*You forgot two things, Yabby*

Rsruart, I never forgot anything. OLO is full of people complaining
that city Australians don't actually make anything at all. They
are correct in one way. Much of what city people do is to administer
each other and continue their Ponzi scheme of building ever more
expensive houses for each other.

Meantime I think its wonderful that there are still a bunch of
salt of the earth Australians out there in the bush, doing such
useful things as producing food. Not just to feed Australians, but
to feed a whole lot more and generate export dollars for this country.

Because of where I live, I see the risks which they take, the innovation they apply,
the work that they do and the benefits to
our economy and country. Sadly Australia does not respect and
encourage its exporters, as is the case in most other parts of the
world, where their value is acknowledged.

Your own lack of understanding of their achievements is clear, as
evidenced by your posts. Your defeatist solution is also typical
of city Australia. Perhaps you could learn a bit and concede that
they deserve a fair go, not be dragged into more city centric ponzi
schemes which make things ever more difficult for them.

This country was built on the back of those achievers, it still
thrives because of them. They make your cushy lifestyle possible,
even if you are not aware of it.

Rstuart,

According to Juliar's modelling the actual emissions will be about 13% higher in 2020 than 2000. The modelling achieves the 5% below 2000 target, not by reducing emissions, but by spending $3.5bn p.a. buying carbon credits from agents around the world. The EU has already exposed many of these traders as shonky.

So yes there will be lots of carbon traders.

Dear SM
We won't know what effect the CT will have on us till it comes in to play.....remember the GST?, it was so complicated that no-one understood the Parliaments' delivery of it by John Hewson, I don't think he understood it either. I think that a CT either right or wrong will just have to be sucked up by the Plebs, no matter who is for/against it, but as stated on another discussion thread, someone had to do something....Tony Abbott, really has thrown a spanner in the works with his unfettered scare campaign...I am amazed at how many people take his word as gospel....do you have any anwers?....if you do, well and good, because I sure at hell dont. Cheers.
NSB

@Shadow Minister: According to Juliar's modelling the actual emissions will be about 13% higher in 2020 than 2000.

I presume this is a repeat of the claim you started this thread with: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4578

I didn't enter into it because these claims from the IPA and it's offspring are anything but balanced. The two recent illustrate the point.

Max Rheese's "Health and economics will unravel wind power", http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12277 which when you read it said precious little about economics but a lot the supposed health issues. The problem with these health issues is the people who live right next to the turbines and receive an income from them don't have them. It's only people who live further away from them but don't receive income who claim they cause health issues.

Then we have Alex Stuart's "Australia's natural absorption of CO2 exceeds its man-made emissions". As I said in the thread the only thing Alex showed is torturing the data sufficiently can get it to confess to anything. I did the calculation a different way to produce the reverse of his conclusion. Both efforts are pointless examples of "lies, damned lies, and statistics".

Is Sinclair Davidson's piece an example of the same thing? Going on past history probably, but it takes literally hours to check. There seems to be little point. It was speculation about on treasury modelling on what the economy will doing 10 years time. This is angels dancing on the head of a pin territory.

There is however one thing you can safely say about the carbon tax: whatever the result will be in 10 years time, it would be worse without it. Notably Sinclair Davidson's didn't compare the two scenarios - with and without, which is probably a hint on where the achilles heel of his spin lies.

As for your point about carbon traders: your right, I'm wrong. They will exist if the governments plan is implemented fully.

@Yabby: Rsruart, I never forgot anything.

Yes, you did Yabby. Even in your reply.

The first point I made is you country people will dance to whatever rules we city slickers set, because we have the votes. It's that simple.

The second point I made is you do have a choice. If being the down trodden exploited few is as bad as you say, you can join us in the city. Hell if 90% of you move there, leaving the 10% that aren't currently spending their time bitching and moaning to do the work, those 10% would be better far off than us city slickers. In other words we city slickers may get set the rules, but if you can't make a buck in the country no one is forcing you to stay there.

Thought of that Yabby? Of course you have. You've weighed it up and made your choice. And apparently you decided evidently life is pretty good in the country. Better than the city in fact.

OK, fine, its your choice. But tell me, what are you bitching and moaning about again?

Ah rstuart, country people don't give up that easily, they are far
too resilient. So there are in fact solutions, as was shown in the
last WA elections, when the local labor Govt battled to see past
the edges of Perth.

Country people stuck together, voted for the royalties for regions
proposal put up by the nationals and the labour Govt was dumped.
The city based liberals had no choice but to concede to the WA based
nationals, who then held the balance of power.

We arn't done yet, rstuart, even if you city slickers intend to
suck the lifeblood out of the efficient part of our country, with
your many ponzi schemes. The carbon tax is just another of those.

Patience is a virtue.

Meantime I will continue to point out just how large a parasites
that some of you are, when you try to bleed efficient export
industries into the ground.