In Australia at the end of the Keating Govt we had wage indexation. This fundamental right was removed by the Howard Govt. The notion that business people should fund the salary increases of their employees, "not Govt's", dissolved in a ideological frenzy.

If we are to fear, the Corporation's and International Mega businesses, passing on the cost of pollution/carbon to the consumer, then insisting that businesses fund increases in salary, equivalent to the rate of inflation annually to their employees ( as once was the right of an australian citizen) is a simple solution that would go a long way towards keeping the bastards honest.

If the consumers living standards are to be undermined or eroded by the increasing cost of essential services, then wage increase's funded by the same business sector compensates appropriately for that. Ending the need for worry.

The notion that the taxpayer should fund his/her own salary increase in the form of tax cuts is erroneous. As we continue to erode our own personal wealth this way,(and the wealth of our country), the very same business sector expect the taxpayer to compensate them.

Working people in Australia have not had an inflation indexed wage increase in over 15 years. Of course people are hurting because their living standards have been deteriorating for that long , on this one standalone point. And as for Carbon,

The notion that the end user is the reason for the way we currently generate power, and so therefore is responsible, is also erroneous.

The man on the street, has had no real input in the decision making process, but the faceless and powerful have. The same wealthy, faceless and powerful people, can now spend their own money on advertising their viewpoints on commercial (free to air) television largely controlled by themselves, with ad campaigns barely resembling the truth.

cont..

Dear thinker 2,

My understanding of the so called carbon tax is that it is only intended as an incentive for the polluting industries to develop more efficient means of industry and energy production that would reduce pollution and in the end it would not be necessary to continue with the tax. Unfortunately it's hard to estimate the time frame. It may not be Australia that will set the direction we might have to follow
the inventiveness of other nations. The fact remains something needs to be done to encourage the reduction of pollution. Perhaps we'll know more after the release of the government's package on Sunday.

Maybe Howard's ETS was a better idea, hell he didn't get it up, Rudd didn't get it up ... third time lucky for Gillard?

Maybe the only real alternative will be plain old rationing.

The government sets the amount of energy to be generated or fuel to be consumed for a given period and each household or individual is allocated a maximum amount for that period.
Maybe they could trade that allocation among themselves but it would certainly cap the amount of emissions being generated.

Not the ideal solution but one that could work.

plain old rationing.
wobbles,
Yes & include breeding ! In the early days nature had its way of curbing excesses but man's inventiveness outsmarted nature via medicine & food production. Now we're gradually getting back to nature again by her baulking at the mess we're making & guess what ? She's on track ! Carbon tax is simply more money for the hangers on & make them feel warm 'n fuzzy. It does nothing for the planet.

Lexi has a point.
Sunday will be informative.
In my view it was never ever, under John Howard or Labor be a crushing impost.
Think about that, would any form of government knowingly destroy any part of its economy.
The very driving force behind this is as Lexi says to drive change,
And opposition to it?
Consider the board rooms of multi National groups, owners and profit takers from dirty technology's?
Any chance self interest, driven by fear of profit loss is funding this?
Now it is known I proudly am an ex trade union official.
Such gets me insulted and my movement and my ALP for among other things funding the anti Work Choices fight,yes we did, guilty as charged we did that in the name of? SELF INTEREST!
The people spot lighting this, are not likely to ever tell us, what funding the anti Climate Change tax funding they receive is.
And from who.
I would ask are any ties, any coaching, or swapping of ideas, taking place between Americas weird dysfunctional, and just maybe bought and paid for Republican party and its branch trading as Liberal/National Party here.
We on Sunday join the better part of this planet in saying we care.
And we are unafraid of the future and its innovations driven by this TAX/ETS
Goodonya Aussie

Belly,
Ok, can you tell us by how much you'll be cutting back on your useage of polluting materials ?
I do my tiny bit by not using frivolous petroleum products whenever official policy permits me to. I don't go to motor sport functions. I don't frequent football matches with their thousands upon thousands of petroleum made seating. etc. etc.

Yes individual, my feelings exactly.

I really get sick of these celebrities, whose lifestyle can only exist if hundreds of thousands of people travel to entertainment venues, who claim to be green. This after those celebrities have flown all over the world to promote the waste.

I wonder how much extra CO2 will be generated by government, in the name of carbon[dioxide] reduction? It will probably take more power to drive the extra bureaucrats, their offices & infrastructure than what will be saved.

im about over commenting on the issue
thus wont be watching her royal highness[juliar]
give her presidential feast of platitudes..BUT WILL BE READING THE LEGISLATION..!

i will be looking for these 1000 ALONE..[who will be paying]
i will be looking by what right..govt is creating these c02 permits
bankers will be buying up and trading..[for a bonus]

the whole issue is poluted
but note..THIS ISNT A POLUTERS TAX
its not going to stop gas frakking water polution of your bore

its not going to stop micro-particulate poisening
of your hair/eyes/mouth/clothing/lungs..in the city
in fact its not going to save the planet[it needs saving from ignorance..but this big new tax is based on ignorance]

take just two big time supporters
of this big new tax...[we simply dont hear them explaining
the science..or infact naming costs...details..who

[thus revealing they are playing
the partyline[fear]..[not the game]
if there is proof..they cant name it

if its the right thing
to fix the wrong thing
or make things worse..

[again they only know FOR THEM..
with their subsidised solar cells..its life as usual...

THEY WONT NEED TO CHANGE

they wont be paying the tax
because its ONLY..lol..*"1000 big/worst poluters..who will pay"

their party loyalty
blinds them from facing the fact
they too must pay..[and keep paying more TILL THEY STOP POLUTING]

its as bad as any do-gooder
doing what they feel is good
regardless of what..the one needing good..really needs

how are carbon credits created
will the bankers be creating them?
after the legislation has gone through?

or will they need to buy them from govt?

its the fed reserve scam all over again

but this time they arn't after the silver/gold
this time its after the very air we need..to breathe

The contributions of the last three posts contain a lot of gas, not sure it contains Carbon.
Writing this slowly Gents, Carbon pollution/tax is not just ,or even first second or third about individuals.
Yes we should act, I am unsure if you want to inspect my rubbish bin.
I no longer go to motor sports, probably for the same reason as Individual, I watch it on TV or maybe he just never liked it.
Side track the issue, ignore its inevitability, rehash Abbott's campaign but look again, understand,what Lexi and I said.
Understand in 10/20/30/ years the progress, innovation, new fuels, cleaner fuels , will not be a product of Belly's back yard.

I really don't understand much of this climate change philosophy. But I do see evidence of 'man made' airborne polution enveloping our big cities every so often, and I reckon we should/must do somthing about that, if for no other reason than maintaining clean air in which to breathe.

Personally, I believe too much has been spoken about climate change by those who are substantially unqualified to do so. How can an economist advise on scientific matters ? I would've thought an eminently qualified climatologist/scientiest would be far better placed to advise both the government and us, in such matters.

On one hand we have the scientific believers, and on the other, the scientific non-believers. It's the political imput that confounds and confuses me.

Though, I expect all is to be made clear on Sunday next we are told. I certainly hope so, for all of us and the sake of our (remaining) industries.

I find myself in a place I have been before.
Asking myself why I post and if I need to do so.
I have opinions, some right some wrong.
Always will have, I fail, always, the Diplomacy test, see I understand how to deceive, how to pretend I am not offended by some things.
How to get on better with people.
But I just do not want popularity more than just being myself.
I am getting it from 3 I have always regarded as Friends.
For pointing out I think differently than them.
OUG mate,you take offense at me often, but I still like you rarely agree with your view but read it always.
I see a reason to fear greens in every statement Browns team makes but my side, left of center wants to silence me?
Abbott, please do not let this pass without thought.
Has Toured Factory's EVERY sitting day! highlighting his fear campaign against the carbon tax.
Read ,understand, comment please, often a set up, interviewing for the cameras his funding manager/factory owner heads of Liberal party branches who own factory's.
This walking, talking photo opportunity has said.
See his statement this day.Gillards tour to begin next week, to inform us of the details, IS NOTHING BUT A seres of? photo opportunity's.
For just a short time, focus on this man not the tax, for just a few minutes tell me, please I think I have to ask.
Give me a list of the things free speech does not include
I will start
ANY TRULY held fears the greens threaten my country.
Any idea majority's have a right to govern

belly quote...""OUG mate,you take offense at me often,
but I still...like you
rarely agree with your view..but read it always.""

belly..i need your input
i need your posts...

every time..you give notice
my heart shrinks..[yes we often dissagree
but were more..*on the same side...[for the really important things]

we both are here mainly to help others
to share our lifes lessons...as best as we can
[to any who care to read our words..regardless of who is saying what]

we play the ball
not the man..[*mostly
or at least..*with that intent]

you/.."I see a reason to fear greens
in every statement Browns team makes""

well my mate/brother..logic dictates
he must have said at least one thing...you agree with

and if you cant think of one thing
ask yourself how come you havnt

this might be a clue?
''but my side,left of center..wants to silence me?""

mate what if?..[the right side
has completly drowned out anything
you could agree with..as said by that greenie[ratter]

mate you know..every body
has a good side as well as a bad side
but realise no one is all bad...[ok hitler bad as the bsturd is..was a greenie..he would LOVE this new tax]..ie you AGREE WITH HITLER..yet cant agree with the green-homo-erectus?

it just dont make sense

in saying it dont sense...*refer's
to the words...i just used

""Abbott,[edited]..Has Toured Factory's EVERY sitting day!""

and juliar is going to do the same
[ie media whoring...that toney has done
ie go onto the road...for media spin oppertuinities
not having a debate in parlement

ie hitting the media trail
during the winter recess

ie copying THE SAME what tony has ben doing
but hitting the road..with her spin..
as tested in many workshop focus groups]

""highlighting his fear campaign""

highlighting HER fear cam,pain[the sky is melting
at the reef..the reef will die...GET IT?

""against the carbon tax}}
the same as juliar will be doing it FOR the carborn tax

.

o sung wu:>> I really don't understand much of this climate change philosophy. But I do see evidence of 'man made' airborne polution enveloping our big cities every so often, and I reckon we should/must do somthing about that, if for no other reason than maintaining clean air in which to breathe.<<

O there are facts and fiction in this debate. Some facts are, in the past century the average temp has risen between 05C to 07C of a degree. Although in the past 10 years the globe has cooled. The fiction is that the climate scientists can predict via modeling, which is guessing, anything based on the two previous facts.

My take on it is this.
When the Green movement gained wider acceptance in the 1960's and 1970's the target was the polluters. The Greens wanted the "money" to invest in greener technologies and spend on R&D to clean up their air, land, and water emissions. So the green movement lobbied the politicians to put in legislations that would force the "money" to invest in these technologies, and many substantial filtering systems were built into new manufacturing and power plants.

The "money" was going to have to clean up their act; at substantial costs to the "moneys" profit. So they put in place a strategy to shift the onus of responsibility to the consumer, as verified in the utterances of The Club of Rome. The “money” hijacked the greens by "marketing" the green message. The oil companies ran spin regarding doing their bit for the environment, the mining companies did the same and you could walk into a trendy clothing shop and buy a tee shirt with some green or environmental message on.

TBC

They got "stars" and "celebrities" to do spin pieces on how they as "superstars" have a green conscience, and are doing their bit personally to clean up their OWN personal polluting act as a consumer; the shift from polluter to consumer was made, and accepted. I was suspicious of this well funded global green movement, and I say that because other than the trendy professional green most environmentalists are poor folk who live a lifestyle not based totally on consumerism. As I said the movement has been hijacked to the extent that Fabian Commissar Gillard is going to tax the consumer and give it to the polluter. As I said the green movement is owned by a handful that own or control the monetary system, trade system and manufacturing.

O the air hanging over our heads primarily comes from the internal combustion engine, we have no factories left. If the “money” were forced to move away from fossil fuels tomorrow, they would have us up to speed within a decade with alternatives, but they own and control fossil fuels.

Belly,
Can you find anything that repudiates this

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/million-to-spin-up-carbon-stories/story-e6freuzr-1226085258662

Apparently adds went in papers yesterday and it was on TV news last night.

This is gross misuse of public monies, no wonder I am a cynic.

Banjo this nation is under attack from it's own parliament, it is as simple as that, we are being used like a $20 whore, they can do anything to us, and they are.

sonofgloin,
I always thought that global warming is an indicator for another ice -age. Don't we have one every 10000 years ?
I don't think it really matters what we do or think, the planet will do what it is designed for. An ice age every ten thousand years. Labor's carbon tax might postpone the next ice age by half an hour but that's about all there's to it.
Also, the sixth epoch, the last of the epochs is lining up for 2012. If that's true than the carbon tax merely ensures that workers are fleeced up to the last moment.

Page 1 cont...

The Govt is increasingly powerless to do anything about it. If they try to combat this with their own ads, we howl our discontent.

You cant show bums on TV, but you can lie out of one, even provide editorial support for an advertiser as news, without any regulator of free to air commercial TV having any inclination to stop it.

It won't be long before we don't make anything, own anything, or know anything, or even control enough arable land to provide our own food, and when the miners leave all that will be left is the hole and a fracked water table.

Is it just me or are we truly stuffed?.

SOG has touched on the point I was hoping to get across and that is, "that we have shifted responsibility for climate damage from the polluters to the consumer".

I referred to an ideological frenzy by the Howard Govt. This commenced this process in our country and now I fear we have reached the point of no return.

Beyond climate responsibility we have also allowed business people in our country to convince and cajole successive Govt's, starting with Howard, (who made changes in law), that have changed they way we approach or even think of our relationships with business.

For example: "we now expect Govt's to provide compensation for falling living standards caused by inflation".

Once we would have expected business to provide wage increases commensurate with the inflation. This was based on the principle notion of; that not only should a business operator be expected to provide a job, but also it was incumbent upon that operator to provide a "real job". In order that living standards for productive working people be preserved. This, essentially, is the difference between democracy and a serfdom.

The very same inflation affecting the average person is driven mainly by business models demanding ever increasing profits, margins, and growth etc, in an economy today, free of regulatory restraint. I doubt that the environment is high on the list of priorities in the Corporate World, at least in our country.

Thinker2 I don't want to appear rude,but carbon is not a pollutant.Carbon dioxide is the perceived prime driver of global warming which in reality,is not happening.Carbon is the basis of life and CO2 makes plants thrive.Global warming is not happening.It is all about Geroge Bush's notion of the New World Order.

OUG I am not a spoiled kid, yes I have wandered off twice before.
And promised myself if I go again it will be forever.
I was wrong, on both occasion's I left before.
I let a bloke get under my guard, that let me beat myself.
I am thinking just why do I post?
I like the place but one day, it is inevitable will stop.
Climate change tell me my detractors, are you aware this is not just and ALP policy?
That much of the world most of the science says it is man made?
Tell me SOG Banjo and others.
What do you know about Abbott's proposal.
You do understand he wants to cut emissions by the same amount as Labor?
Now you do, surely, understand his scheme will cost billions, not funded by emitters, you know tax payers are to pay in the region of $700 each for it.
And as he will not take the extra mining tax but fund middle class welfare you know extra tax will come from? us.
How will Tony fund tax cut and increasing costs at the same time?
QLD flogged me tonight we never got in the game a couple of my players should not have been on the ground carrying the half time oranges.

Belly,
No I don't know what Abbotts policy is and I don't care, nor do I care much for him. I'll consider his policy if an election arises, in the meantime the government is the main concern.

You know I don't consider climate change to be man made as many things are natural and we have no influence over them.

So tell me will the carbon dioxide tax in Aus make any difference to the global temperature? Or will it, as many unionists believe, put their jobs at grave risk?

Now will you answer my question of my last post? Can you repudiate the contents of the the article I gave link to. It quotes Greg Combet who is giving government grants to organizations that believe in man made climate change, to promote the carbon tax.

I consider that to be a gross misuse of public monies. It is not the same as buying known advertising.

What the government is doing is buying people off by saying pensioners will get compensated and now private motorists will not be taxed on petrol. Yet petrol motors are a very large producer of CO2.

Do you not think Greg Combet is misusing public money by giving grants of $250,000 to groups to promote Labor policy?

What is your honest opinion?

Banjo, if a plane went down on Thursday night, Labor lost 5 members,Tony Abbott would be our Prime Minister.
He would lead a party that has as many who openly think as you do, in fact he is on record both saying yes and no, and maybe on this issue.
He also has set a target to equal Labors target.
Now why? how? can contributors to this subject,thread after thread ignore that.
Are the anti tax/carbon man made crews, hurling hate at Labor for having the SAME POLICY'S AS every living former leader of your party except or maybe not Abbott.
Funding REAL TRUE ASSISTANCE, for Tony Abbott's FORGOTTEN? Australians is coming from this tax, you know that too surely?
Abbott,without costing ANYTHING in public, says he is going to.
Spend Billions on cutting climate Gasses, he proposes to fund it from general revenue.
CSIRO and our country's Economists say his plan will not work.
He, failing to like or understand Economics says the Economists are wrong!
His coalition partner has told him to dump his overly generous plan to fund leave for mothers who earn up to $150.000! a year, he needs to fund that too.
He knows, you know, informed Australians do, refugee boat people cost us,yes sorry, about one million dollars a head, he knows his side developed the SOLUTION labor IS USING, TO *stop* the boats, SENDING THEM TO IRAN.
Who pays for the endless stream of offers and gifts promises and commitments Abbott is making.
Can the anti ALP contributors, not every one,some are well anchored, those who post as you do, tell me why Abbott openly lies?
And is not held accountable?
Why lies as headlines,such as Labor to reject taxing fuel are on the front pages inferring no fuel tax increase on ANY FUEL?
Australia, our country our people,are victims of conmen both in parliament and press.
Gillards unsuitability for her job has unleashed a storm of American politics type just say it beggar the truth.
Poor Fella My Country.

Spend Billions on cutting climate Gasses, he proposes to fund it from general revenue.
Belly,
that is just so illogical. how do you propose Abbott or Gillard for that matter to spend billions ? Labor spent all the money there was ? There isn't anything left ! That's why Govt has to raise taxes & introduce new ones. This new tax is just the nail in the coffin for Labor. Australia has now reached a stage so bad that people are actually starting to think about politics. This will be evident at the next election. If there isn't going to be a change then there are more people out who don't think then I thought possible. No tax will reduce pollution, a reduction of population is the one & only factor that will reduce pollution.

Belly:>> Tell me SOG Banjo and others.
What do you know about Abbott's proposal.<<

Belly I am not going to sing Abbotts praises, he is no hero to me, but the Gillard government has got to go, nothing more nothing less.

belly reveals a bad thing we ALL do

quote...""me beat myself.""

too right bluey
wether blowing a horn
or ringing a bell..thats what we all do

we let negativity enter
[thats how/when]..good men/do bad things!

""I am thinking just why do I post?""
[that inner voice of defeatism]

it really is..a demon wispering...
ya couldnt let demons beat you..quiting would make vile people only do more vile[cause they think no-one is watchuing

think of murdoc...and his corrupting the police and govt
[recall how harward gave him so much digetal spectrum
it was rupert that made it high definition digetal..too keep the wavespecrums...he still gets for free]

we could have had standard def
could of had free internet
[instead we ALL need to by new tv..new radio...new vidio
cause we all need to go digetal..next year[THATS JOHN HOWARD]

johnny came up with taxing c02
juliar is obeying the same left wing adgenda

""I like the place but one day,
it is inevitable will stop.""

so we think
but mate if not us then WHO?

""Climate change
tell me my detractors,
are you aware this is not just and ALP policy?""

yes we are aware...belly
we didnt think YOU knew
that ITS

*HOWADS POLICY*...

do you..
*get it
*now?

your SELLING the howard plan
read what others have exposed abouve

i love you brother

but the master/boss
has done EGSACTLY..as johnny did

SET UP EGSACTLY
...what juliar...is NOW DOING..!

he begun it badly
now juliar is finnishing IT BAD

think why..it wasnt 'easy'
WE KNOW

libratter/JOHN LIES*
carbon tax/carbon trading
is HIS last death throws..

but juliar
wants to die
IN HIS PLACE

finishing a thing ..HE CORRUPTED*
he created it mate...the same howard spin/lies!

Belly,
I don't have a party and I do not support any party. when I vote i have a delima as to which major party I will put last, as the second last major party ends up with the vote. I will not put either major party first as i will not let them get my $2 for the vote.

Experience has taught me to be cynical of both parties. Greens are even further down the scale.

Now, instead of the speil, will you answer the questions I have put to you.
A. about carbon tax and its effect on climate
B. about Greg Combet's cash grants to organizations that support the Carbon dioxide tax.

look at what your roboticly saying...""That much of the world
*most of*..[lol]..the science says it is man made?""

most not all
some REFUSE to sell out to a lie
buy into..yet annother howard SCAM*

""Tell me...What do you know about Abbott's proposal.""

he is howards boy
he WILL NEVER GET RID OF IT..!

once we got it..its game over

""You do understand he wants to cut emissions""

but also is AFFRAID of loosing jobs
as long as its jobs jobs jobs..he cant backdown[morrally]

but its a matter of
CAN HE IGNORE..the prizes/preasures..of the liars
can he deney rupert murdocks..of the world?

i hope so
but these people ONLY SUPPORT PEOPLE..they KNOW*
can be corrupted

""by the same amount as Labor?""

regardless of who is supporting..ANY PARTY
parties must die...and people must live

parties have no 'life' of their own
they are but dead corperations
[in serving a party..you serve the dead]

""understand his scheme will cost billions,
not funded by emitters,""

mate there are no 'emmiters'
only those 1000 who WILL BE FORCED UNDER THREAT OF LAW
to pay...whatever the market sets a carbon price at

""you know tax payers are to pay in
the region of $700 each for it.""

REGARDLESS OF WHO WINS
the people MUST PAY..either way..!

""How will Tony fund tax cut's""

how will juliar get the budget into balance
with the BIG NEW TAX*

PLUS..""increasing costs at the same time?""

no matter WHOwins
we all WILL loose*
[arround 888$ each year]

juliar...says more public serrvants
via a 3 year tax take...[it then goes to the carbon traders]

tonlie..says less public servants
saying its their savings in wages/pensions ..that will pay

either way
give us the REAL FACT's
ALL OF THEM*

then let us chose*

Here unless I am a complete fool is reason to fear for this country's politics.
Look in to it your self it is true.
Right now, Tony Abbott, unfit for the high office he holds[as is Gillard]
Is live on ABC TV news 24.
He is attacking Gillards green house gasses tax, claiming it will cost jobs.
He too, can not say it is not true, intends, at a lower cost, but a very big one, to cut by the same amount green house gasses.
He knows his plan costs tax payers, directly and not refunded,over $700 a year!
Tony says Gillard will hurt battling family's, but ignores her plan is to reward pensioners with rises 20% above the extra costs.
And about nine it ten houses will pay nothing! but his scheme costs every tax payer.
AND today yesterday, Abbott is screeching like a drunken Galah! about Julie Gillards photo opportunity tour!
He ,you know its true, a architect of WORK CHOICES started his months ago, touring workplaces!
Gillard warts and all, faults and all has more honesty balance and in every way out performs this awful bloke.

belly,
Comon, Just answer the questions I put to you,

You are the one who brags how forthright and honest you are.

Can't you truthfully answer the questions?

Banjo, have you noticed you never address my question about Tony Abbott?
About us paying for his parental leave, his climate change gasses plans.
Well do you want the truth, EVERY PARTY always funds those who fund them.
Union grants yes, do you know ministers on both sides send mail out to members.
WHY do you deflect questions about carbon gas similarity's in Abbott's team with unrelated stuff, is it you only way to ignore his policy costs us for no real results.
Are you telling me it is ok, lets kick LABOR/GILLARD BELLY. but at any cost REFUSE TO SEE ABBOTT'S PLAN IS WORSE.
I say this, a few in this thread are blind to the truth blindly lashing out while aware both sides say the target is the same.
I under stand, my claim can bring argument, rebuttal, but I truly think the science is in man made climate change is real, is dangerous and may already be unstoppable.
I question the understanding, the qualifications, the evidence, those opposing my view have.
See the population growth from 1750 till now doubled then doubled again, then tell me why man would not have an impact.
Look at the population figures for 1750, see the time it took to get to that figure, then what todays figure is, what it will be in 50 years.
Farmers look at an overstocked Pitt street farmers paddock, see the damage? the world is just a bigger paddock.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/02/2807778.htm
And who pays
For what results
That many trees?
5 Times the size of Tasmania?

Belly,
Should not the date of that article be Feb 2011?

But I think it is rubbish. There is no man made climate change, so no need for any action to reduce CO2, let alone expect a tax to do anything. Abbott was right before when he said it was crap and deposed Turnbull as leader. He gets some points for that.

But he is not in position to implement anything, the government is the one that is proposing to put a tax on CO2.

The article of my previous post was not about union funds, it was about Combet giving government grants of up to $250,000 to groups that support the carbon dioxide tax.

That is public money going to likely groups as the Greens, Resistance, Socialist Alliance and other extreme left mobs. Do you think that is misuse of public money? Did you not read the article?

You should have read mine Banjo, it quoted Abbott just before his first day as leader of his party in Parliament.
EVERY party has given such grants/gifts right or wrong it has nothing to do with this subject.
May I old mate ask,on what basis, using what information, do you say climate change is rubbish.
It is a fair question surely.

Belly,
I know of no other occassion where a party,liberal or Labor, has given $250,000 cash grants to other groups to publicise a pending government policy. Obviously you think it is an OK stratagy, I do not my standards are higher than that. Public money should not be used in this way. No wonder I do not belong to any party.

In relation to man made climate change, it is a theory and has not been proven. Some scientists think the theory right and some do not, but it has NOT been proven.

It is universilly accepted now that the temperature has remained stable or has fallen since 1998, yet carbon emmissions have rissen so if carbon causes the temperature to rise, why has it not done so.

You will not accept that there are things that occur naturally and humans have no influence over. Tides are one, then earthquakes, volcanos and continental drift. The moon controls the tides and some scientists believe that activity of the sun is a major factor in whether the earth warms or cools.

Humans are full of self importance to nature, if they think they have an influence on the climate of the world

Common folks... Carbon Dioxide (CO2) is not pollution. Don't buy into the spin.

'Climate Change' was formerly called Global Warming, global warming caused by mankind. Most people accept there is a change in the climate but fewer everyday believe its manmade. As the majority of people around the world started questioning the AGW theory and losing confidence in the science the green spin doctors subtly shifted the terminology.

Now we have "CO2 pollution causing climate change" justifies a carbon tax. Its all a load of BS and a money grab. Don't be fooled.

Banjo it could well be that I am wrong and totally.
Understand mate I have a lot in common with you.
But on this issue, it is my honestly held view, well I could not live with myself if I held views so silly and uninformed.
I think you know nothing of the reality and only need to walk to any creek and look any park any street ,then tell me again the childish statement?
I hope Friend you are haveing me on,that you are not so proudly uninformed.

belly,
I see that you have no further comments about Greg Combets grants to left focus groups. I'd be too embassased as well if I belonged to a party that condoned such misuse of taxppayers funds.

Yes you and I do have a few views in common, but not on this issue. Nor on the issue of man made climate change.

The warmerist brigade shot themselves in the foot by their exagerated claims and alarmist statements. After 'climategate' exposed the fraud and diddling the figures and the IPCC lost its credability by spruking paper written by students, most people now dismiss the claims of the warmists. Tim Flannery, on the governments payrole, has not got anything right at this stage. He predicted permanent drought and no rains sufficent to fill dams again. Then there was the myths about sea levels rising up to 100 metres? Oh, and dont forget the 'climate scientist' at the now infamous Uni, saying British kids would not know what snow was. Then some people actually believed K Rudd when he said a couple of hot days in Adelaide was due to global warming. Now the alarmists are claiming that CO2 is pollution. How about that.

However every now and then mother nature shows us how inconsequental humans are by an active demo. Like the Floods, Japan earthquake, the volcano in Chile. Look up Kracatoa, a volcano, it effected the earths weather for years when it blew, and we have the audacity to think we influence the climate.

Common sence makes me sceptical, but if and when AGW is proven I will change my mind. I don't even have to keep tabs on it as i am sure the alarmists, like Flannery, will let us know.

Thw whole carbon tax is just a rip off to get more money for government to waste and repay the debts recently made.

Banjo far worse things have been done by Labor and Liberal governments, than the charges you lay against Greg.
Greg is one of the truly good performers in the government,we have many hidden behind the Gillard curtain.
I take this opportunity to hark back to my views stated here, about the Idiotic Member and Government Whip Fitzgibbon.
Although I dislike Julie Bishop his cat call was as dumb as anything he ever did, and his list is endless.
Now SCIENCE a word ignored in this debate, questioning the SCIENCE the honesty of those behind it seems , well it is your right.
But understand it is not an invention of the Australian Labor Party.
A form of xenophobia, in defense of ones views ideas thoughts not people, is finding a home here in OLO.
I do not challenge your right to your views or words but ask that you proved more evidence I am wrong.

I'm not a fan of the current Gov't Banjo, but Abbott is a disgrace followed by a conga line of them. It would be hard to be worse than the Govt we have, but the Abbott led opposition is un- electable. Not even the Independents could bring themselves to do it.

Besides that, it doesn't matter which Govt is in power now, none could hold dominion on our behalf over Big International Business interests, because our law structure is damaged and I repeat living standards will deteriorate for Australians until somebody does something about the restoration of our regulatory structure, particularly in the area of our understanding of the role that business is required to fill in our society.

The economy is Caveat Consumer, meaning that business is effectively exonerated from blame and the consumer is always wrong. The wage earner at fault for expecting a pay rise etc and so on.

Environmental responsibility does not exist and Media corruption is as deep as tapping the phones of the ordinary person. This is probably a world wild phenomena in the Murdoch Empire. With this sort of thing going on , political independence may well be a thing of the past.

Frankly Banjo you should compare the gravitas of my propositions to the unimportance of your debt concealment theories regarding the Gov't.

Belly,
No old mate, it is up to those making the claims of Man induced climate change to prove their case, which dispite billions poured into this 'research', they have not been able to do. The science is far from settled.

As i said, the alarmists shot themselves in the foot by their exagerated claims and they wonder why most people now dismiss their theories.

When they offer proof I will change my mind.

In the meantime, is not oil based fuels one of the major contributors of CO2? So with petrol not being affected and only 500 companies having to pay the tax, the whole thing becomes a sick joke and simply revenue raising.

How long will the promise of no tax on petrol last? Yeah the PM has an enviable record for not lieing.

the joke is only too clear
the simple solution is not present facts
then jump on the opposing side...as they try to make them out

looks like tonies 25 bucks was near spot on
the LEAK...says its 23 bucks...[3 days before juliar presents the numbers]

tony has been telling us its 25..and got poo/pooed
he told us about peterol based car-bon tax..
when the liar was saying 1000 ALONE will pay

ok 2 days ago that became 500
ONLY SO THEY CAN NAME CALL TONEY AS LYING*

they LONG SAID 1000
for 3 days they say 500
the numbers CHANGED...to loose fuel tax

its rather pathetic really
blame this on focus groups?
fukcuss groups is howards way..now its the juliars way

i can hear the fukus group saying 1000?
is bigger than 500

i can hear the fuksuss group saying..9 out of ten wont pay the tax
in fact will get a tax cut...[in fact even make a proffit]

yet the fock-us groups KNOW*..in their hearts
there shall be many[ALL OF US WHO WILL PAY}
or else why 'top us up'..

so why say the lie 1000?
then days before say 500

[to set up toney][make tony look a phoney..
as well as prove juliar a liar]

mate its sad to thinkers..
the ignorasnce of the non thinkers
maybe they should run the numbers by the focuss groups
about opting in or opting out..or taking it to the people

BEFORE THEY COMMIT SUICIDE
before the minester for carbon
poluting..[bert combie]
stuffs up his chances
of ever leading the fgp..['fukus group/party']

formerly called a.l.p...

now become l.a.p...[dog]
for the moneyed elite$

and the carbon..ga$$..changers
into money-changer$$

The big question is, is it going to hurt. Yes!

Will it make a spot of difference to the global problem. no!

I think all politicians should be made to run a business for themselves before being eligible for election.

at lest then they would be liable for their owns mistakes and have to fund them from their own pockets.

I now realise we don't have the courage to discuss real issues on this Forum. If we were to rely upon the Liberal National parties to provide progress and leadership you can forget them. They are beholden to big International business Rehctub.

The recent elections of LNP State Govt's in NSW and Vic, have proved this beyond any shadow of a doubt. The Victorian Gov't used taxpayers money to examine the State Budget using a private firm after rejecting State Treasury analysis, in order that they present falsely, a failing economy. The Victorian economy was of course the healthiest in the Nation under Brumby.

The NSW Farrell Gov't in it's wisdom, decided that the first thing it needed to do, was unleash it's own personal version of Workchoices, upon it's state employee's. High on the list, I'm sure for all Australians,(sic), facing massive increases in the cost of living, not through the carbon tax, but through the impending capacity of business to use the carbon tax as an excuse to gouge in a regulation free and wage rise free environment.

In a nutshell, someone really has to fix the damage done to the Australian way of life, by the ideologues of the past, not elect a bunch of new ones like Abbott and Co. Or any other politician favoured by Murdoch's media Empire.

i note yesterdays lab rebuttal
that a sale OFFER..by a foreign entity

[likely that had to be
submitted to some govt body in advance...

thus one labratters could later relly on
early..into the spin campain..for a new tax..

to wit yesterdays destraction point..
where a specialist coal provider...[for that 'special'..coal
neded to smelt steel..gets a revised take over bid]..

thats 'discovered' as some excuse...
to refute tony quoting..the green line of ending *all coal]

if you dont get what im saying..
then thats cause it was alp spin
media re direction

the real issues were deeper
[look at the timmings]..ie julia went to see rupert
to gain egsactly the same advantages...as witnessed in uk

[her bit was putting the abc satilite tender up...
[see media watch]

she knew that would be news this week
so quickly finalised and setup the presss release on sunday...
when the house couldnt scruitinise it properly for 6 weeks..
and so the caucus couldnt rebell..

[or rather couldnt yell
..till the same time period..has given her a chance
to change the bad poll-numbers]

only 30 percent..like the lies
70 percent dont..

[add in the murdock crime..the sat-rat/tender]
she decided it was sunday...[in one hour]..or nothing
rather that 4 question times[4 hours]

plus hours/days..in caucus

the simple solution
for carbon polution
is doing the right thing..not the wrong scam..built on lies

we have no idea how much co2..
comes from what batch of coal..[old coal will loose c02]

may be wetter or dryer..burn slow..
releasing lots of simple carbon
or fast..releasing ONLY c02

so were going to pay tax BASED on guesstimates...
rounding up..[not down]..on permits to polute..
ONLY 500 will be collecting

that then..will be speculated on
by those guys..dealing in the price of comm-odities[forhuge bonus]
who will send this limited commodity'/product's price..through the roof

based on lies
as a destraction from the boat deals..
that allways get announced too far in advance
then fall down..but back to this odious tax..on breathing

6 states only in usa are 'doing it..[as a trial]
total cost for them is 6 billion

[and their states are much bigger than ours]

yes nz..*has a sceme
its price..is half the price of ours

so guess who's carbon permit's...
we..[the 500]..will be bying
and gues what 'price'
we will be charging you..[ie the set price 23$]

a permit is a permit to polute
here or nz..or eu..it goes into the same blue sky

the scam
is creating 20 new sceme's
crating 5 new burocracie's

when the simple solution was simply doing nothing
or low cost direct actions...

[egsempting petrol..
only to MAKE..phoneytony..into a liar...
removing..how many of the *WORST*..poluters?

but also revealed yet more lies..
[ie 1000 into 500]..etc
with the worst poluters off the list

but the worst one was the trickey
with raising the taxable minimum
while increasing the rate of the tax..threshhold..

[ie clever accounting...that increases the tax
on those at the two lowest rates
while egsempting..[or leaving the rate of the richest..the same]

clearly attacking the middle class
so affectivly silenced by murdock...
doing his dirty favouritism's..for self advantage

[like band chewing bandwidth for his 'high def'..tv...
[to make that format not web friendly.

to ensure his other..franchise's]
plus the uk stuff/
plus the bskyb...

and the equivelent
granted him a chance to out-tender the abc...

*by juliar

ie
what..we would be discussing
if we wernt..made to/be..dissing or cussing...
this..big new/tax*scam..

Thanks OUG for your thought filled contributions;

What is the right thing ? to do in your view OUG, about pollution mean, I would really like to know.

I have a major concern with media hacking phones. The problem is; that politicians could hardly be independent if the Media baron can simply say ,

Well, we have some goss about you attending a gay bar and we don't like that legislation.
Could you do something for us, about preventing that. The very independence of Gov't and Democracy itself is under threat here OUG. But of course I believe you already know this.

The simple solution to carbon and other forms of pollution, is to make business bare the cost of it, genuinely, and comprehensively. Legislate to ensure that the cost cannot be passed on to the consumer. They will soon learn to adjust their business models as will consumers learn to adjust their usage habits.

its better to think of solutions thinker 2
and polution is a huge thing...it much depends on classification

carbon may be called greenhouse polution
but methane and nitrous oxide are far worse
so i would sekout a replacement for nitrogen
like planting crops that fix it into the soil
[thats the biggest issue in the main because of food]

once we got food needs nailed down..its cleaning up water polution
so many closed down chemical factories poluted so much water and land
they are simply speaking globally timebombs..that will continue to make life sick

so much industry did their vile..them simply went away
[like asbestos polution in our homes..or like polio vacinations
in russia and africa..[made from sick monkey serum]..that gave us aids

then there is gmo of course
the reports are that gmo causes infertility
we of course have anti-biotic resistance from over use of antibiotics
[and the polution of all the excreted drugs into our sew-rage

[that in time will be put into our water..directly..
or via those billion dollar salt water desaltificatioon..plants...that are rusting away as we speak

lets not forget air polution from micro particulate
from petro fuels[who's carbon polution...apparently isnt any concern
[forgeting that petro diesal micro particulate is the prime cause of cancer of the lung..next to wood smoke in the third world]

seems we got plenty that is really polution
that we can hope to fix...without getting rid of the cheap energy
that helped mankind get this far...get the real polution..dont spin were fixing polution..then reveal the c02 were getting rid of is the bubbles in your bread/softdrink/beer

we are being spun spin
yes getting rid of polution is the right thing to be getting done
[but were getting rid of the least greenhouse gas first[ignoring the far worse nitrous oxide and methane..made by industry and farmers]