From News.com.au - PRIMARY school children are being terrified by lessons claiming climate change will bring "death, injury and destruction" to the world unless they take action.

On the eve of Prime Minister Julia Gillard's carbon tax package announcement, psychologists and scientists said the lessons were alarmist, created unneeded anxiety among school children and endangered their mental health.

Climate change as a "Doomsday scenario" is being taught in classrooms across Australia.

Resource material produced by the Gillard government for primary school teachers and students states climate change will cause "devastating disasters".

Australian National University's Centre for the Public Awareness of Science director Dr Sue Stocklmayer said climate change had been portrayed as "Doomsday scenarios with no way out".

Dr Stocklmayer said she was not a climate-change sceptic but worried that "too much time was spent presenting scary scenarios, especially to young people".

"(Children) feel incredibly despondent and helpless in the face of all this negative information," she said. "To put all of this before our children ... is one of the most appalling things we can do to (them).

Child psychologist Kimberley O'Brien also said the language of climate change should be "toned down".

"(Educators) should stick to the facts," she said.

"They should be aware that kids do have nightmares."

Psychologist Michael Carr-Gregg called on educators to be "more circumspect and present both sides (of the climate-change debate)".

"When you repeat things over and over to young people who don't have the cognitive maturity and emotional maturity to process this stuff, you end up creating unnecessary anxiety," he said.

Federal Schools Minister Peter Garrett said the government would not stop the teaching of climate science, despite moves in Britain for the subject to be withdrawn.

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national/australian-kids-are-living-in-climate-of-fear/story-e6frfkvr-1226091097398#ixzz1RlscUWxO

In order to save readers wasting time clicking the link, the above is a direct cut and paste from the tabloid 'Daily Telegraph', with absolutely no original input from sbr108, except for changing the title. The original title is "Australian children are being terrified by climate change lessons", which has been altered to "Eco-Nazi Propaganda".

Now why would anyone do that?

Ever heard about the original sin?

Today I learned that our parents have, through their greediness destroyed this eco-system. Because of this the sea will rise and my doggy can't swim.
Both my grandparents and my parents (and also my uncles and aunties) wanted, selfishly, to have more children than this planet can carry... and so I was born, in sin!

I am therefore terribly guilty for coming here and I am very bad for adding the biomass (whatever that means I'm not sure) of my body to this world, also for not jumping under a car and dying (but if I do this then mum will cry and i don't like her crying), but no worries - Teacher said that if I pray to Julia she may grant me absolution (I think it's a kind of a shampoo), then I'll go to heaven where there's no CO2.

Sounds more plausible than being sentenced to age and die for eating an apple.
What's the worry? The 'Catholo-Nazis' have been scaring the kids even worse for centuries, and they say it doesn't hurt children.

we tried to tell you not to let politricks enter classrooms
[have you noted how much time she spends at schools]

the big red which from oz
[the guile ard/wizzard.of oz]

anyhow i feel i tried to tell you
[recall the lie of evolution...taught to kids]
is a theory masking as fact

its the same same
nothing new

just dont forget
they did it to us too
in time we accept lies as truth
lies that stop us from taking a propper gander..at the proof

when you got no proof..
only a model or a theory

Can we establish a new term similar to that of Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) that whenever a person attaches the word nazi to another, such as femi-nazi and now eco-nazi, the 'debate' is null and void and the author of such terms is declared a loser?

Spoilsport, Ammonite.

>>...whenever a person attaches the word nazi to another, such as femi-nazi and now eco-nazi, the 'debate' is null and void and the author of such terms is declared a loser?<<

I was just starting a fine collection of -nazi suffixes, now you've gone and outlawed them. Awww.

On global warming: every day, I carry out a very crude little test. I check the eight capital cities' maximum maximums and minimum minimums, by decade. Records seem to have started in the 1850s, so there are now sixteen decades of data. I count up the max maxs for the last decade and subtract the number of min mins.

At random, one would expect as many max maxs and min mins in the last decade as in any of the past ones. If there is global warming occurring (my simple mind tells me), then there should be many more max maxs in the past decade than min mins.

So far, there is a slight edge, in favour of max maxs, by about one every day or two. Some days, there are more min mins. So I'm not sure what to believe wholeheartedly, which is very discomforting since I do not like to believe half-heartedly.

Sea-levels have risen by two inches in sixty years, temperatures by 0.8 degrees Celsius. So in my lifetime, sea-levels will rise three inches or so, and temperatures by 1-1.5 degrees, in total. I don't think that would flood Fiji.

It's around ten degrees in Adelaide at the moment, so I'm looking forward to winters that get a bit warmer, to be frank. But of course, I'm not Frank, I'm

Joe

Pericles

Sorry to spoil your fun. But finding the nazi label extremely offensive.

Loudmouth

If we are experiencing climate change expect it be exponentially, changes we make now to our behaviour will (according to climatologists) only have an effect 30 years from now. Such is the difference between climate and weather.

http://friedmanpedia.pbworks.com/w/page/22108134/Linear-and-Exponential-Thinking

PS

Loudmouth

"I'm not Frank..."

"I'm Ernest?"

Hope so. Too many here are puerile.

Puerile? You are such a Nazi-nazi.

poor schoolkids. Remember the good old days when schools were for education, not indoctrination?

"poor schoolkids. Remember the good old days when schools were for education, not indoctrination?"

Sorry, I don't. I can believe that it once was that way, but I doubt that my parents or even my grandparents would remember such a time.

Mind you, I was not born in Australia, so perhaps someone who was born here can tell whether by chance it was any different in Australia?

Yeah, when they raised the flag and sang the national anthem and had religious instruction every week...

Dear Austin,

That depends on the school doesn't it.

I attended an all-girls-religious one.

Ammonite,

Well, it better get a move on then. My @rse is freezing.

I remember from primary school "I honour my God. I serve my Queen. I salute my Flag".

But that wasn't indoctrination, of course.

Joe

Going to be a cold year, the big 'little girl' came and went.

Hot water-bottles are good for cold tooshies, so I am told :)

Ammonite,
The term Nazi merely meant National Sozialist in 1930's Deutschland. Isn't the ALP a sozialist
orientated party ?

Individual

Godwin's Law: You lose.

Ammonite,
Well, yeah, but people don't seem to get the point...

What's the point?

What's the point?
Ammonite,
see, we didn't have to wait long !

Where's the soap?

Yes, doesn't it?

Barcelona anyone?

42.

I see that individual's lifting the intellectual stakes again.

morganzola ,
Might pay you to reply to Owen59 in the who should pay for education thread if you can muster an intelligent reply that is..

@ individual:

I'm not that charitable. If you want to say something, you'll just have to say it yourself. Might I suggest you don't try and be too clever?

I fervently want to believe in global warming, that capitalism has heartlessly done terrible damage not just to innocent people but to the innocent environment too, but last week in Adelaide was its coldest week in July ever. Sorry :(

Joe, Adelaide ain't the Globe :)

Capitalism? A human 'construct' we can make better - we don't :(

Bonmot,

Christ, I hope so, otherwise ....... is that all there is ?

Bonmot,

In my daily scrutiny of the paper for highest maximums and lowest minimums over the past decade, here are the scores for July 16 and 18:

July 16:
Max maxs: nil
Min mins: nil

July 18:
Max maxs: nil
Min mins: nil

At random, one would expect an average of one max or one min over the past decade - sixteen readings per day, with records covering sixteen decades. An average of one per day. If the past decade had been the hottest ever, then the hottest maximums would tend to have occurred over the past decade, maybe not for every day but pretty often ? Or is this being impossibly naive ?

Suggest you scrutinise this instead Joe:

http://www.bom.gov.au/cgi-bin/climate/change/timeseries.cgi?graph=tmax&area=aus&season=0112&ave_yr=10

Change the parameters to get a fuller picture.

On the site you will find contact numbers - bounce your thesis off them.

Loudmouth

Please check Bonmot's link. A point to consider is that climate change means extremes in temperatures at times - the cold winter we are experiencing in Australia has followed very mild winters for the past ten years or so. It is the overall trend, taken over decades which indicate a warming climate - not current and localised weather.

Whether you believe in an anthropogenic influence or not, we cannot continue to pollute or use all our non-renewable resources. This little elephant will remain in the room, irrespective of claims of left or right wing philosophy, capitalism, communism or even fascism. The planet will get on with being planet earth - we can either take action to adapt now or deal with the consequences in the long term.

Thanks Bonmot and Ammonite,

Of course, one swallow doesn't make a summer, and a few readings don't indicate anything conclusively. But it's just a handy and quick way to keep up with hottest ever days and coldest ever days, that anyone can do for themselves.

And - hey presto ! yes, it's just possible that global warming brings about extremes, including extreme cold. Not being religious, I don't have your faith that everything can be explained by one factor.

And although I believe - in a lukewarm, arm's-distance sort of way - in AGW, I am worried that the former emphasis on pollution (of waterways, soils, air, etc., etc.) has been neglected somewhat by a re-orientation towards focussing on AGW as the Enemy.

And it beats me why Gillard and her new tax aren't concentrating on:

1. the planting of vast areas of trees across the north. I can't see very much in the carbon tax proposals that actually promises to reduce carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, as tree plantations would do. Of course, not just any trees, but those which are both Indigenous to the areas they are planted in, and are likely to be used for building or furniture, NOT for burning, EVER: higher-value timber than just firewood timber. There's lifelong employment as a bonus.

and

2. putting more carbon back in the soil, as char, etc. As I understand this process, it considerably improves crop yields and at the same time, reduces use of water. Maybe I've got that wrong ?

Okay, an increase of two inches in sea-level, and one and a bit degrees in temperature, over fifty years, are factors that we should be concerned about, once non-AGW factors have been taken into account. Agreed. But frankly, I don't lose any sleep over it. I'm more concerned about the disappearance of frogs from the environment, due to feral animals, inappropriate building regulations and water pollution, to be honest.

Joe

Loudmouth

You say:

>> I'm more concerned about the disappearance of frogs from the environment, due to feral animals, inappropriate building regulations and water pollution, to be honest. <<

Which is why I preempted with the point below in my previous post:

"Whether you believe in an anthropogenic influence or not, we cannot continue to pollute or use all our non-renewable resources."

Also I am not religious, unless you mean totally caught up in seeing only one side to managing our eco-system, planet earth? I believe transition to a cleaner and sustainable way of life for the human race will take many and varied actions to repair the damage we have caused, there being no single magic bullet.

For example, my post:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12333&page=0#213234

I am saddened that the entire focus is upon a single component: carbon. Our problems go much further than just that - as you say feral animals to which we could add mono-cultures of plants, farming cattle and sheep in regions to which kangaroos are perfectly adapted, private control over genetically engineered plants, animals... the list goes on.

Spot on, Ammonite !

Hello Joe,

Of course it's possible "that global warming brings about extremes, including extreme cold" - but it's not about "faith" as you seem to infer, it's about science. There is a difference.

The "cold" you are now experiencing is not due global warming - it's primarily due to La Nina losing its intensity.

Think about it Joe, 1998 (one of the hottest years on record due to El Nino) was hardly hotter than 2010/2011. There is an underlying trend that is masking natural variability.

Planting of trees and soil modification is important - and there are numerous studies that have been written on the subject. Have you read any of them? Do you know how much land is required to be planted in Australia under the Coalition's so called 'direct action'?

Joe, I certainly don't lose any sleep over what I do. If I was to lose any sleep at all it would be the way the ordinary 'joe/janes' of Australia have been 'dumbed-down' by the current negative ideological approach by the Oppsosition.

Anyway, rising CO2 levels are not the only factor Joe - but it's a significant component, despite the howls to the contrary.

Stay warm :)

Thanks Bonmot, is that a yes or a no ?

So ....... la Nina and 'underlying trends' mask actual temperature variations, day to day and year to year. They do not represent some mighty leap of faith in something, like science ?

The problem with something which explains everything - if only one would believe - is that it ends up explaining not very much. When something like AGW (which I believe in, in a half-hearted way) can be used to explain extremes of hot AND cold (and probably sea-level rise AND fall as well for all I know, not being much of a scientist), is that it begins to sound like the boogey-man of my infancy, or Satan to devout Christians - everywhere, and responsible for everything bad. As I told my designated Jehovah's Witness man this morning, if only I could BELIEVE. Actually, I was pulling his leg, I'll never believe, poor bugger.

As for tree-planting and soil improvement techniques, I'm happy with their possibilities. It's a big country, and such broad-acre remedies have plenty of room for their application.

Oh well, time for my afternoon nap :)

Jo

"I fervently want to believe in global warming"-Loudmouth

Why would anyone fervently 'want' to believe such a thing?

I only reluctantly believe it because that's what the data is telling us. I don't 'want' to believe it. When the actual data tells us otherwise (other than the opinions of amateur weatherwatchers, hack journalists and bloggers with 'mathematical qualifications' of course), I will change my mind.

But I would never 'fervently want' to believe such a thing, that would indicate some sort of schadenfreude against the entire human race.

Bugsy

>> But I would never 'fervently want' to believe such a thing, that would indicate some sort of schadenfreude against the entire human race. <<

Me either. But I do believe in consequences and taking responsibility for our actions. If we clear fell a forest, I know we destroy more than just trees, we destroy an entire eco-system of flora, fauna, bacteria and a balance that was, no longer exists.

Species of creatures we may not even have discovered, let alone have understood are becoming extinct as I write these words - by the actions of humans. We cannot control the devastation wrought by earthquakes, tsumanis or cyclones but we can modify our behaviour.

If we pollute our water systems and air, the pollutants do not magically disappear.

We use all fossil fuels, they are gone forever.

Be wonderful if the earth was just a magic pudding, but I don't (sadly) believe it is. Fervent belief is for the religious.

Loudmouth

Thank you for your positive response to my posts - such a rare thing positivity.

:)

Bugsy,

I should have written "I want to fervently believe in the existence and dangers of AGW". Sloppy writing.

No, Ammonite, the world is not a magic pudding, but it does seem to have a degree of resilience. Someone - perhaps on another thread - wrote about a balance between naturally occurring CO2 and the Earth's capacity to absorb it. Why should there be one ? What if the Earth was able to absorb much more CO2 than naturally occurs ? I'm not saying this is the case, but I'm just wondering: how much 'natural' CO2 can the Earth absorb, given 'natural' circumstances in one case, and given actual man-made circumstances in another case ?

What impact would mass tree-planting have on reducing that CO2, back to a level that the Earth can take up ? Or wind farms + solar energy + geothermal energy + mass tree-planting ? i.e. put far less in, take far more out ? Or are these just dumb questions ?

I'm not a scientist, but I do vote, and I have to have some confidence in the options that might be available, and whether or not they are necessary on the one hand, and efficaceous on the other. No, one cold season doesn't confound long-term trends, but a relatively cool decade goes some way to doing that. Maybe even Satan loves dogs, he's not all bad ;)

Hi Joe,

Talking about Satan... I think it was Mark Twain who said
you go to Heaven for the weather, and Hell for the company.
;-)

Brilliant ! Then I know where I'm going, Lexi. Will you be up there with the angels instead or will you be keeping me company ?

Cheers,

Joe

Loudmouth

I agree planet Earth will be fine no matter what we do - it'll take our sun going supernova, before this planet ceases to exist - even if we went all out with nukes, the planet would still go on, just without us and other similar life-forms. Pays to remember that there have been very long periods where this planet was not a friendly place for mammals. Also, even if we fail to take action, I think humans will manage to survive. However, I would rather live than just survive and we can actually do something instead of sitting around arguing about it.

We have the technology..... which was more than we had during the era of JFK's vision of reaching the moon.

Dear Joe,

I'll definitely be where you are.
Looking forward to it.

Hi Lexi,

Yeah, we'll probably have many (infinite ?) furious arguments - great fun ! And so many of our friends will be down there too, to kick everything along. Sweet !

The existence in the Christian narrative of Satan has puzzled me - if he punishes evil-doers, wouldn't that be what a hypothetical god would approve of ? So in the narrative, is Satan working for God ? So is Satan good ? If not, does he rule over his own independent realm, untouchable by god, and does he still punish evil-doers (forgive the Bushism) - and if so, why ? Is he some sort of sadist, who likes whoever falls into his clutches to feel eternal pain ? Does god have any power over all that, to stop it ? Can people migrate from hell to heaven, in remission for their sins or whatever, and if so, do god and Satan come to some sort of agreement on terms ?

Too confusing ! I'll stay an atheist, thanks.

This is not so off-topic as it might seem: the Greens after all do have their own version of heaven and hell - a Green-designed Utopia, without production, human use of materials or impact on any part of the environment; versus a capitalist-inspired hell, an Armageddon, a thoughtless eating-up of the Earth Mother, a fate which is certain unless people mend their wicked ways and heed the preaching of the Green saints. Not all that different really .....

Here's a thought for Arjay: what if the Greens are really all secret Christians, all obsessed with how to bring about a heaven on Earth, and to avert the hell which mankind is inevitalby bringing on around its own head through its heedless non-belief ?

And what if God is a secret Green, striving to take the world back to its Edenic purity, and - free will aside - has programmed his adherents to support Bob Brown in order to achieve His vision ?

Hmmmmm ....... worth thinking about, Arjay, don't you agree ?

Hi Joe,

I've just remembered an old joke about Satan:

A few minutes before the church service was about to start, the villagers were sitting in their pwews and talking. Suddenly Satan appeared at the front of the church. Everyone started screaming
and running for the front entrance, trampling each other in a
great effort to get away from evil incarnate.

Soon everyone had exited the church except for one elderly gentleman who sat calmy in his pew without moving, seemingly oblivious to the fact that God's ultimate enemy was in his presence. Satan walked up to the old man and said, "Don't you know who I am?"
The man replied, "Yep, sure do."

"Aren't you afraid of me?" Satan asked.

"Nope, sure ain't, " said the man.

"Don't you realize I can kill you with a word?" asked Satan.

"Don't doubt it for a minute," returned the old man, in an even tone.

"Did you know that I could cause you profound, horrifying, physical
agony...for all eternity?" persisted Satan.

"Yep," was the calm reply.

"And you're still not afraid?" asked Satan.

"Nope." More than a little perturbed, Satan asked, "Well, why aren't you afraid of me?"

The man calmy replied, "Been married to your sister for over 28 years."

loudmouth..its green hell
you cop all the guilt and the full tax
and the capitalists are trading just hot air
were in capitalist heaven...[or pure hell to the rest of us]

you said...""the Christian narrative of Satan>..<if he punishes evil-doers,..wouldn't that be what a hypothetical god would approve of?""

no god dosn't
god seeks us to use freewill/love of neighbour..[grace mercy] and logic..to make sense of this gift of life,,,

i know its only too easy to listen to the ignorant..saying satan MADE ME DO IT...!...[pure rubbish..for too many reasons]..first if YOU CHOSE vile..thats your choice]..you CHOSE vile

if it ended there it would still be ok
but it dosnt...[there is no satan]..
but there are many....who when 'alive'...
LOVED the same vile..as we now MAY chose to love

THEY CAN CLAIM US AS THEIR OWN
[cause we bothy love the same twisted vile]
its these who suggest MORE vile..[under the law of 'more shall be given']

no...'satan'..but many vile spirits
[who funny enough resemble demonic children]
who feed off our negative energies..

who can voice their sugestions
direct into their/our minds..
by means the insane call 'voices'

""So in the narrative,
is Satan working for God?""

no one 'works' for god
god wants us to help others

[think of the gift..people give
then tell you
to repay..the gift...by helping someone else]

in helping others..allows more good to be done

one extra
on the side of love

think of evil..as a thing we MUST CHOSE..to overcome
first in ourselves..then...to minimise its being done to an other

""So is Satan good?""

satan isnt 'real'
but lets pretend he is
who are you to judge the means[path]..to love
'yea thou i walk through the vally of vile..i shall fear no evil"

you dont know you can overcome it
till you resisted EVEN the temptations of vile

so he is NEITHWER good
nor evil...[he is an embodyment..of a lie
good from god is the only 'truth'..so no lie is real...[once you KNOW..you love to love]

""If not,does he rule over his own independent realm,""

is the imagination realm real
it sure sems to be real..to those sustaining lies to seem real
but in reality..ONLY their faith/believe..makes it real TO THEM
[think of it as a mass delusion
once they KNOW it ONLY SEEMS real..it disapears
only their faulse belief made it real]

""untouchable by god,""

giod is light
you cant touch light
it touches you..OR you chose to reject the light
and live in the imagined darkness[only the light love logic life is real..!

""and does he still punish evil-doers""

evil doers punish..ONLY..them-selves
see that all who love to rape/murder.hurt/main abuse
they EACH have their own place in the hells..ONLY those WHO LOVE TO MURDER..can live in the 'murder realm'

FOR eternity[if they so chose]
they can murder/rape/main/insult
ONLY THOSE IN THE SAME HELL...[with the same love]

so its murder
and be murded
till you got over this lie
[see in the next life..you cant die
so can be murded and murded again and again and again
non stop....[eternity]..till you 'get over it'..REALISE no one died
[ie are deluding to 'murder'

""(forgive the Bushism)""

no sewat..he was funny
se the joke of making him the press-ident
only in murdoc hell

""Is he some sort of sadist,""

no..apparently..'the demons'..are simply really convincing thought projections[that come from our own fears]..

if you are a sadist..
YOU WILL live in sadist heaven..[we would call it hell]

""who likes whoever""

no WHATEVER..."falls into his clutches to feel eternal pain?""

not eternal...once you realise your deluding..
you tend to wakeup..and try to esacape from that hell
[usually by helping others wake up..first]..ie works

..""Does god have any power
over all that,to stop it?""

he refuses to answer
but we can presume..its OUR CHOICE
who is he to tell you how to live...or what YOU chose to love?

""Can people migrate from hell to heaven,""

yes...but its a long hard journey
[see mindreading..is how we talk here
YOU DONT NEED TO SAY ANYTHING..your soul emites who/what you are in

here you can 'pretend'
in heaven you cant 'fake it'

we all se the light in time

""remission for their sins..""

the word is atonement
[at one meant]..ie that we do to me or you
we do to him*

""or whatever,and if so,
do god and Satan come to some sort of agreement on terms?""

the terms are...allow them to chose
THE WORST CRIME..is forcing goodness..
where there is still too much pain...we will be forgiven
because acording to god..there was nothing tyo forgive

think of jesus saving the woman from getting stoned
WHO AMOUNG YOU HAS NOT ERRED..[ie has not sinned?]

who has not faced the temptation
DOSNT know..just whjat he is capable of doing
none of us are TILL we rejected doing it..

great questions

Thanks, OUG, you might have some valid points. But it's all hypothetical, isn't it ?

Meanwhile, back on Earth, we have real problems - you say, if there is a god, she or he (according to some biblical scholars) gives us choice, freed will, but to an atheist, this does seem to be something of a get-out-of-jail-free card for god. Oh well, I guess she/he makes the rules :)

Another great question, unanswered up until now: how to resolve the triangle that dreadful things happen in the world, while God is simultaneously all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good ? A flaw in the Divine Hypothesis ?

Joe

the thing is joe
your chosing what suits joe best
[and god is fine with that...]

but for those who cant bear the thought
of you free thinking...your own needs
they need a satan...[a santa...clause*

they need a clause to motivate you...to do
what they want/need..you to be doing
by fear threat or any means..they can think of..and thus have

its not meant to be complicated
but evil loves deciete..

[i think its related to small minded..little penus complex]
we either see through the delusions..or get victimised into them

you said quote..""But it's all hypothetical,..isn't it?""

thats a means to cop out
is life theory?
is your chosing[allowed choice..a theory?]
can we free someone..who loves being a slave?

look at how even an open mind
like you dissmisses the point

""Meanwhile,back on Earth,..we have real problems""

think joe..are they REALLY your problems
or are you caught up in believing its all about 'others'..doing it TO you?

""you say,if there is a god""

no i say there is a god
who is supreemly good
who loves each one of us..no matter how vile,

who is beyond sex
""she or he""

god is without sex lable
he is the ideal best mother
she is the father who allways loves his children EQUALLY

'"(according to some biblical scholars)
he gives us choice,""

yes then DOSNT blame us if we chose wrongly
[this time or every time..in time we all get to know him]

""free will,
but to an atheist,..this does seem to be something
of a get-out-of-jail-free card for god."'

its your wrong choices that are forgiven
god forgives us ignorantly blaming/labeling shaming him

he has never hurt anyone
[how come you CHOSE to believer the bad SAID about him
if you really dont believe in him anyhow?]

if he dosnt egsist
then his being good[god]
or not good]..dont really matter

but he does egsist
[well insists actually]..
as he lives..*with/in....*every living thing

[that natural process..of science lol..]

thats god
SUSTAINING us all..our every life breath..
god is..the nurture we see..EVEN in nature

every auto-nomouse response
every living/loving..good..because
*only the good..[of god]..is really real

pain ends..
good lasts for ever..

[once we chose
to eliminate the vile[darkness]..with-in..our selves

""Oh well..she/he..makes the rules:)""

god didnt make any rules
[mosus was a loner..tripping out on drugs]
but..he got many things right..

but..by being huh-man
also got much wrong..[but..i would never say that to him
[for..the wrong really dosnt egsist in reality..

but..that he got right...mate its pure gold]

""how to resolve...that dreadful things happen,
while God is simultaneously..all-knowing,..all-powerful and all-good?""

think of it joe

you live...you think..it was an acident of birth
but mate you ARE..an eternal spirit...growing..[evolving spiritually]

the first-step of your evolution..was being born..[to the teachers..sorry parents..*you did chose]..thats a whole nother topic

but mate..know adversity teaches us things
a child chose their par-rent..to KNOW..learn/teach

what that..life feels like
[a rich previous life..might this time
WANT to know the others side of the story..and THIS time
be poor/hungry..OR VISA/VERSA]

a rapist..might*..be doing karma..by being raped
[it wont wash..as an excuse...but its a way..*to balance

thus a murderer last time..might
CHOSE..to be murderd..this time]

mate..we all got funny choices
in a previous life..you might have been say ghandi
or a deciple...who is now LEARNING..the other 'side'..if only to validate..*ABSOLUTE FREE CHOSING

""A flaw..in the Divine Hypothesis?""

joe i used/to..believe that
i only refused..to 'believe'in god..*cause of the bad
then found out..it wernt god doing the bad..but US vile..chosing it

god is god
because ONLY he can see
through the illusion..only 'he'..can see
the big..*completed picture

jesus came close
but even he..isnt god
but revealed..a glimpse of the good..that collectivly proves god

thanks for questioning Joe

in time we learn answer's..
by the gifts..god gave us all

ie our life experiences

i now am learning..yet more about god[good]
knowing he is*..with-in every living thing...
facilitating them..[us all]..our life/living...

bad is only ignorant choices..
BUT..an oppertuinity to do greater good

by egsample..[by
doing GREATER good]

Hi OUG,

As you write,

" .... for those who cant bear the thought
of you free thinking...your own needs
they need a satan...[a santa...clause*

they need a clause to motivate you...to do
what they want/need..you to be doing
by fear threat or any means..they can think of...."

I reckon they're pushing it uphill with grievous sinners like me :)

Within the logic of Christian belief, OUG, your god does seem to have gender: after all, he is supposed to have had sex with Mary through the Holy Spirit, or the Holy Penis I guess, and Jesus is supposed to be the son of god, after all. Could Jesus have been born of two mothers ? He might have had a longer and happier life, who knows ? But that's probably taking the sexlessness of god a bit too far :)

Still, these are not my problems. There are enough around already to preoccupy us. Mind you, although I give out stuff for the Greens at elections, I have enough misgivings and disputes with them - if I made them known - to be cast out into some nether-world of their own. But when it's all boiled down, one must be true to oneself and one's beliefs, no matter how solitary such a life may be. It's hard to live a lie, and in the long run, what's the point of doing that ?

Joe

not that we get judged
but i prefer an open minded athiest
to any oh so holy minded 'believer'..who refuses to use reasoning

somehow you have it in mind
that..""pushing it uphill with grievous sinners like me:)""

if you were a grievous sinner[whatever that means]
you likely would be able to be..pretending..[faining 'goodness']

or as the bible says...seeking the material 'honours'..
[the favour of men]..material rewards

""Within the logic of Christian belief,
your god does seem to have gender:""

your confusing male..or female qualities
where the father lays down the law
and mum does the nurture thing

god dont lay down the law
he has faith we all 'get it' in the end
wether god is male or female is an irrelivance
its gods qualities..[what he specificly does]..for all living
more than about what sex he/she..is expressing at any given time

gods good is within each father
within each mother[within every living thing
from the greates to the least..from the first living to the last

""after all,
he is supposed to have had sex with Mary""'

he has 'sex'..with every mother
had sex with every father
loved everyone..[mentally as well as physicly

""through the Holy Spirit,""
dont get teqnical...
god's wholly spirit..lies within us all
athiest buddist xtian jew..inside me..inside you

""holy spirit or the Holy Penis I guess,""

it is said..that god needs simply say 'be'
and it is...[if god 'fatherd jesus 'directly'
he needs only say be..and it was..[the koran says it better]

god is the father of us all
we are each..[all]..enjoined mortal heir's
of the immortal..eternal living loving good[god]

""Jesus is supposed to be the son of god,""
yes but so too are you..so too are we all
when jesus said my father,,read OUR father

""after all...Could Jesus have been born of two mothers?""

that gets rather silly dont it
but how about this one..[you will love it]

adam..was a man..created by god...
[in gods ideal image....of what a man should be]
god loves adam...gives him eve-rything..any man could want

EXCEPT..adam..[Xy]
wants what the beasts have
[ie a mate]..

well god gives him..what he feels he wants
takes HIS dna...throws away..the troublesome 'y' chromosone
and makes eve..."XX"...[adam dont know it...but she is teqniclly his SISTER]

god had her revenge?

anyhow it gets better
adam eats the persimmon fruit
breaking gods LAW..[and eve gets the blame]

but by the laws of mosus..
adam could have forgiven his sister her error
[because he is her husband..he COULD as husband..again forgiven eve]

and as her father
again he could forgive his daughter
her foolishness

but there is more to the joke
god played upon a/damm..and eve-ry woman

to wit the talking serphant
did ask eve.."did god forbid"

[and the thing is NO god did not forbid
adam did...[for eve was but a rib at the time]

so all that church patriarchal bull
is just that[as fair as scccrewing around with kids]
ie the sign of the ungodly...who know not their own rule book

""I have enough misgivings and disputes""

yep dont we all
its sure a comfort KNOWING that god dont judge us..AT ALL
because he was there when we done it

[and when it was done to him as well]

that we do for/to the least
we do for/to him as wel

""with them -if I made them known
to be cast out into some nether-world of their own...""

the edits have gone a bit out of sequence
but its not unknown..for the xtian...heaven..[in the dark zone
to do just that]..of course no xtain in the light would do that[neither would god...[under the same least/most rule]

heck there is good and bad,
ammoung every catogory of humanity
its not what we CLAIM to be..but that we chose to love[for better or worse]

""But when it's all boiled down,
one must be true to oneself""

egsactly
we spend eternity with 'ourselves'
and god within keeping the self 'alive'

""and one's beliefs,
no matter how solitary such a life may be.""

again insightfull
[many perfectly good people
CHOSE to reside in the darkness
till they finally realise..they need to forgive their self TOO

""It's hard to live a lie,
and in the long run,..what's the point of doing that?""

again you are spot on
to be forgiven...is as easy as forgiving 'others'

casting no stones
love is all we need find
god does the rest best

sorry is more than a word
without works its worthless

if only those who claim to love christ
tried simply loving neighbour..with all their being

we might sooner realise
we were 'entertaining...*more than angels..[completly unawares]

Hi OUG,

So every base is covered ? Every doubt removed ? I'm sorry but I feel uneasy about playing poker with a pack in which every card is a get-religion-out-of-jail-free card. By definition, according to the rules of this particular game, the banker always wins. A bit like playing checkers with yourself. Or something else with yourself.

No thanks, as I keep trying to tell my designated Jehovah's Witness man.

Joe

joe quote...""So every base is covered?""

no its not joe
every hurt we do to others will be fixed
[as the bible says 7 times over]

just as every good shall be rewarded
in ways we simply cant concieve..in this materialist hell

""Every doubt removed?""

of course not joe
its just that too much has been made over complicated
whereas its only too simple..[its not going to church that earns its reward]..but what good you did with the hand you were given

""I'm sorry but I feel uneasy
about playing poker with a pack
in which every card is a get-religion-out-of-jail-free card.""

its not like that joe
if you love evil...[more vile shall be given]
its just that you wont be the only one there
LOVING TO DO THE SAME OPPRESSIVE HURT..you will be with others of the same love/lusts....its just do you wish to be with those who ACTUALLY love helping others..or those who LOVE actually hurting others

WE all get to go to where we love to do the things we do
the only difference is you/we will only be able to 'do it'..upon others WHO WILL BE DOING IT RIGHT BACK AT YOU*...too

""By definition,
according to the rules of this particular game,
the banker always wins.""

bankers will only be hurting other bankers
murderers will only murder other murders
rapists will only be raping each othe

sounds..""A bit like playing checkers with yourself.""

yes it is
artists with artists
lovers with lovers

sheep with sheep
wheat with wheat
tares with tares

in eternity you can only be in the place
where your love takes you..where each 'room'
has more of the same[and as we love other things
we move on to the next room..[by virtue of our atonement
[at one meant]

""Or something else with""
OTHERS...egsactly like..""yourself."

""No thanks,""
its not an offer i make
its a promise..[and if one day you find yourself 'dead'
yet realise your not dead..you will instantly be able to get out of jail..BY HELPING others see that this jail isnt a jail..they got as they chose..LOVED to chose

everybody wins
no one looses

there is a realm of sport
but each plays EGSACTLY the 'shot'..they intend
the goalie stops every ball..[in short they all allways have a draw]
[its as boring to play as it is to watch]

thanks but no thanks.."as I keep trying to tell my designated Jehovah's Witness man""

thats so funny
i never get the same ones twice

they come to 'save me'
i let them..to help set them free

oh well what would it be
if you couldnt be you
and i couldnt be me

Well, it might sound a bit pompous OUG, but I am more interesting in helping other people here and now, in whatever way I can, there is so much to do besides worrying about my own @rse. God and Satan can kick my soul around the paddock all they like after I'm gone :)

Joe

me too joe
ohh well see ya on the other side
[if im right]..

catch ya later in the flesh..[so to speak]
if your side got it right]

thing is dont judge the artist's worth
by just seeing a bit of his painting

gods not doing the vile
we chose to do it
[or reject doing it]

that shapes
the type of person we are being
as true today as it was tomorrow

we can only be as we allow ourselves to be
but that we can become..well thats up to us

anyhow
thanks for the questioning
all the best

Problem is, OUG, as far as I am concerned, there is no god, so there is no god to either hate or love. There is nothing there, no gods all the way up or turtles all the way down.

To get back to topic, my rough survey of maximums and minimums for the past decade, shows that today, July 23, across the eight capital cities, over the past sixteen decades, as follows:

Highest maximums ever: three
Lowest minimums ever: one
Net in favour of max maxs: two

Earlier in the week, the balance seemed to be pretty even - one max max and one min min one day, two max maxs and one min min another day, and one max max and two min mins the next. On the whole, there seems to be a net three or four highest maximums ever during the last decade, each week, out of six (days) x eight (capitals) = 48 readings per week, or one in ten or twelve day-capitals.

So, yes, there is some sort of global warming going on, but hardly uniform or catastrophic. Plant a few million trees a year and that should suck a bit of CO2 out of the atmosphere. Plant, say, ten million trees per year for fifty years, and (at a thousand trees per hectare) that might take up only 500,000 sq km, but might suck fifty million tonnes of CO2 out of the atmosphere annually. Any takers ?

I hate to be the bearer of good news, but is it possible that AGW can be controlled with initiatives such as this (if it ever gets going) ? I can see the point of wishing for disasters ('they'll be sorry !') but am more interested in what to do about them than sitting back, blaming the oldies, and wetting myself.

Joe

ok back to 'work'
but first..'no gods all the way up
nor turtles all the way down'...is in itself..a way/of thinking

[as in up/down]..but you shall
no-doudt..refine it as it gets re-defined

only posted really to mention
the amazon..has 30 hydro/generators..in the planning

aint it clever..'clean energy'..by flooding forrests

[my only compensation is
that demons..stop them from thinking clearly]

'in-spiritualisation'
[in spi-ration..as in spiritual influx]

sorry to talk in tongues..but im trying to say
a big/key..is clear thinking..especially by our leaders

[i might have said this before]...but
war contravenes the 5 th law..[ie shalt not kill]
but so too..killing others..FOR any reason..especially killing bad people..[who's EVIL lives on]

yes
we fixed..the 'problem'..here
but as vile spirits..they can compound even more vile

[by inspiration..that still quiete voice
within..that evil..is so good at mindlessly..folowing

take these hydro-damms
no greenies..are complaining

they will keep their peace..to kill* off cheap coal
while untold billions of living* things..die
in the amazing amazon..[desert's...desert-us]

why are the churches silent?
what is one called..*who despises religeon
yet loves the messengers/the books..and the love
of the good..of god...who in-spi-rated them into word

sadly
unless we..STOP KILLING..
[even the scum]

unless we..stop war's..murder
stop calling bad..as being good

unless we..find reason..*to love neighbour
more than we chose..to love stupidity

we will loose the amazon next

[as for your tree thingy/plan/sceme...recall
we had a green thing..[tree planting]
where volenteers rushed in
to plant seedlings

*[that all died..because
we done that..[wrongly]..during the big dry]

but hey
each got a plastic body/bag..wrapped arround it
and 3 bamboo sticks..

[wonder who was in-spir-ed
to do that one]

sorry about the negativity
satan...[stan]
was wispering..*it into my mind

and my dumb finger typed it
without thinking..wether it was a good thing to say..
or a bad thing..to resist doing...

thinking is such a gift
thats why freewill remains sacred...
we wont miss the trees..till the last one is gone
wonder why they dont plant FOOD-trees..

[that life can EAT*]

'where have all the flowers gone'
gone to heaven..one by one?