When Kevin Rudd appeared on Q&A and told us all that 'some in the ALP never wanted a carbon tax' we all 'wondered' if that was Julia Gillard.

Now, with the AWU boss coming out to warn her off a carbon tax, lest his union loses a single member, we find out just who those in the ALP are who deny the need for any action.

This action also conveniently allows Julia to dump the tax that she never supported herself, very cosy indeed.

Paul Howes, the man-behind-Julia, pulls her strings in the economic field while the Christian lobby pull her 'moral' strings.

The extreme right of politics, which is where the AWU sits, is in full accord with the extreme right of Christianity, both climate deniers.

It's worth remembering that Wayne Swan is also backed by the AWU, so when Rudd was trying hard not to name Julia and her backer Paul Howes, was he also trying not to name Wayne Swan?

I was looking for the punch line Blue, but when I couldn't find it I realised you must be serious.

Surely the slime ball, you, & his mates in the ABC chardonnay set don't think they can do it again?

Unbelievable!

The Labor Party are in absolute chaos.They don't even know what they believe.Poll driven policies and their control by large corporate interests has made them impotent and incompetent.

Labor no longer believes in any social justice, our sovernignty,or the country's well being.All is explained away by Globalism.It is all out of their hands.Why then should they then exist at all?

Hasbeen, sorry but I am not sure I follow your thinking here.

"Surely the slime ball, you, & his mates in the ABC chardonnay set don't think they can do it again?"

Am I the 'slime ball' you refer to, or is that Swan?

Does Swan have mates in the ABC?

I was unaware of that, but I am not sure it is the least bit relevant anyway.

I am serious, and like Arjay I, and many others, can see the ALP barely deserves to exist anymore.

Gillard is in a precarious position in government but she has given up 'government' to concentrate only on 'politics', and it is resulting in very bad politics that so resembles Abbott's that, frankly, we might as well have Abbott and be done with it.

Arjay is spot on, the ALP are bereft of any hint of any distinctive ideaology of their own.

Gillard has now resorted to a Poor Laws attitude, tied to her Baptist notions of noblesse oblige but only for the 'deserving poor'.

Gillard is but a husk of a person supported by the AWUs Swan, who is clearly controlled by Howes.

We have the worst of every possible world with Gillard and Howes, sorry, Howes and Gillard, running the nation.

Hasbeen I have doubts you are some times in control of your thoughts.
The Blue Cross is a green, very much so, but you have no right,NONE to put words like that in print.
It is WRONG, totally to think for a second Paul Howe's controls Gillard.
I think highly of him.
And as you know am A REFUGEE from one branch of my LIFETIME UNION.
It is leaderless, Howe's rides three horses here, steel making is AWU coverage.
Members fear the dribble,yes dribbling out of the policy's.
Look to Bill Ludwig for direction the AWU thoughts on this.
No one knows,just what direction or plan Gillard has.
Fear is natural, and concern about job security too.
Gillard, LONG AGO, abandoned ANY LOYALTY to the union movement.
SHE and SWAN, helped by an ex ALP federal secretary did not want an ETS.
never EVER forget NEVER FORGIVE the greens intent on a cost that would cripple this country, stopped Labor getting an ETS.
Gillard should go Labor should put up an ETS or nothing
But while the TBC is following a path I reject He has a right to do as he wishes
I invite every reader, greens for sure to read about the Marickvill city council, its green leadership, its directions and silliness
No conservation just extremism.
A wolf in sheep's clothing.

Sorry, Belly, this long-time Labor voter thinks that Gillard and her government are appalling.

I still can't engage much in politics at the moment because I'm so disillusioned by the spectacle.
Where is the distinction between Abbott's mob and Labor? Political ideology (and I use the term loosely) emanating from both sides is identical in its odium.
In fact, I can't see the reason for all their cross-chamber animosity because both parties represent the same vacuous policy direction.

Gillard is hollow and reactionary. Her penchant for blanket standarisation - a la My School, is indicative of a puritanical attitude to the populace at large. She's all statistics and no substance.

She'll have us all sitting on spikes next

My feelings too Poirot. There is no substance on either side of politics and certainly very little to distinguish them except perhaps in IR - even then miniscule.

You would hardly know Gillard was from the Left faction with the new war on welfare, following in Abbott's policy announcement. The Nauru/East Timor fiasco, another scramble so as not to lose face. More of the same.

Much rather each party just state emphatically we believe in X, Y and Z vote for us or not. Even better, make some improvements to allow participatory democracy on some issues.

Belly, yes, indeed I am in the Greens, and well aware of their failing in many areas, however, since I continue to vote, I vote Green and reluctantly, very reluctantly, in fact only under extreme pressure, do I then force the ALP to earn my vote by having it cascade through all the rightwing nongs that pass as 'independent' in my electorate before being lodged in the spot but one above the biggest nong imaginable, our local Coalition MHR.

So, not too much ideology involved there, I'm afraid, except to this extent, I recognise, as others here state, that the ALP and Coalition are devoid of any visible signs of integrity or intelligence and both have abandoned whatever founding ideology their parties once had.

I describe Gillard as a 'husk', and choose that word very carefully, but the same could be said of the two major parties too.

Belly, you must have missed the ABC 'special' on Howes where he bragged about his brilliance and his role in supplanting the much hated Rudd (good on yers there Howie) and installing The Husk we now suffer.

You know very well that Swan is the plaything of Big Bill, as is Gillard via Howes.

Still, having read the hagiography on Gillard you and I do agree that Gillard has no understanding of the role or need for trades unions. Her interest, like so many in the game-of-factions, is simply in what they deliver as a personal reward.

To that extent, old guard, new guard mudguard (as Joh used to chirp) it makes no difference, factions are soap boxes from which to posture, preen and secure red or green leather seats from, and that is about all, because once sitting, all 'policy thoughts' minimal though they might have been in the first place, simply vanish a in puff of invisible smoke.

As for the council you mention, yes, I'd probably agree that they are into 'over reach' and should just get on with the three Rs that they probably struggle with anyway

It is not a last minute change for me, I too am much more than disappointed with the federal ALP.
My federal party is out of touch with me and its followers.
Have no doubt.
None! My often used statement that Labor is being propped up by Abbott and his ranting, are my true views.
As it is for my view Abbott too has Gillard to lean on, or he would not be his party's head.
GREENS ARE NOT an answer, Marickville WARNS US ALL close ties with the very left unions too stay away from greens.
Gillard UNDERMINED Rudd, grubs who live under her umbrella like Simon Crean[a man no better than Latham] too.
My party is to say the least unimpressive.
I highlight the following are my views from outside, no information just thoughts.
Howe's has not bought about a vital change in the NSW AWU.
He is under fire by self interests within industry and the union.
Labors feed the chooks a bit here and a bit there, is hurting every one.
He always has the task of growing and protecting his/my union.
Its members/workers are the only reason it exists.
TBC is having himself on, Howe's is not tied to HMAS Gillard the Aussie Titanic in waiting.
continued.

You know Belly, there was not one single trade union during the Hawke-Keating-Kelty era that hesitated for ONE second, including yours (and mine) while job redesign, award restructuring, structural adjustment and enterprise bargaining reduced workers wages and power and shifted whatever jobs we had left here, overseas.

NOT ONE.

And your union was in this up to its armpits, exporting jobs for all they were worth.

So, do please spare the heart strings about 'saving jobs'.

Howes BOASTS about installing Gillard. Are you the only poster here on OLO not to have heard him?

Along with the Prince of Darkness too.

No, not Joe Lucas, Mark Arbib.

We are living in historic times.
It is very rare to have a hung Parliament, unfortunately not for a divided senate.
So in expressing dislike for Labor or Liberals[ I consider Nats a room within the Liberals] do we want more independents?
Are we pleased with current dealing by some like Wilkie who ran third in his seat, but got in on preferences.
Forget the slanderous taunts about them,all party's would have dealt with them.
Each was elected as a refugee from his side of politics after all.
So are we to wait for the perfect party,a train that will never come?
Or blind our selves to the reality of the greens?
Go please just goggle Sydney Sunday Telegraph.
Todays one.
Read the story about Marickvilles lord Mayoress, a green,her or is it 5 greens, look too at 4 ALP half wits! far worse.
Who supported a vote to ban goods from Israel.
See how bill posters calling for a no green vote had greens youths chant Zionist at them!!~
Find balance Piriot, you are far too wise to be used by such.
As bad as they are the ALP is the only ship carrying my wish for change and improvement.
Unless I am very wrong our lost leader is setting sail for a war and Double Dissolution election, disillusion is assured without leadership change.
CONSIDER HOWEVER Tony Abbott with control of both houses ,remember greens are no longer a long term bet.

I have only just noticed your post between my two TBC.
I have no defense about Labor under Hawk and Keiting exporting Australian jobs.
But I claim understanding, more I am afraid than most.
We traded by opening our banking system and getting truly involved in world trade.
We left our small country based on sheep and grains and became a trading nation.
Opening trade to America and many other country's, unions took part in the accord, in my view it took more than it gave in the short term.
But the days of unions against everyone needed to go.
You remain not just wrong but badly so, Paul backed the removal of Rudd, but he has not alone got the power to remove or prop up Gillard.
We MUST BE REALISTIC.
No government in the world can bring back protection barriers like those we had,and still claim to want free trade.
We can not compete with other manufacturing country's,to say we should/could is folly.
The exported jobs, see nation wide clothing and textiles,went and would have, to avoid our wages structure.
Consider this, at best greens get 12% of the vote, have no chance of power without Labor or Liberal EVER.
Labor at worst gets 43% two party preferred, Libs at best?less than 50%
How many Australians want us to continue to be involved in world trade?
who wants self interest groups to get tariff protection that may see this country suffer to prop up industry that can not compete.

In a forum that has so many who contribute to conversations about politics.
At a time we truly stand challenged by poor leaders and worse policy handling we find many unwilling to contribute here.
Why have Australians gone from strong support for climate change action to strongly against it.
Why have the policy's of John Howard and Turnbull been ignored.
Kevin 07 is now a doggy bag of left over half hearted half eaten policy's.
Stubborn refusal of Gillards very active,left overs from her partner ship with Latham, are not unlike Mark.
Self promoting overly ambitious but unskilled in the extreme.
Gillard has been left then right for then against every thing.
Both ex leaders are more wanted than the wasted ones in control now.
Yet still, some think our dysfunctional Parliament needs more power to the far worse lost forever greens?
Dream your dreams my middle and upper class ex brothers, but the truth is greens are the nigh mare for all who love this country.
Consider this, we would have done already what every country one day MUST had an ETS,but for the radicalism of the greens.

Belly, you sound like an hysterical Cardinal Pell, or a halfwitted editor/journalist from The Australian.

The climate, economic and social position we all find ourselves in are the direct result of the policies of the major political parties all over the western world.

YOU and YOUR views, and YOU and YOUR blind support for anyone in the ALP, are far more dangerous than a person who hopes for a more sustainable economic and social system and dares to question what is on offer now.

You are blind, you are irresponsible, you are a cypher of the hegemonic forces that are destroying the very world you say you like!

Take stock before you lose all sight of what you actually value.

TBC thanks, truly I needed that! now I add that badge of merit to others.
Some who know nothing of politics here have said much the same of me.
Some who know little of anything have too, here.
Others blinded to other than right wing near fascism of tea party conservatives as well.
However of all those awards yours is most valued, if I offend such an entrenched green I do well by working class Australia.
In my hungry youth my first memory of an active roll in politics was standing at age 5 along side my dad.
On election day out side what was to be my school,dad handed out Labor HTV.
He was spit on, by a man who spoke of England as home, but was third generation Australian.
He did no answer his door that night.
Folly took me to think Communism,then Socialism was the answer to poverty.
Still dream on TBC we have moved on, wise men and women understand, most of us do not want those folly's to rule.
Most want to help others but to be rewarded for effort.
12%! never in my lifetime have we been more upset with our major party's.
YET 12% is the best your lost radical mob can get.
Its all down hill for your dream time mixture of radical/rat bag/refugees from reality.
Read the history of Marickville Council, see even Bob Browns thoughts on it.
Understand the impending double dissolution election will forever marginalize your party.
For too long a refuge for ALP voters its only purpose now, the only result of its direction, is to keep conservatives in power.

Belly,

Tell me what Labor stands for these days?

Australia must NEVER FORGET it was in the greens power to pass a bill bringing in an ETS.
From a base of 12% of the vote.
They wanted to set a price that would cripple this country.
Conservation? not in the slightest banning trade with Israel is more important than our environment.
Join the Liberals or my mob,but do not be fooled even the extreme left have found a home in the greens.

Poirot

Poor Belly suffers the same problem as the ALP, irrelevance.

I am far from being a all-the-way-with-Brown acolyte, I have very serious doubts about many of the people in the Greens.

They seem to attract serious thinkers, like Brown, and at the branch level of lot of wierd crystal gazers and well meaning warmnfuzzies with no clear identifying political theme running through the party.

Merely 'saving the environment' is as meaningless as anything the ALP 'grand policies' once stated.

There is a shortage of policy detail in the Green camp, for sure, but at least the ideal is right.

You ask Belly what the ALP stands for.

He can best answer that for himself, but I also wonder why anyone would even spend two seconds considering the ALP as a serious party anymore, having absorbed all the Coalition policies since 1983 and making them their own.

Gillard, more so even than Rudd, represents all that is failed about the ALP, hence my choice of the word 'husk' to describe her.

I think Belly will have to retreat to before Chiff's days to find something worthwhile, because there is no evidence that the ALP cares about anyone without lots of money, a deep religious 'faith', fully employed and totally healthy, not afflicted with any form of mental illness, and so on.

Still, maybe he will just realise there is nothing positive to say about the modern ALP and his silence will speak louder than any feeble claims he attempts?

Belly,

I agree with TBC.

You said, "Join the Liberals or my mob...."

What do you mean "or" - is there a difference?

Perhaps if Labor did represent an alternative, the Greens would not be hosting their disaffected vote.

I too have a Question.
Piriot/The Blue Cross.
Can you say I am wrong in making this statement?
For every green voter, three are totally repelled by them?
And at our lowest, a spot we deserve, we have almost three voters to your one.
Nation wide 88% of Australians do not share you loyalty .
ALP at present has much to do, some protecting it today need to look at leadership and polls.
But what do the greens stand for? are you really sure they are not just a lost rabble of lefty dreamers and middle class nongs?

As I thought Belly, you are totally unable to explain what the ALP stands for today.

As for the level of support for the Greens, who knows how many people are 'repelled' by them , other than you and Cardinal Pell that is?

Yes, more people vote for the ALP than the Greens, but don't forget, even I very reluctantly 'vote' for the ALP with my cast off preference vote, but I most certainly do not support the ALP, in fact, I was so disgusted by them I resigned when Beazley was leader.

The ALP is losing members all the time, and now only ALP officials and union officials make up the membership. There are no real numbers of 'ordinary people' left in the ALP anymore, so disgusted are people by its poor behaviour and lack of integrity.

I reviewed my thoughts as I had expressed them in this thread over night.
I often do, and think it is of benefit to us all to do so.
Yes Passion is on display, and no I am no longer part of my union, oh I have one, just maybe two mates there.
And a few hundred members who still are too.
But my branch suffered a bit,and it still is, an ego out of control has killed forever? the relation ship with past members, including life ones, no I am not a life member.
SELF interest has blinkered that place.
My party, any one,any one,can find in my posts if ONLY THEY LOOK I am unhappy with them.
But true reform only comes via Labor.
Post big Mal two leaders put us on the map, gutsy reforms even conservatives knew took guts.
We stand for reform, we said sorry we in NSW made more National parks,we helped Brown get his win Labor saved the Franklin.
I could pat my party on the back in ten posts.
Now is not the time for it.
While we stand head and shoulders above Abbott we are bound for the rocks.
Even Howe's yesterday made public noises that neglected this.
Our party is in need of help, infested with left overs from Mark Lathams self indulgence.
A leader who can best serve by leaving now,and behind the scenes idiots who produce policy's in a badly set up machine left over from a stone crusher.
I now my green opponent tell you this,the fact we are too close to your mob is hurting my party.

Now for the greens only about two in ten truly understand politics.
Oh others think they know,have seen glimpses from TV news or shock jocks, had mum and dad say always vote for our mob.
But few look deeply into a simple rule, for every action there will be a reaction.
How many remember Browns words to Bush,his party's plans to remove our armed forces and hope we never need help.
How would our economy be if we stopped using and exporting coal.
TBC how many Australians think like the greens, can your party have ANY POWER without riding on the back of mine or conservatives?
Is it not true largely it is a hiding place for ex ALP voters who want things other than the 88% who never will vote for your team.
Tonight, ANY who claims interest in politics must look, Marickville council, a green lady Mayoress her green colleges, and FOUR IDIOT ALP councilors.
Sit to see if it is truly the business of an inner city council to draft this country's International policy.
BLESS them!my silly brothers and sisters too!
We at least seen how deadly it would be if such got true power.
Some call for more party's, some more independents.
I think those who have our country's best interests at heart should think of fixing the ones we have.
We have seen the DLP twist the working class leg keeping conservatives in power.
That is our fate in harness with the greens/lead by Gillard/without change.
Out the back off Parliament house are the bones of one nation Democrats DLP and soon the greens.
We will be better for it.

Belly, you repeat yourself in frothing anger.

Direct your anger to your own conservatism and your conservative political party.

The working class are and always have been right wing. The DLP merely tapped into a period of religious bigotry that Australia happily absorbed and nurtured, for years, still in fact, and took the working class traitors with them, which included rather too many trades unions, including yours.

I agree that most people do not bother to even try to understand 'politics', and those ALP drones who remain in the party are one eyed 'true believers'. There is no 'thought' process to most people's attachment to their political party, hence their rapid decline these days.

I note that you are still unable to nominate a single 'ALP Value' in all your ranting so far.

The Greens are full of ex-ALP members, that is true, and is a mark of how foolish the ALP have been in adopting the neo-liberalism of today under Hawke-Keating and cutting off their nose in the process.

Your 'best performer' is Arbib, the Prince of Darkness, who can shed no light on anything.

Your 'most desired' is Shorten, a man who supports school chaplains for their 'moral values',yet was still able to ditch his missus and took up with the False-Queen's little gurl, in a typical display of double standards, on a par with Gillard's return to her Baptist church at the same time as living in sin with a bloody hairdresser!

Really Belly, your lot is done for, and good riddance too.

However, you and I still are faced by drongo's as big as your lot, in the Coalition.

The similarity of your crew and the Coalition tells me that the Australian public has no interest at all in politics. When the next crash comes though, there will be no 'alternative plan' to the one we now have, and Australia will descend into an even more conservative paradigm.

I am sure you will be proud to have been a part of our nations downward spiral.

TBC

Your summary of ALP dovetails with mine. Have been voting Green, they have made progress since the early days of protest in Tassie - check their website, they actually have excellent policies.

Belly, I know you have a good heart but you are letting your sentiment for what used to be the ALP cloud your ability for objectivity.

Ammonite

I'm in the Greens, and know their 'policies'.

Yes, there are some different and more appealing ones there, in a skeletal form at least.

But I fear some of my fellow branch members, who are about as interested in broader questions as they are in detailed policies.

I do despair at times, but a political machine is a political machine, and all must have the same problems- the ALP certainly did when I was a member but at least they knew how to drive policies within to get outcomes.

Belly is a left-over from a distant age, and still dreams of Chiff' and his Light.

The Chiff' lantern was dropped down the well years ago, and snuffed out.

Even the Tree of Knowledge has got its comeuppance with a drink of Roundup, and all the old symbols of ALP pride and power have now gone, except for Australia's Worst Union, the prime mover of the labour movement in Australia then, and now, being the puppetmaster behind Gillard's 'thinking'.

TBC

I am not blind to the shortcomings of the Greens either.

This malaise of democracy is evident in Australia, Canada, USA, Britain and countries in Europe such as France, Germany and Italy. The only places which have some semblance of democracy appear to be places like Norway, Denmark, Sweden - ironically considered socialist by many.

Maybe we have to hit rock bottom for real and workable change to occur - if we don't destroy ourselves first.

Having said all that - we are still further enlightened than we were a century ago with regard to equal opportunity for women and at least we can discuss homosexuality and no continued pretense of the love that cannot be named.

As for caring for our environment, we have been aware of wrecking that which sustains us for eons - unfortunately throughout history there are always those who view the world with short-term gain and they appear to have the upper hand ATM.

I never could've predicted the rise and influence of fundamentalist religion or basing well-being on the abstraction that is current economics - bound by such narrow parameters as to benefit the few only.

And the ALP has fallen for what used to be called Rational Economics, well at least we can discuss it - for as long as the internet remains available to all.

TBC and Ammonite you have echoed the thoughts and feelings of many people disillusioned with the mainstream parties. Now that the Greens have a higher profile will they remain true to their convictions of transparency, or will they end up flopping around in the political quagmire of Australian politics?

The Greens as a new force is ever evolving and some of the policies are not yet well formed, but many are worthy if only people took the time to read them rather than make judgements on what they think the policies would read. The Greens are the only party in Australia who value and understand the connection between human health and wellbeing and the environment.

That is the 'way forward' no matter the Laberals take on neo-liberalism and (ir)rational economics.

Indeed Ammonite, we do progress as humans even as we undermine our existence.

Funny eh?

I think that's what offends me so very much about the religious right, who would take us back to witch dunking days in their search for our imaginary Golden Age of yore.

As for your comment on benefits to the few, surely, that has been our history so far, and of course, the church-state complicity has powered that for centuries, and will keep doing so unless the church power is curbed at some stage?

Curbed, note, not exterminated, since for whatever reason, many do find solace in the arms of this cruel bestial creature rather than try to find out the reasons for their plight with some introspection and broader horizons at the same time.

I'm pretty sure I've seen Squeers offering the 'down to rock bottom before rising' concept, which does seem to be what we are doomed to suffer.

When the China bubble blows, we will be in trouble, and our decline will be far more noticeable, I fear.

The Blue Cross & Pelican

Hope is knowing people like you are in this finite world of ours.

I am both amused/ bemused by the thought I post in anger.
Or that my thoughts are blindly for my party.
ONE I am a refugee from my branch, it is in the hands of self interest not the party's.
TWO I am not much liked for insisting my party not get its information from middle class intelligentsia running its branches.
I represent the true worker,the people who elect governments Liberal or Labor.
TBC said the truth,workers often vote conservative.
Roll me around in the mud, any substance you want, out in the farm yard if you must.
But never forget it is pure maths,not dreams that put governments in power.
I see my words and fears being supported here, nigh mare stuff, Labor compelled to be in opposition for a very long time, by the radicalization of the greens.
Can you not see it?
Policy's that do repel more than they attract will not let the greens grow.
How many of you wish to talk about the extremism of Marickville, its council, its meeting tonight to withdraw and white wash a VERY EXTREME ACT?
No anger or heat in my post, no taunting, no hiding the fear of greens many faces many radical policy's.
No way I can hide the damage yet another generation of well meaning but not understanding left of center folk are imposing on this country, conservative government.
Tell me, time over would you back a carbon tax or happily see us have no action, conservation for the Greens is only a useful tool.

Belly

I understand you write the truth as you see it, a rare enough ability these days. Yes, you are probably deeply resented within the ALP and your old union, I don't doubt that at all.

To some extent we are in full agreement, although obviously you baulk at anything Green, except that I suspect you do support policies that address 'green' issues that are now in the mainstream, because of The Greens and others raising concerns over many years.

And you do clearly recognise the abject failings of the ALP and unions even.

Where we differ is where to go next.

I see no reason why the ALP couldn't do a 'Damascus turn' and ditch the worst aspects of its current policies and thinking (if that is the word for it?).

Particularly since it relies on Brown to govern.

Pandering to the Abbott and industry camps all the time and with the exclusion of the usual areas of engagement from the ALP, the lower end of society wealth and knowledge distribution, is simply going to ensure, as you say, years on the outer-where they will belong.

As for Marickville, I couldn't be bothered to even look. Tiny councils should run the 3Rs, and work towards amalgamating themselves into bigger units by joining their neighbours as bigger councils.

I do agree with Rudd there, leave foreign affairs to the level of government that deals with it. By all means the individuals can run whatever community campaign in their own time, or resign from council and do it full time.

Still, it's good to hear of a council that is not engaging itself with stroking developers at every turn.

We will have a carbon tax and the sooner the better. The ALP is doing finely, in a difficult envoironment. I don't think the AU people will have a ballot like the last one again.
The libs still have Tony as leader, which is surprising.
We need change to get off the oil cycle, and come up with alternatives.
My truck is running on diesel with hydrogen laced intake air, certainly makes a difference in pulling power at higher gearing, which saves me fuel. Change will only come with a little force..

TBC I have always thought you and I are closer than you think.
You should look at the rag tag group running that council.
Brown knows great harm was done to greens as a result of their madness.
Now I looked after forests and national parks,as well as a lot more.
Those folk are conservationists too, but those governing them both government and departments are not.
I think we should be compelled to plant two trees for everyone we remove for at least 100 years.
But while unhappy with my party's progress, its leadership, I believe with every sense in my body we are in trouble, we a party of reform, just MUST get better.
To win we MUST take middle Australia with us, Howard did Rudd did.
And if truth be known others within the party contributed as much to his fall as he ever did.
If we do not have the guts to change lets put Rudd back in.

Belly you asked earlier in the thread "Why have Australians gone from strong support for climate change action to strongly against it."

From my perspective a big part is that we don't think the politicians who will set it up are at all honest. It's being used as an excuse for other actions, eg the suggestion that most families will be so well compensated that they will be better off looks like a run at wealth redistribution rather than an attempt to get most families to reduce their carbon footprint's.

There is also some fairly suspect behaviour from those promoting AGW that rings alarm bells in many minds.

Many have had enough experience with government action to doubt that many people or the environment will be better off because of government action.

If the government want's to lead the way internationally they could look a lot more credible by taking action that impacts on politicians first.

Much greater use of teleconferencing rather than government (and taxpayer funded seats on commercial) jets might be a good starting place. Of course that would cut out one of the perks of the job.

R0bert

Direct your anger to your own conservatism and your conservative political party.

Iam not saying nothing:)

LEAP

What does bob brown save, the planet, Australians , stamps, housing, and its affordability(shelter), money, pensions, others, koalas,trees, soil, novelty items,art work, food, company, goodwill at less than 7%?

Well I did say only 2% truly understand politics, thanks for the confirmation.
Last night, read any NSW paper,Marickville council with drew its support for that boycott.
An inner city multi cultured area bad words got thrown around,in Arabic and English cowards was one word.
My idiotic party members who supported it in my mind prove the need for party pre selection in electing candidates, these 4 should not be in the town hall mop and bucket in hand.
Far from mainstream Australia and further from reality this miss mash of fools was not elected to make Foreign policy's.
But in some ways is the very best evidence the greens are not just a conservationist party.
In the minds of rural Australians they are doing much more harm than good.
Rather like the thought that I a mainstream Labor supporter could be called conservative.
Remember harsh but true,tell me it is not, for every green voter nearly eight would never consider voting for them.
This is not Sunday football ,not my team or nothing, it is our country's future and in time greens will migrate to yet another party as theirs is increasingly infested with fools.

Belly,

How do you think about the carbon tax, now that the unions are giving it the finger, and now that 59% of the population is against it.

I believe that Juliar was against the carbon tax, but in desperation agreed to it to get the support of the greens. She is now paying the price.

She has effectively sacrificed the long term credibility of the Labor party for personal power.

SM, err, Gillard is not 'the' reason for the ALP to lose all/any credibility, that honour is spread amongst many, including Juliar.

The rot set in years ago, and the ALP has been in steady decline ever since.

I know, I was once a member.

But, Gillard has put the icing on the cake, as it were.

She is incompetent, and untrustworthy, totally.

I care not about a carbon tax, and certainly not one that the ALP-Coalition would agree on.

If anyone at all is interested in reducing carbon, then that means reducing consumption.

That means redesigning our entire global economic system, which I would support but will not be done.

I hope the carbon tax fails, but not for the same reasons as you and others here.

Abbott has no answers either, and will never understand that our very 'success' needs to be questioned.

He has neither the IQ nor the vision to 'think ahead'.

He is as dim as Gillard, and as useful.

A test of courage is being failed within the ALP.
Gillard can not win an election, she was against the ETS she should have supported it and only it.
I think her leadership is putting my party on the benches your team now hold,and destroying trust for a generation.
Just consider this, if Rudd was so bad and if Gillard loved my party as much as I do she would have fought him.
We will have an ETS Abbott may well introduce it, after all the man has no intention of keeping his word.
That test demands Gillard go, a double election be crafted and let the cards fall as they will.

TBC I wish I didn't agree with you, but I do.

All a tax does is raise revenue - we need a set of procedures to transition from fossil fuel dependency to sustainable energy. However, it goes further than that; the excessive packaging, overly processed food, private ownership of seeds and other food crops. Actual genuine choice for consumers so they can actually utilise the market place and a government to be the foundation for this.

And private companies that think long term rather than short term for the benefit of all - companies are only made up of people - don't they have children too?

Presumably Ammonite, some of the 'people in companies' do/might have children, but they are SO BUSY being CLEVER that they know nothing about them.

That's what boarding schools are for, parking yer kiddies out the way so you can get on with REAL LIFe, earning a crust.

And anyway, the structure of companies requires them to maximise profits, not take any care about their actuions beyond that.

Greed is the driver, ably backed up by Supidity and Shortsightedness.

And of course, all welded togther with 'religion' and 'consumerism'.