstuart, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 11:47:26 AM
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rehctub,
And a very good start too .

I would also like to put junkies on top of that list. The Government gave heaps for mental health. Truth is its for people who have done it to themselves and others cant get help.
I would take $ from welfare to cover private health before they got it. I would like to go deeper into your farmers policy on another post - not much room here.

Whats your view on the death penalty for people who murder 3 year kids and little old men and ladies. I am quite interested to include that in my budget cut
Posted by Kerryanne, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 3:07:53 PM
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Ironically this will mean an even greater reason to increase live
exports.

One would think that Australia would benefit from having export
industries other then just mining.
Yabby,

You lot never learn. We stuffed wool and we stuffed hundreds of country town by closing plants. The reason they buy live is jobs for their country.

Time we considered ours and put tariffs back in place so the red meat market can compete globally.

You always do this- I saw you comments about WA only on mining.

What happens when it runs out Yabby? We need to value add and create jobs and get our country areas up and running again.

Even a fair go for the red meat guys but NO NO you live exports want NO funding for opening plants here.

Why should Australian pay so Elders and others can have business off shore. Thats Aussie public money and it should be spent here in Australia.

Another thing and lets be very clear- most real farmers have gone. All thats left is the industry. They get very annoyed too if you call them farmers.

They will tell you please DO NOT call us farmers. We are not farmers.

Couldn't agree more. The industry "breed especially for Muslim markets KNOWING full well how these animals are treated.

They are the scum of the earth Taking Aussie jobs closing down Aussie plants and sending millions of animals to unbelievable cruelty.

Every cent of the tax payers $ going into feed lots is theft from the Australian people.

There time is coming.

Mind you NOTHING will make it ok. Even when it stops ( & it will)

Nothing will make up for the cruelty inflicted to these animals for years.

I think when AU is invaded one day the Animal will return in full force!
Posted by Kerryanne, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 3:33:47 PM
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*Believe it or not, the most ardent supporters of the carbon tax are the richer members of our society who live in the cities.*

Absolutaly, because they can most afford it. They are usually not
involved in cut throat exports either, more like trading houses
with each other, or some local service industry. Go and ask an
operator like Fletcher or large beef exporters like Teys, what the
carbon tax will do for them. They, along with farmers, live in
the real world of global trade, unlike the majority of our city
slickers.

Around here last year, 75% of farmers lost money. These are not
piddly, small unefficient operators either, but some of the most
efficient wheat producers on the planet. They compete with the
taxpayers of the USA and EU to exist. Now you want to clobber them
some more, because you happen to be rich enough to afford it and
it does not threaten your lifestyle or business.

Yes, China is investing in clean technologies, before people choke
to death, they learnt that the hard way. But they are also adding
another coal powered electicity plant every few days.

We are free to scrap all aluminium smelting and build a couple of
nuclear plants, if that is what it takes to make the rich folk
feel better about themselves. We are free to encourage people to
use solar water heaters, LED tvs, the list goes on. But just
clobber a few export driven industries, many which are riding on
the edge anyhow, is hardly smart thinking, just for your feelgood
factor of the Greens.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 5:55:35 PM
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@Yabby: Around here last year, 75% of farmers lost money.

So again you plead poor on behalf of your local sheep farmers. Are the flocks down to a sustainable size yet? I do have a lot of sympathy for them on a personal level, but on a business level - well they dug the hole they now find themselves in. Listening to you is like listening to a local telix machine repair man saying how the carbon tax is going to wipe him out. It may well do, but blaming the carbon tax is a bit rich. So is your constant complaining if our food exports keep growing, which seems likely.

Anyway, assuming they manage remain in the same poor position for 12 months, they will be one of those getting a little extra in their pocket from the government. I guess it will be transferred from my pocket to theirs. That must make your heart glow, Yabby.

@Yabby: just for your feelgood factor of the Greens.

No, it isn't just feel good. It is actually doing something about several problems ahead of us.

I guess you are consistent in an odd way. You say the world is headed for hell with over population, resource depletion, and pollution. And you say there is nothing you or anybody can do about it. And you behave in a way that ensures it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. And having decided on that course of action, you say you don't care, because you can't control it anyway.

Not all of us are prepared to write ourselves off quite so easily.
Posted by rstuart, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 6:46:37 PM
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Kanne people with addictions turn to others for help, however, at best others can only manage a problem as it's the addict that is the only one who can fix a problem.

Trouble is if you have nothing, as many do, then you don't miss it so as long as they have a roof over their head and something to eat, often they see no need to change and they all to often now how to work the system

As for the death pen, well my view is that if a murderer is caught red handed then why not.

Circumstantial evidence does not cut it for me though. They must be caught in the act and it must be pre meditated.

Another thing that need attention Is child support. Boy that one causes some problems.
Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 6:57:27 PM
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*So again you plead poor on behalf of your local sheep farmers. Are the flocks down to a sustainable size yet?*

No rstuart, I am stating the reality for a highly efficient industry
which we have in WA. That industry produces wheat, canola, barley,
oats, lupins, beef, mutton, lamb and wool. It can be benchmarked
globally to show its efficiency, against agriculture from around
the world. It exports nearly everything produced, for the benefit
of all you Australians who are unable to be efficient enough to
compete on global markets. All you can seemingly do is bang more
nails in its coffin. So I object.

*they will be one of those getting a little extra in their pocket from the government.*

They will be taxed extra on their production inputs, unlike their
competitors in the USA, Canada, Ukraine, Europe, etc.

*No, it isn't just feel good. It is actually doing something about several problems ahead of us.*

Of course its feelgood rstuart, for its not going to change anything
in the global scheme of things. Its not like you are suggesting
financing contraception for the third world or something useful like
that.

Simply adding to production costs of highly competitive industries
to make them less competitive, is hardly smart thinking. So tax
all taxpayers if you want to be fair. Those who earn more pay more.
In this case, you are simply taxing those who don't have enough
votes to complain at the ballot box. Tyranny by the majortiy, most
of whom have been bought off with bribes.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 7:50:00 PM
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@ Yabby:

I'm a little intrigued that 75% of these highly efficient farmers lost money last year. What about over tha last 10 years?

I would have thought that if even highly efficient industry consistently loses money, then it's unsustainable. Sounds to me like you're pleading for indirect subsidisation.
Posted by morganzola, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 7:57:05 PM
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@Yabby: It exports nearly everything produced, for the benefit of all you Australians who are unable to be efficient enough to compete on global markets.

How sad Yabby, it seems those farmers also belong in the "unable to be efficient enough to compete on global markets" bucket.

@Yabby: All you can seemingly do is bang more nails in its coffin.

No Yabby, I didn't bang the nail in its coffin. Neither has the carbon tax for that matter, as it doesn't exist. And when it does exist it will be at most a minor irritant. Nor the government. Nor the greenies. It's pretty clear who has gutted our export industries. Its mining. By being a wildly successful.

@Yabby: Of course its feelgood rstuart, for its not going to change anything in the global scheme of things. Its not like you are suggesting financing contraception for the third world or something useful like that.

Same argument unfortunately applies to anything Australia does directly Yabby. We are too small to make a difference, even in exporting contraception. So by your logic I gather that means we should do nothing. The same argument applies to voting. As we all full well know, it is very unlikely our single vote will change the outcome. So I guess we all shouldn't vote, eh?

Well, I see Australia taking this small step as rather like casting a vote. And despite all your whinging on how the carbon is going to cripple you, it is very small step, especially compared to the damage the the mining industry has already done to the other exporting industries.
Posted by rstuart, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 8:25:29 PM
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*I'm a little intrigued that 75% of these highly efficient farmers lost money last year. What about over tha last 10 years?*

Yes Morgan, we had our lowest rainfall on record in the West.
Last time I saw a statistic, returns in agriculture from agriculture
of actually growing things, averaged around 1% over the years. It
is a tough industry, every year something. One year its early frosts,
then commodity prices below the cost of production, then floods,
or something. The industry does not want subsidies, but it doesen't
want extra unneeded costs either. People tend to hang in there as
for many of them, its taken 2-3 generations to build what they have.
They are extremely tough and resilient, but making it even harder
for them, is plain stupidity. We should be proud of these people,
they work far harder then you or I.

*And when it does exist it will be at most a minor irritant.*

No, it will be yet another unneeded cost. Lumbered on most efficient,
those who are hanging on exporting, which most of you are unable
to do.

*We are too small to make a difference, even in exporting contraception.*

Not really rstuart. We spend 4 billion on third world aid, none of
it on family planning for the third world. Even a billion would make
a huge difference for women who can't afford it.

*especially compared to the damage the the mining industry has already done to the other exporting industries*

Hang on, a high Dollar also lowers many input costs. Unlike your
new tax, which achieves absolutaly bugger all except serve the
Green Kumbayah political agenda. Why not tax high earning public servants
like Bob Brown more? Why efficient exporters already struggling
with droughts, disease, frosts, floods, topsy turvey global markets,
and all the rest?

Just because you can, that is why. They are out in the backblocks,
working their arses off to keep the wheels on the cart. Whilst you
lot sit around contemplating your navels, inventing rules to take
their money, add to their production costs for absolutaly no good-reason.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 8:56:55 PM
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@Yabby: Whilst you lot sit around contemplating your navels, inventing rules to take their money, add to their production costs for absolutaly no good-reason.

Ahh, that statement makes your feelings about us city folk clear at last. I'm glad to see it.

@Yabby: Not really rstuart. We spend 4 billion on third world aid, none of it on family planning for the third world. Even a billion would make a huge difference for women who can't afford it.

So everyone claims. But it isn't true of course. You make contraception available, but that doesn't give them the power to use it. That only thing that does that is education. Still, 0% of the aid budget going to contraception is laughable.

@Yabby: Hang on, a high Dollar also lowers many input costs

As it did for fertiliser costs, and petroleum costs, and equipment costs as most of it isn't manufactured here. It reduced those costs over 30% in the last 5 years. And you are telling me those farmers are still loosing money. I wonder how that could be so? It must be the bloody weather. If they aren't complaining about us city slickers, it's always the weather that's got it in for them.

For what it's worth, the reducing cost of imports doesn't help exporters overly. It should be obvious that if you import something have a fiddle with it than sell it again, whatever it costs in $AUD doesn't matter.
Posted by rstuart, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 9:14:32 PM
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rehctub

*it's the addict..

good points.

Re addict problem- imop Public shouldn’t be asked to pay because others kids cooked their brains on dope. All we see are mothers screaming there isn’t enough $ drug addict son.- Others demanding our $ to raise `their kids, free child care. Australia is a basket case for welfare.
Back to addicts a short story.
Once knew and old Greek Mafia boss . Long retired accept for his restaurant ( mostly for his friends ). After closing he`d drive to the mountains stand there just talk for hours about the old days. Told me of a little Island back in his homeland & how they finally cleared it up from addicts.
Turns out they did nothing –zip.
He spoke of brothers, sisters, mothers dads would come looking for their loved ones where the junkies or hung & hit up & dealt. Many carried off dead. No coppers no fuss nothing. He reckoned you could hear crying and hysterical screaming of grief. He told me once a lady came up to him hysterical screaming - why don’t you do something. He replied- I just did. Said sisters and brothers carried their family member off they never forgot & never touched drugs. The Island cleaned itself up & you couldn’t find a needle on the place. He changed my mind from stricter to legalizing drugs.
I think its time to be honest call them addicts and give them an island.

As for the death pen, Yep guilty beyond doubt.

* child support*.
people expect us to support their kids and my absolute pet hate after live exports.
I was saying earlier a license & proof you can support your own is long overdue.

I do not support $ going to all these single mothers who never work & have 4&5 kids.
Posted by Kerryanne, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 9:53:20 PM
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*Ahh, that statement makes your feelings about us city folk clear at last. I'm glad to see it.*

Ah rstuart, but I am in the position to judge both worlds, as I deal
with both. I've seen some of these people live in the back of
shearing sheds, not complaining, just getting on with the job. All
I see in the city is more paper shuffling, more claims to entitlements,
more living the good life. Australia not only rode
on the sheeps back, but also on the back of those farmers who
toiled away out there, with no thanks from anyone. To me they are
the unsung heros, not you city slickers building houses for one
another for a living. What really happens out in the bush, you
clearly are not aware of, as your posts show.

*That only thing that does that is education*

Gawd rstuart, I would have thought it was bleeding obvious that some
of that billion would include educating those who want it, how to
use it. Hiring educators in the third world is pretty cheap btw.

*It reduced those costs over 30% in the last 5 years*

I never made that claim, so quit creating your own strawman arguments.
For of course part of those costs are local. But the drop in price
on inputs is still significant, which helps deal with the subsidy
payments thrown at EU and US farmers who compete against us in the
marketplace.

*it's always the weather that's got it in for them.*

No rstuart, the weather is simply a reality that agriculture has
to deal with and plan for as best they can, something which most
city slickers do not even consider in their business planning.
Its easier for them to invent another Ponzi scheme like building
more houses for more migrants and suck that dry. Or tax the remaining
efficient exporters some more.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 10:04:45 PM
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Just a quick question, Is anyone substantially better off under the carbon tax?

We know the farmers, the steel and coal workers aren't, the small business owners, retailers and manufacturers aren't.

My only thought is the carbon traders and bankers. Any other suggestions.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 10:09:31 PM
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@Yabby: All I see in the city is more paper shuffling, more claims to entitlements, more living the good life

You forgot two things, Yabby. Firstly there is plenty of space in the city for those country folk who want to share in this "good life". If it is a tough in the country as you say, and as good in the cities as you say, I'm surprised the outback isn't empty. If what you say is true I guess it will be, because they will all be broke.

And secondly, and much more importantly, there are more votes.

And with that I must bid you good night.
Posted by rstuart, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 10:16:03 PM
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Sm, that's the whole point, what's the point. Nobody is better off.

At best, the consumer will be compensated formtheir out of pockets, so, why raise the tax in the first place, if they only intend to give it back.

They claim it's for the better of the environment, sure, if our air were to be used exclusively for Australians, but is not.

As I have said, why no just spend the billions they are committing on clean energy research. But perhaps we had best wait for a change in government as that would be to risky given this mobs record on waste.

I have stayed out of the farm debate,however, what those that are not in business realize is that it is almost impossible to run a business because a large portion of staff are mine workers in the waiting.

We have a country in recession and a booming mining sector with the end result being what is described as a strong ecomomy. Try telling that to a retailer, manufacturer, tourist operator or farmer.

The average Joe is in denial to the fact that their provided world is on the brink of colapse
Posted by rehctub, Wednesday, 20 July 2011 5:28:10 AM
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@Shadow Minister: My only thought is the carbon traders and bankers. Any other suggestions.

Is it a bit late in the night Shadow? There are no carbon traders - this is a carbon tax if you recall. And there won't be any if Abbott rolls it all back, as he promises he will.

What any of this has to do with the banks is a bit of a mystery.

@Shadow Minister: Just a quick question, Is anyone substantially better off under the carbon tax?

Can we drop the word substantially? I don't know anybody who is going to be substantially anything because of the carbon tax in the next few years.

So to answer your question, over 50% of households will be better off. Which will be a problem for the Liberals, should Labor ever be able sell their message. Granted, it's looking like they could not sell a pork chop in a Sub-Saharan refugee camp right now.
Posted by rstuart, Wednesday, 20 July 2011 8:50:04 AM
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*You forgot two things, Yabby*

Rsruart, I never forgot anything. OLO is full of people complaining
that city Australians don't actually make anything at all. They
are correct in one way. Much of what city people do is to administer
each other and continue their Ponzi scheme of building ever more
expensive houses for each other.

Meantime I think its wonderful that there are still a bunch of
salt of the earth Australians out there in the bush, doing such
useful things as producing food. Not just to feed Australians, but
to feed a whole lot more and generate export dollars for this country.

Because of where I live, I see the risks which they take, the innovation they apply,
the work that they do and the benefits to
our economy and country. Sadly Australia does not respect and
encourage its exporters, as is the case in most other parts of the
world, where their value is acknowledged.

Your own lack of understanding of their achievements is clear, as
evidenced by your posts. Your defeatist solution is also typical
of city Australia. Perhaps you could learn a bit and concede that
they deserve a fair go, not be dragged into more city centric ponzi
schemes which make things ever more difficult for them.

This country was built on the back of those achievers, it still
thrives because of them. They make your cushy lifestyle possible,
even if you are not aware of it.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 20 July 2011 11:51:35 AM
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Rstuart,

According to Juliar's modelling the actual emissions will be about 13% higher in 2020 than 2000. The modelling achieves the 5% below 2000 target, not by reducing emissions, but by spending $3.5bn p.a. buying carbon credits from agents around the world. The EU has already exposed many of these traders as shonky.

So yes there will be lots of carbon traders.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 20 July 2011 11:56:15 AM
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Dear SM
We won't know what effect the CT will have on us till it comes in to play.....remember the GST?, it was so complicated that no-one understood the Parliaments' delivery of it by John Hewson, I don't think he understood it either. I think that a CT either right or wrong will just have to be sucked up by the Plebs, no matter who is for/against it, but as stated on another discussion thread, someone had to do something....Tony Abbott, really has thrown a spanner in the works with his unfettered scare campaign...I am amazed at how many people take his word as gospel....do you have any anwers?....if you do, well and good, because I sure at hell dont. Cheers.
NSB
Posted by Noisy Scrub Bird, Wednesday, 20 July 2011 12:05:29 PM
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@Shadow Minister: According to Juliar's modelling the actual emissions will be about 13% higher in 2020 than 2000.

I presume this is a repeat of the claim you started this thread with: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4578

I didn't enter into it because these claims from the IPA and it's offspring are anything but balanced. The two recent illustrate the point.

Max Rheese's "Health and economics will unravel wind power", http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12277 which when you read it said precious little about economics but a lot the supposed health issues. The problem with these health issues is the people who live right next to the turbines and receive an income from them don't have them. It's only people who live further away from them but don't receive income who claim they cause health issues.

Then we have Alex Stuart's "Australia's natural absorption of CO2 exceeds its man-made emissions". As I said in the thread the only thing Alex showed is torturing the data sufficiently can get it to confess to anything. I did the calculation a different way to produce the reverse of his conclusion. Both efforts are pointless examples of "lies, damned lies, and statistics".

Is Sinclair Davidson's piece an example of the same thing? Going on past history probably, but it takes literally hours to check. There seems to be little point. It was speculation about on treasury modelling on what the economy will doing 10 years time. This is angels dancing on the head of a pin territory.

There is however one thing you can safely say about the carbon tax: whatever the result will be in 10 years time, it would be worse without it. Notably Sinclair Davidson's didn't compare the two scenarios - with and without, which is probably a hint on where the achilles heel of his spin lies.

As for your point about carbon traders: your right, I'm wrong. They will exist if the governments plan is implemented fully.
Posted by rstuart, Wednesday, 20 July 2011 12:57:19 PM
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@Yabby: Rsruart, I never forgot anything.

Yes, you did Yabby. Even in your reply.

The first point I made is you country people will dance to whatever rules we city slickers set, because we have the votes. It's that simple.

The second point I made is you do have a choice. If being the down trodden exploited few is as bad as you say, you can join us in the city. Hell if 90% of you move there, leaving the 10% that aren't currently spending their time bitching and moaning to do the work, those 10% would be better far off than us city slickers. In other words we city slickers may get set the rules, but if you can't make a buck in the country no one is forcing you to stay there.

Thought of that Yabby? Of course you have. You've weighed it up and made your choice. And apparently you decided evidently life is pretty good in the country. Better than the city in fact.

OK, fine, its your choice. But tell me, what are you bitching and moaning about again?
Posted by rstuart, Wednesday, 20 July 2011 1:17:38 PM
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Ah rstuart, country people don't give up that easily, they are far
too resilient. So there are in fact solutions, as was shown in the
last WA elections, when the local labor Govt battled to see past
the edges of Perth.

Country people stuck together, voted for the royalties for regions
proposal put up by the nationals and the labour Govt was dumped.
The city based liberals had no choice but to concede to the WA based
nationals, who then held the balance of power.

We arn't done yet, rstuart, even if you city slickers intend to
suck the lifeblood out of the efficient part of our country, with
your many ponzi schemes. The carbon tax is just another of those.

Patience is a virtue.

Meantime I will continue to point out just how large a parasites
that some of you are, when you try to bleed efficient export
industries into the ground.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 20 July 2011 2:00:10 PM
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Yabby it isn’t too often I agree with your goose stepping ideals, but regarding the "farm" what we should do, but will not do because we are being dictated by the UN and those who "own" it, is legislate to protect our arable land and support our farmers to keep in their vocation. In post war Japan even after being nuked twice they had enough sense left to protect their farmland from sale or exploitation. That is why Japan built up and not out, but we aint got the sense of a nuked Japanese pleb.

Why is Bob Brown and his army of imbeciles not protesting about the gas bores being sunk all over the small percentage of farmland this continent has? What is green for Brown these days given the Gunn got their way on his front door step and he did not even bother to chain himself to anything like in the good old Franklin days. A Greenie, my fat brown eye he is, and I use the term brown eye because it is special to Bobby.
Posted by sonofgloin, Wednesday, 20 July 2011 3:03:07 PM
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Rstuart,

The modelling was released with the carbon tax details by the Gillard government, that you can't trust them is an indication of the problem she faces.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 20 July 2011 7:34:20 PM
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@Shadow Minister: The modelling was released with the carbon tax details by the Gillard government, that you can't trust them is an indication of the problem she faces.

I have a low opinion of macro economists. Rudd went with the stimulus because that was the majority advice he got, but it wasn't hard to find a a swag economist's claiming it was wrong. When we were contemplating whether a free trade agreement with the US I googled the opinion of a few economists. After reading opinions a few I realised I was wasting my time. You could tell what conclusion they were going to reach by looking up which groups got them to speak on their behalf. The facts they were commenting on didn't seem to effect the outcome. The current mess in the US was brought about in part by a bunch of economists "if we remove all market regulations, everyone will behave in the countries best interests because that is what markets do". Alan Greenspan actually expressed surprise when it didn't happen. And closer to home here on OLO, we had two fairly high profile economists come to precisely opposite conclusions on whether banking the mining revenues in a future fund was a good idea.

The old joke that if you put all economists in the world end to end, they would not reach a conclusion is not too far from the truth. I gather you must partially agree, given your comment "The couple of points that the economic illiterate deliberately omits to mention". The economic illiterate was Oliver Hartwich, who studied Business Administration and Economics according to his bio. I didn't comment, because I had nothing to add to your observations.

That said, I am sure treasury's short term predictions are fine. Microeconomic works well enough given static conditions. But 10 years out - who do they think they are kidding?

So yes, the carbon tax is a bit of a punt. I am not sure that is a huge problem. So was the GST. What Hawk and Keating did was an even bigger one.
Posted by rstuart, Wednesday, 20 July 2011 8:31:15 PM
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Watching the ABC digital News Channel this morning, I witnessed an outdoor press conference with JULIA Gillard.,in QLD, in my view, she put to rest the relentless lying about the outcome of the cost of Carbon Tax by the Opposition Leader.
It was a good expose of those lies, the coal industry and steel industry et.al are quite happy with the tax....of course the people behind the companies mining of Australia are not happy, they won't be able to satisfy the shareholders....but in W.A. most of the people are behind the carbon tax, including, I might say, some of the local mining companies., In my opinion, the people who are against it are more interested in money made from Stocks and Shares than they are climate change
Posted by Noisy Scrub Bird, Thursday, 21 July 2011 2:01:28 PM
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Reading the news this morning, I read an outdoor interview with Morris Iemma. in my view, he put to rest the relentless lying about the outcome of the cost of Carbon Tax by the Juliar Gillard.

"Mr Iemma was the third senior Labor figure, after Transport Workers Union boss Tony Sheldon and Dean Mighell from the Electrical Trades Union, to voice opposition to the carbon tax."

"One thing is sure," Iemma said, " [Australia's] carbon tax won't change the world but it could change the government. The carbon tax at best reduces the rate of increase in greenhouse gas emissions slightly."

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/abbott-uses-iemma-words-to-hit-carbon-tax-20110721-1hpv9.html
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 21 July 2011 3:26:46 PM
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@Shadow Minister: in my view, he put to rest the relentless lying about the outcome of the cost of Carbon Tax by the Juliar Gillard.

Well I'll be damned. Shadow has evidently found a Labor stalwart he trusts.

I'm glad I was sitting down.
Posted by rstuart, Thursday, 21 July 2011 3:55:13 PM
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Ah, just wait until those dairy farmers get clobbered with those
extra charges for running their dairies, then get clobbered again when milk
processors have to pay to create milk powder, which is where most of our milk goes.
It all comes off their bottom line.
Then all the small businesses facing extra power charges as they
struggle to survive.

It doesen't take a large percentage to swing an election. I
actually prefer Julia to Tony as people, but the Govt has shot
itself in the foot bigtime on this one. People vote with their
wallets and there is no way that the Govt can argue that Australians
should pay more for electricity, but meantime we'll ship the coal
that we now don't burn to China, so that they can make cheap
electricity.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 21 July 2011 8:01:12 PM
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NSB> ...but in W.A. most of the people are behind the carbon tax,<<

Really, is that a fact, someone should tell the Labor opposition in WA this revelation.
AAP
"West Australian Opposition Leader Eric Ripper has suggested the federal government's proposed carbon tax is responsible for his poor showing in the latest poll".
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 21 July 2011 8:36:07 PM
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http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/nbn-retail-price-revealed-up-to-18995month-20110721-1hqbn.html

It has just been revealed that we will be paying double for NBN connections as we are presently paying for ASDL.

Labor's financial incompetence rides again. The NBN is the Pink Batts and school halls on steroids.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 21 July 2011 10:39:52 PM
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Our Digger Nation's Defence.

Support Friday the 29th of July as an 'Australian Carbon Tax National Sickie'. Please spread the word far and wide, and enjoy your day of National inaction.

Resulting from the state's failure to preserve, against superordinate authoritarian coercion, the overall best interests of our Nation, exercise of sovereignty transferred to the state by majority consent of the Australian people has become subject to the question of legitimacy. In order to reaffirm the mutual obligations inherent within our society's social contract, our Nation's first step shall be to 'dig a toe in'
Posted by DhrTressie, Friday, 22 July 2011 3:49:23 AM
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NSB, I would suggest the majority of us are not so concerned with the carbon tax as such, rather, we are concerned that we Aussies are trying to tackle a global problem almost single handed.

Although there are those out there who believe there is no such thing as climate change, I can assure you I am not one of them.

We as a nation already suffer from a two speed economy and our high dollar is placing pressure on the other life blood of our nation, exports.

You see, because our living standards are so high and our population is so low, we rely on exports and if our exporters are faced with more costs (carbon tax) this may well be the straw that breaks the camels back.

Considering the majority of the nation is in recession, is this a risk we can afford to take?
Posted by rehctub, Friday, 22 July 2011 5:57:48 AM
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@Shadow Minister: It has just been revealed that we will be paying double for NBN connections as we are presently paying for ASDL.

Seriously Shadow, what school taught you to add up?

It is not at all difficult to compare Internode's ADSL plans to their NBN plans. Here are Internode's ADSL plans: http://www.internode.on.net/residential/adsl_broadband/easy_naked/ So lets compare them to the NBN plans in the newspaper article:

ADSL: $ 30/mo, NBN: $ 30/mo - 30Gb
ADSL: $ 80/mo, NBN: $ 80/mo - 200Gb
ADSL: $100/mo, NBN: $100/mo - 300Gb
ADSL: $150/mo, NBN: $150/mo - 1Tb

I can understand you being deep blue to the core, but this propensity to enthusiastically swallow any drivel that is served up by your side of politics is mind blowing.
Posted by rstuart, Friday, 22 July 2011 9:51:47 AM
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Rstuart,

I corrected my error immediately, which you selectively failed to mention.

You subsequently also made a simple math blunder. The NBN business plan is shaky, and if its extensive legal protection from competition is removed it will fold like a pack of cards.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 23 July 2011 10:18:07 AM
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rstuart, I have recently switched to internode after moving premises. I have the "easy naked S" plan, which gives me 150GB a month for $59.95, a VOIP service at $20 a month including $20 in calls and static IP, for $10 a month.

The plan was downgraded to the current 30GB shortly after I signed up, not long before the NBN plans were introduced, probably to provide some parity for comparison purposes but Internode have honoured the deal that was struck.
Posted by Antiseptic, Saturday, 23 July 2011 11:20:50 AM
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@Shadow Minister: I corrected my error immediately, which you selectively failed to mention.

You did Shadow, but you did it elsewhere. And guess what: I hadn't seen your connection when I posted above. I did post on both threads not long after I saw your posts, and you can see the order things happened in from the time stamps.

Also it was a lousy correction. You didn't correct: "Oh look, Internode is charging double for the NBN" to "Oh look: Internode's price for the NBN and ADSL is in fact exactly the same". That level of honesty is evidently beyond you. No, the correction was to point out that: "It's not twice, but Internode NBN's is more expensive than what I'm paying now".

@Antiseptic: probably to provide some parity for comparison purposes

There has been lots of comment about Internode's recent plan changes. http://delimiter.com.au/2011/07/16/reality-check-internode-is-not-price-gouging/ Internode has given their own explanation, which you have no doubt read. http://delimiter.com.au/2011/07/13/telstra-price-squeeze-hackett-slams-accc-inaction Whatever was the cause, it almost certainly had nothing to do with the NBN, and nothing I had read has said otherwise.

It is not hard to see why this is so. Internode's bread and butter comes from ADSL sales, and the market is price sensitive. The NBN is only currently available to a few suburbs in Tasi, the number of NBN customers Internode has must be tiny and it is going to remain that way for years yet. No company is going to risk making large price increases to the bread and butter product to make a political point about some niche product.
Posted by rstuart, Saturday, 23 July 2011 12:03:35 PM
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Rstuart,

When you can tell me how to undo a previous post, then you can criticise me for not doing so.

As for "Whatever was the cause, it almost certainly had nothing to do with the NBN, and nothing I had read has said otherwise." you obviously have not been looking.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/technology/cost-of-using-national-broadband-network-will-be-higher-than-promised/story-fn7celvh-1226099528083

"THE cost of using the National Broadband Network will be higher than promised, a major internet provider claims.

A basic $60 plan for speeds only a fraction of the broadband's capacity will see customers of Internode get just over half the internet capacity per month the Federal Government had modelled for $53-$58.

Internode managing director Simon Hackett said the Government's pricing model was flawed."
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 23 July 2011 7:02:49 PM
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