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The Forum > General Discussion > The UN and Assylum seekers .. religious compatability must figure.

The UN and Assylum seekers .. religious compatability must figure.

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Square pegs do NOT go into round holes..

you can try.. struggle.. push, shove, abuse, rant and rave till the cows come home, but without the liberal application of a plane, mashette, chisel or other tool a square peg will never go into a round hole.

Cultures are the same.

The Burmese Government is embarking on a program of ethno/religious cleansing of rather apocalyptic proportions.

TARGETS ?

-Christian Karen (approx 3 million)
-Muslim Rohingya's (unknown, 1-2 million)
-All other non Buddhists.

250,000 Rohingya Muslims fled to Bangladesh during this period.
10s of 1000s of Karens are in Thailand.

Some Rohingya Muslims had fled to Malaysia (Muslim country) but then came to Australia and are now on Nauru awaiting future developments.

Without providing masses of supporting evidence, I believe the UN has totally got it WRONG by basing resettlement policies on the incomplete and anthropologically WRONG idea of "Human Rights".

"Human Rights" should also include the following:

-The right to be resettled in countries most culturally compatable to the assylum seekers present culture.
-The right of States not to be burdened with people of a foreign culture or religion.

To neglect these fundamental and common sense principles is to sow seeds of future disharmony and strife. I regard it as totally IRResponsble to play fast and loose with issues of social structure through incompatable cultural intrusion and resettlement.

Christians ....to Christian countries.
Muslims........to Muslim countries.
Animists.......to any country.
Buddhists......to Buddhist countries.
Marxists.......to communist countries.

The squarest pegs are the Marxists, Christians and Muslims. Historic rivalry and animosity should automatically exclude each from ever being placed in the other's areas.
The Muslims along with Marxists have a philosophy of "State".
Buddhists.. don't have any philosophy of 'State' and are more compatable with any country.

...there will be an answer...let it be... let it be...but lets not 'imagine' that square pegs will ever go into round holes :)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 17 February 2007 8:23:01 AM
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You would have to be a no brainer to push "multiculture" on to a host people without debate yet that is what hs been done to Australians.
If we say NO we are racist, bigots,rednecks, yet it is our way of life that is put into doubt.
We have a certain fanatical religion here now who regard us as something 'the cat dragged in'.
'Asylum Seekers' has become a scam, unfortunately for us ,one that has worked remarkably well.
All 'asylum seekers' should be sent to the United Nations, let them tend to the wants of those who are hard to satisfy.
Posted by mickijo, Saturday, 17 February 2007 5:21:40 PM
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David, you claim Christians and Muslims are traditional rivals, while you support the allocation of asylum seekers based on religion, are you saying you are happy to accept Christian asylum seekers in their tens of thousands? I gather from reading your posts that you would like to choose and pick people based on their culture and religion, even when they are entirely legitimate, and like to play and encourage social class warfare.

And with you Christian heritage of loving and caring for others, does that extend only to your fellow Christians? And what exactly do you suggest we do to the non=Christians living in this country? Maybe we should sign treaties with say a Marxist country and organise a citizen exchange program based on religion??

Will like to hear from you.
Posted by Goku, Sunday, 18 February 2007 7:50:08 AM
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At such times the very left tell me I am racist, it is not true but it saves debate.
I grew up with people from all over the world ,worked with them loved and laughed with them without concern.
I am concerned about Muslim migration to Australia, from some cultures they are welcome from others parents import hatred and give it to children ,that hatred is against every thing I believe in.
Now or tomorrow we must confront this question, why import trouble?
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 18 February 2007 7:58:04 AM
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I always think that the standard should be set by the other. Would a strict Muslim Country allow Christians to come to their country and live as Christians, dress as Christians, think as Christians and behave as Christians with all their Western freedoms and ways.

The answer would be NO.

Well they cannot expect more than they are prepared to give. It has to do with respect.

It is a concern David, a huge concern and the fact that so many Australians think that because it doesn't affect them now that it isn't a concern just shows that our Education system is failing us and that history is not being understood as history always repeats itself and their are definate patterns.

I do believe that Muslims and Catholics and other religions should not be mixed unless the one mixing is totally prepared to live by the rules and regulations of the other.

Australia doesn't have any rules so its up for the taking.
Posted by Jolanda, Sunday, 18 February 2007 8:42:15 AM
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Damn good idea Goku, I'll second that one.
Posted by Hasbeen, Sunday, 18 February 2007 11:40:42 AM
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Jolanda, you present the rhetorical question:

>>I always think that the standard should be set by the other. Would a strict Muslim Country allow Christians to come to their country and live as Christians, dress as Christians, think as Christians and behave as Christians with all their Western freedoms and ways. The answer would be NO.<<

It would appear that you place absolutely no value on living in a free country. A country that - compared to some - is also generous, compassionate and caring. From the above statement it would appear that you think the approach of these comparatively oppressive regimes is the right one.

Do you really, deep down believe that? Would you not prefer to live in a country that treats its people humanely?

Every time I hear the argument "they are different to us. Keep them out at all costs or we are rooned" I ponder how uncharitable we have become.

It is classic dog-in-the-manger. Other countries' citizens would give their lives to enable their children to grow up in the freedom that we take for granted. But we treat it so lightly that we are prepared to sacrifice it simply because we despise and fear "otherness".

People as lucky as we are should surely demonstrate our belief in freedom by showing a little more Christian charity. Particularly to those who have chosen to come here because they value that freedom that you would so happily throw away.
Posted by Pericles, Sunday, 18 February 2007 1:22:10 PM
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How do I place no value in living in a free country?

How do I happily throw away freedom?

Is it because I believe that Muslims and Catholics struggle to get on, as do most other cultures, and that it would be best if the different cultures stayed in their own countries unless they were prepared to accept and respect the culture and values of those that they wish to join.

How did you possibly work out that I think that the approach of these comparatively oppressive regimes is the right one?

What I do think is that these oppressive regimes are given no reason to change as others respect them so much that they even go so far as to change their ways so as to accommodate them. It gives them power. They do this knowing they are oppressive regimes and I cant help but wonder whether it is because of fear as they know that these people will, unlike Australians, support each other.

For Western countries to allow Muslims to dictate the way things should be to me is not only stupid it is wrong and these countries are failing in their duty of care to its citizens.

If Muslims want to live in freedom in another Country and they know that the Country that they are going to live in is a Western one then they should be prepared to accept the Western ways and not try to change them so as to suit them. I am sure that good Muslims that are respectful of the beliefs and rights of others would agree.

If they dont like being offended well nor does anybody else.
Posted by Jolanda, Sunday, 18 February 2007 1:45:58 PM
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Dear Goku
thanx for highlighting an aspect of this question for further discussion.

Non Christians.... are basically compatable to a secular society, which is what we have. Our Christian responsibility is to evangelise all. So, simply "not" being Christian is not a threat in itself. The more important thing is 'in the absence of Christianity, what is at the centre of the persons outlook'? if it includes a religious faith which would seek to build a religious 'State' of a contrary faith, then I politely suggest this is dangerous. To be impolite, I suggest it is suicidal.

The goal of my thread is not to suggest non Christians should leave or be dealt with in any way other than they are now, we don't have and must never have a Christian Theocracy at the State level.

Marxists.. I would interrogate them, determine how seriously they believe in the violent overthrow of the Borgoise state and if they convince me that is their goal, I would lock them up and throw away the key. Nauru sounds good.

Christian Assylum Seekers.

I would be most happy to extend a warm welcome to any number of them, SUBJECT to our environmental infrastructure and sustainability criteria.
At the same time, I would pay attention to their ethnicity and ensure that a mix of ethnicities were accepted such that no ONE ethnicity obtained an over-representation, which could produce some undesirable results.
Acceptance would also depend on them agreeing to some strict re-settlement rules which prevent racial ghettos.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 18 February 2007 2:25:36 PM
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CHRISTIAN ETHICS.
46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

AUSTRALIA IS NOT A THEOCRACY.
The injunction above, is to Christians, on how to treat non Christians. It is not a treatise on the mechanics of State.
Loving, caring, showing compassion for people is a Christian duty.
It is part of our calling. It is not the calling of a Government, if you believe it is, then you are advocating Christian Theocracy.

It is a responsibility of the State (of any flavor) to ensure social harmony and peace. This suggests an awareness of both history and common sense.

The STATE maintains peace and order. THAT is the framework desired by God. Within that framework, Christian ethics can work freely.

THIS THREAD.. is not an expression of "Christian Theocracy", but of sound governance for any time and any place.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 18 February 2007 2:37:25 PM
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Too late! No so-called asylum seekers should have been allowed into Australia in the first place. Most of the migrants brought into the country since the 1950's should not have been brought here.

However, there is no point in continuing to argue the toss about such matters as the damage has been done, and Australia is heading for Third World status as a result.

Trying to raise other countries to our standards has become a joke, as Australia gets closer to THEIR standards ever day. Few people give a toss about their own country these days simply because they have not been listened to or consulted on anything by either the Coalition or Labor.

It's every man for himself now. Get used to it!
Posted by Leigh, Sunday, 18 February 2007 3:21:00 PM
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Pericles (Ah someone closer to my era!)

You say:
“We are should …(show) a little more Christian charity. Particularly to those who have chosen to come here BECAUSE THEY VALUE THAT FREEDOM.”

But “THERE’S THE RUB”

As we, & much of western Europe is finding out “refugees” from many Muslim countries are not so much seeking “freedom”( i.e. liberal democratic value systems) as a better economic situation (i.e. a higher position on the pecking order).

We saw that a number of the London Bombers were living off social welfare/community charity while conspiring to destroy the hand that fed them.While other refugees -not involved with the bombing - gave them sanctuary after the event -when they were on the run.

And we saw similar things in Australia with a well know Muslim leader gaining residency ( after much pleading by his community) then seemingly planning & inciting others in terror attacks against Australia

And while you’ll no doubt argue that these examples are the antics of a minority.I’d suggest that even if you cared to visit the “moderates” you’d find their views/values about womens rights, religious tolerance & terrorism are far from liberal-democratic- freedom-loving.
Posted by Horus, Sunday, 18 February 2007 3:47:27 PM
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I will never agree with the thought migration should have stopped before 1950, but I understand why that poster thinks that way.
However some want to claim white migration was invasion it would have taken place sometime.
Iraq and the whole middle east, our lifestyle and incomes are going to make us a home for more migration than any want.
And very soon we shall see it happen it is unstoppable.
Our leaders both sides of the house appear unconcerned but it is about to happen.
Religion only gets a mention because some Muslims and some passages in their holly book , declare we must be killed.
And ruled under a holly law we do not follow.
Man made God I can live with that but it would be a better world without any of our many invented Gods.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 18 February 2007 4:28:20 PM
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Dear Leigh... had I not seen our Immig dept renamed "and Citizenship" I'd be tempted to agree with you that its too late.

But if I felt that way I'd do nothing but wallow in self indulgence mate.. well.. the Christian kind :) "The world is going to hell, but we're alright mate" kind of thing.

No..I believe God would have us take up the challenge and do all we can to re-shape our society in a more harmonious way. I cannot give you a chapter and verse for that, but it sure is the tone of the whole Bible.

I should have made the title "Ideological Compatability" rather than just religious, because Marxists are atheists, and I do mean them in the scheme of things.

Left and Right are fine.. its when people go outside the generally known limits of those areas that we have trouble. Left of Marx or Right of Bill Oreilly :) and a storm is brewing.

Cheers all.. anyone in Melbourne ? I'm SWELTERING !
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 18 February 2007 6:37:12 PM
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As usual Leigh’s posting does not make any sense, and the comments are nothing more than propaganda. Can you not recognize that fact that immigrants since the 1950s have contributed to the current success of this country? A lot of the so called asylum seekers who you despise are valuable assets we have today. I do not know what your background is but I can certainly tell you that a lot of non-white citizens of this country have worked very hard, normally much harder than anyone else, at work and at studies.

You further wrongfully claim that people these days do not care about their country….the answer/fact is that they do care, it is simply because they do not agree with you and your out-of-touch philosophy on race-based religion-based approach to society building. You might think all other cultures are Third World, but that is only your opinion established in front of your computer behind iron curtains. Open the door and you might see something different. Particularly young people do not share your views.

And to David, at least you are not a hypocrite, although I still disagree with a Christian-centred view of our society. How many people actually go to church these days? But I respect your knowledge and conviction.

David you also claimed “The more important thing is 'in the absence of Christianity, what is at the centre of the persons outlook'?” It could be many things other than religion, it could be money, materialism, power etc, a lot of these being practiced by so-called Christians I know.
Posted by Goku, Sunday, 18 February 2007 9:35:56 PM
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I think the refugee tribunal here in Australia does a fine job. It certainly is not that free and easy. Anyone wanting refugee status must prove that if they return to the place of origin, their life will be in fatal danger.

Immigration process is another protocol.

I was in a situation recently defending a few cases of gay former Islamics from strict religious Islamic countries. In both cases, their lives were at danger. I think I mentioned this in previous postings. In both cases, they condemned Islam, and wanted nothing to do with them. In both cases, they were victims of terrorists who have their own death squads.

There is no love lost between them and the religion that raised them in their country of origin, as the religion that raised them wants them dead.

They are graduates at universities, speak 4 languages, are gentlement, are gentle and philosophical, and want to be real Australians. They want to support this country that accepted them in, and were close to tears when Australia allowed them refugee status on compassionate grounds recognising the persecution.

They want to be Australians as soon as possible, fully integrating.

As far as I know, they are both working full time as well as volunteer with non-religious charities.

Some of the refugees from Islamic countries are affraid of the Islamic immigrants as they are here for different reasons in a conflict of interest. If Islamic communities always want debates and agreements on their terms, then refugees that fear them are less safe.
Posted by saintfletcher, Sunday, 18 February 2007 11:35:56 PM
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Islamics that is those who are terrorist, clearly not all, and those who challenge western values should not be in this country or the west.
A truth many do not wish to face is religion is subject to use by bigots and face it we are about to be forced to fight a war forced on us by bigots.
I do not want to hear of Christian bigotry a thousand years ago, its todays bigotry that threatens us all.
I do not question multi culture ism just watch all our freedoms being taken every day by big challenge it if you wish that we must fight a war one day.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 19 February 2007 7:35:06 AM
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Goku
my meaning about what is in the heart of people does not mean the normal individual values that most of us have, I'm referring there to particular ideologies which have codified objectives.

Islam, Marxism, and National Socialism would be the 3 most dangerous.

Fletch.. ur a lawyer ? I didn't realize. (but now that I know.. a POX on you :) kidding.)

SIGNATORY STATUS ON UN CONVENTIONS My most immediate political goal in this area would be to re-visit our signatory status on various conventions. We should either withdraw totally or add proviso's and exceptions which place our national security and social cohesian as our foremost priority.

In other words.. we should NEVER accept a person as an assylum seeker simply because they are 'human' but we also need to consider what 'type' of human.. are they white, do they have blue eyes..blonde hair.. OK.. just checking if ur awake there :) seriously now.. on the ideological level.. its most important that they don't hold views which might be expressed in anti social, seditious, culturally threatening or disruptive ways.

The issue of cultural threat is very real, and is as important as national security. This of course leads to the obvious question about what our culture is. Well.. thats a job for Anthropologists to write a few papers on, but it certainly can be done.
Not only should we do some cultural navel gazing, once done, we should evaluate the results in terms of usefulness and bring the best of our culture into the field of education for social re-inforcement. That way we won't be white anted culturally over time.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 19 February 2007 8:30:35 AM
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BD,

The change of departmental name is just the Coalition having 5 bob each way. If you consider that I’m wallowing in self-indulgence, so be it, but I would label the big immigrationists and multiculturalists as the real over the top self-indulgers.

I respect you Christian views, but I do not share them.

Goku,

If my comments do “not make sense”, how can you comment on them?

Why would I be spreading propaganda? I don’t represent anyone but myself.

Migrants since the 1950’s have not contributed anything more than the rest of us have, and they have done pretty well for themselves, too. Australia would have been just the same without them – just on a smaller and more environmentally sound basis. Populating a country like Australia over the scientifically agreed figure of 13 million has been shear madness.

I would be interested to know what information you have that allows you to declare my philosophy out of date, and my contention that Australians don’t give a stuff is wrong.

Incidentally, nothing I have said is based on a “race-based religion-based approach to society building”, as you blithely declare. Nor do I: “….. think all other cultures are Third World.” And, my opinions are not “ established in front of (my) computer behind iron curtains.”

I could say the same thing about you, but I don’t because I know nothing about you. How do you know so much about me?

With some reservations, I agree with your comment on young people not agreeing with me. But even there, look how most young people change their minds as they mature. The latest example is Peter Garrett; for all his anti-American bases ranting in the past, how now says he supports the establishment of a new base in WA “one hundred percent” (his words).

Young people never agree with older generations – until it is too late. And, young people are the ones who will suffer for their beliefs or lack of interest. It won’t be cynical old buggers like me who are affected by the immigration and over-population mania.
Posted by Leigh, Monday, 19 February 2007 9:30:20 AM
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Jolanda, you ask:

>>How do I place no value in living in a free country?
How do I happily throw away freedom?
Is it because I believe that Muslims and Catholics struggle to get on, as do most other cultures, and that it would be best if the different cultures stayed in their own countries unless they were prepared to accept and respect the culture and values of those that they wish to join.
How did you possibly work out that I think that the approach of these comparatively oppressive regimes is the right one?<<

Your middle paragraph is presumably an apology, because what you said before - and what I was referring to - was:

>>I always think that the standard should be set by the other. Would a strict Muslim Country allow Christians to come to their country and live as Christians, dress as Christians, think as Christians and behave as Christians with all their Western freedoms and ways. The answer would be NO.<<

You appeared to be proposing - and please correct me if I am wrong - that because "strict Muslim" countries operate this way, we should too.

The sad fact is, you can't have one without the other. Either you are a free country, with respect for the different views of your citizens on subjects as wide-ranging as employment legislation and abortion, or you are in a form of dictatorship where you are told what to do and to think.

The idea that you can somehow mould the rest of the citizens of this country into the image of yourself, or Boaz, or belly, simply by deciding unilaterally what you see as "right thinking" is pretty close to unacceptable totalitarianism.

But as you observe, it is exactly what those "strict Muslim" countries do.

Which is exactly why I asked the question in the first place: is this what you have in mind for Australia?
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 19 February 2007 9:32:28 AM
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Leigh,
I disagree with you about the contribution of migrants since 1950.

The post war migrants have contributed much and I think things started to go wrong in the 70s, when MC was introduced. We now have a lot of immigrants, and their offspring, that have no regard or resapect for our laws or social standards. I believe Fellow Human who informed me that this group is mainly Arabic Muslims.

I do not think it is too late for us to remedy the situation here, but looking at some European countries and England it would be too late. If we realize that Lebonanese Muslims will never integrate and stop allowing them in would help a lot and maybe in a few more generations the ones that are here now will change their attitudes.

I do not expect much from migrants. 1. They discard any hatreds their culture carries toward others 2. They obey and respect our laws and social standards. i.e.Some may have to alter their attitudes toward women.

It is dissappointing that we welcome migrants with open arms to share our good fortune and country and some respond with arrogance and distain.

Do not give up as we have made inroads. Both Labor and Liberal have now dumped MC and after the election I expect to see the dismantling of the MC industry. You must remember that those in Canberra are a bit thick and slow on the uptake.
Posted by Banjo, Monday, 19 February 2007 10:23:48 AM
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lol @ David, I might as well be a lawyer, I support enough people when they are facing tribunal. Of course I would not assist just anyone, I have to see the evidence myself first, and the good thing about vulunteering is that I can decline if I don't believe them.

Please don't say pox on me. I'm surrounded by people with pox.

I would do the same for a Christian missionary applying for refugee status from an Islamic country. So far, they haven’t needed my help as their Churches are in abundance and a whole infrastructure surrounds them in support. It helps if they can prove that they are employable or useful to the Australian community and not be on welfare benefits.

>>>To all of you, don't miss Saturday's SMH for the DVD from the Sony Tropfest which I saw last night. There is a funny short film about an Australian nationalist in his hoon car, on his way to the Cronulla riots, with his cricket bat, and an Islam guy on his way there too. They end up on the beach alone and get talking. I won't spoil the story or the end. I think you might like it.

There is another funny one called "road rage" also commenting on Australian mateship.

I always hold that to find Australian culture, you can't find it in the flag or the anthem, you will have a better indication in our arts, our theatre, film, music, and even in the spirit in sport.

The good things about the culture here, once you identify unique character here, I think you can see there are things worth preserving.

As to how this relates to immigration, well, saturation is the last thing we need. I don't think this is a racist statement.

There is also the question of the sustainable environment...

Religion? The rocks, the gum trees, the sunburnt country, well, I guess that is our cathedral. What do we believe? What ever it is, it has to be harmonic with everyone else.
Posted by saintfletcher, Monday, 19 February 2007 10:44:04 AM
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Banjo,

You disagree that migrants have not contributed any more than the rest of us.

How have they contributed? What permanent changes for the good have they made to the way things were already being done in their particular fields?

Many migrants have done very well in Australia, but they have done very well for themselves – not anything I can thing of that has benefited Australia as a whole, apart for more income tax and votes for the politicians, and huge increases in wealth for a minority in the big end of town.

Multiculturalists use the same tack to justify unnecessary immigration of different cultures. But, they are never able to give examples and instances of immigrants doing anything more than the host population. Many of them do less.

I don’t think the Lebanese who are the current bane of our society will ever change. There have been Lebanese people here for many generations. No “Lebanese trouble” was around before those of the Muslim persuasion started arriving in large numbers.

I have “given up”, as you put it, because history repeats itself because we never learn. The ethnic mix all over the world is now almost identical to that which existed in European and the Balkans prior to World War I. Worse, even, because people who once did not emigrate are now able to do so, and their ways are so different that World War III is no longer all that unlikely.

I admire your faith, but I can only repeat my view of the superficial political changes made on MC by politicians who are interested only in the next election. Calling them “thick” is very polite and understated of you.

I hope that I am wrong, but I fear that I am right.
Posted by Leigh, Monday, 19 February 2007 11:04:14 AM
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This discussion is redundant.
That Multiculturism failed is now history.
The only way forward is how to return those of the muslim faith to their
countries of origin or the countries of their faith and yet deal
fairly with them.
We have to say to them, we made a mistake, we thought it would work out
but it has not and for both our sakes you should go.
We need to do this before the numbers get impossible, although I am sure
some will say it is impossible now.

If you want proof of the problem look at the Lebonese civil war when
the religiously divided city shelled each other until the whole city
was destroyed.
When will artillory duels between Lakemba and Eastwood occur ?
Fanciful, yes pehaps but what would have happened if heavy arms were
available in Lakemba at the time of Cronulla ?
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 19 February 2007 11:52:24 AM
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BOAZ_david:
CONGRATULATIONS your comments have hit the right spot I fully agree with your assessment.

MUSLIM REFUGEES TO GO TO MUSLIM COUNTRIES.

I think if this happens a lot of the problems faced in Western Europe would not have happened and most of the problems of social isolation in Lebanese Muslims in Australia could have been avoided. If they need hold their allegiance to religion above that to their country they would only be compatible to a Muslim country.
Posted by SILLE, Monday, 19 February 2007 1:13:42 PM
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Pericles. What I was proposing is that one cannot expect more in return than one is prepared to give.
Posted by Jolanda, Monday, 19 February 2007 3:46:25 PM
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Leigh’s fanciful assessment of “World War III” and Bazz’s guerilla warfare between Eastwood and Lakemba is just completely out of control. This might really happen with combative and aggressive ideologies these two have. So ASIO beware.

Leigh, you further said “Migrants since the 1950’s have not contributed anything more than the rest of us have, and they have done pretty well for themselves, too. Australia would have been just the same without them ...scientifically agreed figure of 13 million ...”

This really needs to be analysed and rebuked. First how did you come up with 1950s as a cut-off point to decide who has contributed and who hasn’t. Sounds completely arbitrary to me. Is it because you came to this country in 1949 and hence earn a right to make absurd claims? I noticed that another poster (whose ideas I do not entirely agree with), Rainier, is aboriginal, he might have a few things to say to you.

You said migrants “have done pretty well for themselves”, suggesting that they have been selfish and do not contribute to the wider society. You need to expand your targeted group to include non-migrants. Who isn’t here to earn a living for themselves. Do you work full time at charity?? I will take back my comments if you do. Now at least you accept that migrants are as contributory as everyone else in society, what basis/right do you have to ask your migrant neighbour to leave the country more that vacating yourself?

Your magic number of “13 million” people in Australia. Where did you get this figure? And how is it more scientific than any other randomly generated figure? So the current population of 20 mil is not sustainable? Write a letter to the Liberal Party and they might tell you something interesting.

Lastly with your claim young people do not know much and not mature enough, this really is a little patronizing. An older peson’s voice is as loud as a younger person’s,there is not necessarily a better or worst one. Older people might have experience, but younger people have ideas.
Posted by Goku, Monday, 19 February 2007 7:11:12 PM
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Goku,

You seem determined to win an argument that doesn't exist. I've made my opinion clear, so have you. You are the one who apparently isn't keen on seeing opinions that conflict with your own. I merely responded to you. I'm not going to do that ad infinitum.

Let's leave it at that, shall we? There is no competition as to who is right or wrong here. We've both had our say, and I not going to change my opinion any more than you are.

Further back and forth is not going change anything.

Regards.
Posted by Leigh, Monday, 19 February 2007 7:47:31 PM
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Leigh, dont write off all young people, although you may be right about the majority. I am classified as gen Y, but still tend to lean towards a number of your argument, especially when it comes to sustainability and the need to control population levels. There are some of us (mostly out bush from what I can gather) that still have a bit of commonsense. :)

Its really a difficult problem. I dont think anyone wants to turn away someone who's life is in danger if they return to their homeland, but at the same time, BD's got a point (though I hate to encourage him). We can promote tolerance all we want, but at the end of the day, humans tend to have a long collective memory for old grievances (we seem to be pretty good at forgetting the lessons that come from these though). Put two people that have opposing views together, and sooner or later you will have a cat-fight. Whilst they may be able to tolerate each other in good times, when stress hits, people tend to lash out (or implode)and basic idealogical differences are an easy target. Does this make us good people? Perhaps not, but we need to wake up and deal with what is, rather than what we would like in an ideal world.
Posted by Country Gal, Monday, 19 February 2007 8:24:39 PM
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Country Gal,

Wat's the difference between the ideological clash between my sensible opinion (I believe so)on this toic and Leigh's professed commonsense vs the hyped-up clash between the Muslim and Christian faith? Or any another points of differences in opinion? they are all just different views on things. However per BD's or Leigh's argument and logic, one side of the debate on this topic needs to fall as it would be too dangerous to have such divergent opinions.

Leigh I am not here determined to win (I am not Muslim for your information) and your opinion is heard loud and clear. And I disagree with you. so let's rest the case as you wish.
Posted by Goku, Monday, 19 February 2007 9:41:50 PM
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Leigh,
Looks like I owe you an apology as i did not pay enough attention to what you actually said. Migrants have contributed to our economy and society, but I could not say anymore than anyone else.

I agree that many migrants have benefitted along with us and good luck to them. Business skills and hard work generally does pay dividens.

Before and after 1950 migrants contributed in many ways, for example:- Skills needed to set up new industries. I recall that at that time we were starting new industries and "self sufficiency for Australia" was the catchwords and the objective. Skills and labour was required for the mammoth Snowy River Scheme. Tough conditions!
The most noticable contribution has been to the catering industry. Before 1950 the choice in a cafe was just about limited to steak and eggs or a mixed grill. Now we get such a wide variety of menus.
The wine industry is another that has vastly improved.

I cannot say if these events would have occured without migration, as there is no way of measuring that, just opinions.

It all changed to the worse with MC and the removal of industry protection in the 70s. The hair brained concept of globalism came into being. I do not recall problems with Lebs prior to Fraser allowing that large number of Leb muslims in. Until then the Lebs were mostly Christian with christian values.

I really believe that both Liberal and Labor have now seen the error of MC, but they are not saying too much now simply to appease the hardliners in their parties. Whoever wins next will aompletly abolish MC.

Now we need to work on reducing migration and refugees to a more realistic level, that we can sustain.
Posted by Banjo, Monday, 19 February 2007 10:56:04 PM
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Each day we get a day closer to the total failure of American policy in the middle east.
That day will see uncontrolled immigration from there to all parts of the world.
Doubt it? wait and see.
I am not anti American just anti the whole Bush administration.
We now need to understand are we well served by caring more for some refugees than they will ever care for us? our culture? our rights in our own country?
Be honest more share my concerns than not, more soon will.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 20 February 2007 5:23:48 AM
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COUNTRY GAL... hey.. *pout*.. you don't want to encourage me ? :) grrr... I'll survive, but nothing wrong with a bit of a boost now and then.. need "something" to counter the irritating attacks of CJ and Pericles :)

BELLY
you have a VERY important point there mate.. If the US policy in Iraq flops and there is a worse bloodbath than now.. all those who cooperated with the US and its allies may well be looking for a new home. NOT HERE ! thanx.. no way .. we went there to help them gain democracy and independance from a tyrant, and to guarantee oil supply I presume.. but that does not mean we have to open our doors to those who we helped.. note.. we helped.. not they helped us... we gave it our best shot..and if it fails.. they have to pick up the ball and run with it.
They could solve their problem over night, but while we remain there they wont because of our pulling the 'human rights' strings... and holding them back from the only solution they all know will work.

The tribal nature of Iraq and the history of conflict between Shia, Sunni, Arab and Kurd will mean a heck of a brawl out of which ONE will emerge victorious (at a hell of a cost) and/or.. Iran will gain a new colony. But open and multi party multi racial democracy ? nah.. aint gonna happen.....ever.

ONE mob will be top dog and it will viciously BITE any young or smaller dog which tries to take that position.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 20 February 2007 8:59:52 AM
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CG,

I must say that your posts have never betrayed your Y generation status. You are obviously not typical of the younger generation, and I am very glad of it. I don't really classify all younger people as write offs. But, like everyone else I can only call it as I see it. Perhaps I was the same at a similar age. I must confess that I was on the left of centre until I was about 30, when I learned the error of my ways.

Banjo,

I think that you and I are closer than you think on these matters.
Posted by Leigh, Tuesday, 20 February 2007 10:10:12 AM
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To an extent, I suppose you should consider cultural clashes. I can deal with DB to a certain extent, though I think he goes a little too far. Leigh goes there, and way beyond.

I still think the issue is pretty trivial compared to say, drugs on the streets, but hey. I suppose it's topical right now.

Though DB - you're getting part of the philosophy of Marxism wrong.

Marx's theory was based on a basic model of economics - people weren't people, they were essentially a number or commodity: labour.

In this numbers theory, capitalism is based on competition, so in an effort to undercut competitors, the wage of the working man would always be eroded, until such point as he was desperate enough to rebel, overthrow the ruling classes, and establish a new form of government run by the workers.

Now Marx's theory was wrong on two counts: one, government exists, and it regulates minimum wage conditions. (Though free marketeers continue to try and erode this).
Two: the lot of the average worker hasn't eroded - living standards have increased. A lot of this is due to growth, which is at odds with sustainability, and ultimately changing this system without running into Marx's conundrum I think is the greatest challenge facing humanity.

Anyhow, I say all this because you're indicating that Marx had a desire to overthrow the goverment. That's wrong. In his view, it was inevitable, and would happen regardless. He was content to wait.

It was when it was taken and used as an excuse to install communism without the requisite situation, which quite frankly doesn't exist, that it caused problems.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Thursday, 22 February 2007 2:41:59 PM
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Hi TRTL yes.. I'm by no means an IMAM on the intricacy's of Marxist philosophy, but I know a dead horse when I see one.
The problem with an 'inevitability' schema is that it's not much of a hop to 'lets help it along'.

Many of the advances in working conditions you refer to were achieved by a 'marxist' approach of seeking to gain political advantage and power by promising economically unsustainable wage outcomes to workers using the language of class war, wealth redistribution, and worker rule.

I've not seen private company's trying to reduce wages (they still need a workforce) but to reduce costs and improve efficiencies. The tendency is more to 'clamp' wages to the same level. This is where the government should enforce a taking into consideration of inflation of course.

The problem of course is that the economic dynamic which enabled private corporations to bend in the direction of higher wages, was destroyed by those very outcomes. Now, we have to compete with China and Indonesia etc, but in many areas simply cannot, so we die inside as all hope fades and morphs into an angry despair.

That despair is what Marxism then seeks to capitalize on to create or forment the 'revolution' aspect of the historical dialectic.

The degree of "inevitability" verses "active promotion of" violent revolution is entirely academic and I believe moot, because Marxism being an atheistic closed material system lacks any moral basis for restraint when the possibility of gaining power by fair means or foul is imminent.

In order to formulate a specific 'anti marxist' immigration or resettlement policy, one would need to tie down the chapter and verse aspects of their position on revolution much tighter than I have here.

Thanx for the insights.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 23 February 2007 5:58:07 AM
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Boaz has let the cat out of the bag. A person cannot be loyal or patriotic to a country if they believe in a creator because their loyalty is with their cult not their nation.
Australia is not a religious state but a secular state. I am Australian I am not Christian so therefore Australia is not a Christian country. My ancestors were Australian going back to the early 1800's they were not Christian either , Atheism gave those of my kin the independence the Australian character to face the harship of the land, the three wars the droughts and Bushfires. Australia is also a young nation forged out of the industrial revolution , out of science and rational thought. It is a nation of trouble shooters not a nation of superstition. Christianity is an alien cult which is a square peg in Australia. Christianity is a Greek new age cult risen from the Romanisation and pagan misunderstanding of Judeaism. Christianity does not belong in the antipodes. Boaz you certainly are a square peg stuck in a round hole being Christian in Australia. Why dont you lead by example and move to Jerusalem or the vatican?
Posted by West, Saturday, 24 February 2007 2:20:54 PM
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Dear Westy
your reasoning does not hold.. good try though :)

In a village in Malaysia, there is ONE family which declined to embrace Christ and the Christian values associated with Him. All the other families DID embrace Christ as Saviour. In that village there are probably 15 or more families. Would you refuse to call that village 'basically Christian' in values and culture just because of the one which preferred to stay with the old life ? Not at all.

Bear in mind, I don't consider Australia a "Christian" country. We have strong traditions connecting us with the Judao Christian history and spiritual traditions but given that to seek a Christian Theocratic Government would be counter to the Biblical teaching there is not much need to worry about the likes of me seeking to establish one.

Loyalty to pagan State is easy for Christians.. just read ROMANS 13:1-5 or so.. go on..have a read. The problem and crunch for us is ONLY when were are instructed to 'deny Christ'. Now.. that is not very likely also, but if it ever came to that, we would have to make a choice on the day and take what comes, but to deny Christ is not really an option we consider.
I doubt there will be laws enacted forcing us to bow down to idols or worship the prime minister.. nor forcing us to eat food offered to idols.. or to drink blood... so its not a cat out of a bag more like a flea :)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 24 February 2007 4:22:04 PM
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Bazz Muslims have been here not long after the first fleet. They came here to preach to the indigenous. If you apply this to Muslims then this being a free country will be a communist. What about the ones born hear what about aboriginals. Like serious I would like to see this problem resolved. If we hate them then send them back it will cause a bigger problem, it will just add fuel to the fire. Bazz my brother or sister hatred surrounds all. But most of all it is built from oppressing. Aussie is free not white but light if you hug your enemy you feel warmth. If you distance and move them away it becomes cold. Lets teach and learn lets fix it not break it, Muslims are more in the lime light because it sells. Lets work together and make our country stronger with love. My self have studied the Koran it has nothing of this evil committed by these criminals. And why do there leaders preach this because they are becoming blind by hatred, and anger there for cant see. This is probably why god is so forgiving, that man can be lost so easy, lets not let anger control us. (verse 62 buqqura) he that is Jewish and believes in mosses and what mosses believed in. He that is Christian and believes in Jesus and in what Jesus believes in. And he that is Moslem and believes in Mohammed and what Mohammed believes in. And the sebaian if all work righteous and do good are all promised to enter the gates of heaven. The meaning of Islam is peace. To control, you must divide and that’s what happens in Lebanon. They are told who must be president and priminister one can only be by religion. A Muslim cant be president and christen cant be priminister, semi communist. We are free to chose lets not look for a solution that will create the problem we are fearing.
Muslims believe strongly in Christ and Merry. Peace be with you and may god bless you and your family.
Posted by KOOREE, Sunday, 25 February 2007 10:14:54 PM
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Boaz , Jesus did not do his duty at Galipoli infact Jesus is not even an Australian Citizen , he never was, so by your own reckoning why are you not loyal to your country by worshipping a foreigner?

But then by your ideolgy Jesus was Jewish so he shouldnt be allowed in anyway.

Christians are famously the quintessential hypocrites but man you are dragging it up onto a whole new level.
Posted by West, Sunday, 25 February 2007 10:53:19 PM
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Religion certainly plays a role in some of the problems we are now facing. Although a lot of Australians declare themselves to be atheists or similar, our way of life has been and still is for a lot of people influenced by a Christian heritage, and it also seems to me that it is politically correct to be respectful of any other religion except Christianity. In fact in the politically correct madness, we have been told to stop our children singing Christmas Carols, putting up Christmas trees etc, in case we offend other religions. In my last job I was told not to wish anyone Merry Christmas. Thankfully common sense does seem to be making a belated return! I and many others do wish to continue celebrating Easter,and Christmas in a traditional manner.

When Lebanonese Christians arrived here, they did blend into the society. However since Muslim numbers have increased markedly, so has the chant of racist, bigot, allow us to do what we want....increased. The hostility expressed by some of these people make most Australians wonder why they wish to live here. Although many sincere women wear Muslim veils, I believe that for others, it has become a political statement as well.

I think the Government is showing a return to common sense by changing some requirements of entry for migrants. They need to be able to communicate in English to get jobs, they need to be accepting of the society here, as it is. We need to respect them, but they must also respect us, our society and our customs as well. Respect is a two way street.
Posted by amber300, Sunday, 25 February 2007 11:53:19 PM
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Dear Koree...I'm most concerned about you mate.. are you an Indigenous Aussie who has embraced Islam ?

Your comment that 'none of this (violence etc) is found in the Quran' which you mentioned you have studied, needs some reflection mate.. and some further input. I have to respectfully disagree about it containing a basis for violence and aggression, and much much more, related to Mohammed himself and his 'special treatment' from Allah in the area of sex.

I think most people who are fed 'Islam' today are only fed the sanitized sugar coated version. If you doubt me, have a look at the 'bitter' version, which is soundly based on the Quran and history... I'd value your comments on this by way of feedback. Can you show me for example based on the Quran and Hadith and life of mohammed that the claims made on this web site are 'incorrect' ?

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/alshifa/pt4ch1sec2.htm

"The proof of the necessity of killing anyone who
curses the Prophet or finds fault with him"
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 26 February 2007 7:07:15 AM
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Amber where specifically have 'we' been told not to sing xmas carols? It seems to me that Christians hide behind political correctness. Christianity cannot even face the fact that it is an immoral superstitious cult which is most active in the persecution of others. Christianity is as un-Australian than any other cult and is no less violent and hostile to non-cult people than Islam.

What people do in the privacy of their own home is their buisness , I dont agree that Muslims or Christians have a right to have their superstition affect other people.

Shutting people out of this country on the basis of their culture is just the core Christian value of persecution being excercised. The truth is Christianity is as just a threat to civilised society as Islam is. Neither could prove their claims of the existence of their gods in court. Both are peddling deception.

The answer is not to ban people of non-christian superstitions, of particular skin colour, of types of accents. The answer is not building prison camps so god can smite the enemies of the bretheren through the bretheren.

The answer is to ban the worship of all gods including Christian deities in public. Ban overtly religious people from political office. Ban the advertising and peddling of religion.

The zealots will find somewhere more compatible to live. Australians can get on with their lives without the constant threat of violence and persecution stemming from those who cannot handle reality with a paranoid and hysterical delusion of the end of times and those moved to madness with the paranoid feeling a ghoul god is stalking them , ever present, even speaking to them through signs.

Go to any church and watch any clergyman give a sermon it is like watching a snake charmer.

A Christian certainly is not in a position to judge a Moslem. As Jesus plagerised from Greek philosophers 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'. Both superstitions are not only with sin , they have become sin.
Posted by West, Monday, 26 February 2007 10:29:55 AM
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Hi West
I’m sad to think you think so badly about Christians in general. Certainly fundamentalism in any religion including Christianity can be dangerous. Although there are bad apples in every bunch, most Christians I know are ordinary people doing their best, which makes them good people, in my humble opinion.

Your suggestion of 'banning all gods’ has already been done. It is ""called Communism.

Banning Christmas Carols has been done at some preschools in different States over the past 5 years, but now being thankfully …undone.

From Herald Sun 21 Nov 2005

Premier Steve Bracks yesterday gave his official encouragement for nativity scenes, carols and other Christian traditions. Jingle Bells can ring in classrooms around the state again after several schools banned nativity scenes and carol singing last year for fear of offending non-Christian children. "Those who don't wish to participate don't have to, and those who wish to celebrate in their own way can do so."

From today’s news.com.au (not specific to Christmas Carols, but Christmas and problems of religious differences in general)
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21113262-5007146,00.html
Nation at risk from tyranny of tolerance

AUSTRALIA'S long-term difficulty in dealing with the now politically defunct noun "multiculturalism" is not unique to this country. It is not even unique to this time......(I have omitted a lot of irrelevant paragraphs)

How many of you noticed that those Christmas cards you have no doubt recycled by now actually said Happy Holidays, and not the religiously correct Merry Christmas? Were the Christmas lights down in your neighbourhood this year?

It wasn't so long ago that Sydney Lord Mayor Clover Moore thought it was a good idea to cancel Christmas decorations in the city so - and how many times are we hearing this? - as not to offend Muslims. (end of quote...)

I wish you well
Posted by amber300, Monday, 26 February 2007 1:26:14 PM
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Dear Boaz
It states in the koran that god challenges man kind that if they could write verses like witch he has, and says to man kind you cant so don’t even try. what I am trying to get at is that hadith is written by men to control man. How come Sunni, shia, alowi, habashi, and so on, all think each other are wrong. when really they should be studying the koran not what some person has narrated. this is how the false leaders that are driven by anger (the number 1 enemy to all human kind) control the blind and stupid..
When you speak about Mohammed and his special treatment from god in the areas of sex I don’t quite understand what you mean. In the koran it speaks of equality between man and women. You must understand. In history the Arabs use to bury there daughters alive and Mohammed put a stop to it. To day Islam is not being followed the way it should.
Did you know that in war a Muslim is not allowed to kill a working man, women or children. Did you know that it is murder to kill in war if it is out of anger. Even if your enemy sword is risen against you and you killing him in self defence that bit of anger becomes murder. I belive it is what you read and how you interpret it god gives light to whom he pleases.
It is said in Islamic history that the prophet had give up all his wealth and lived out cast, stoned and spat at by the people of Mecca. He never waged war only in self defence of his people.
What would you call a person that believes in all three religions jew, christian and islam.
p.s. i was born a muslim, my perants and grand perants are muslims. I am not coating any thing with sugar, i am saying what i belive and what i have been taught i thank god i was born and raised aussie muslim. peace be to you and your family.
Posted by KOOREE, Monday, 26 February 2007 10:23:04 PM
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Nice post Kooree, good to see some sense injected into the thread.

But wait a few minutes and you will find yourself being lectured by a non-Muslim about what you really, really believe.

And it won't be couched in the sober, reasonable tones that you used either.

I hope I'm wrong, of course.
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 26 February 2007 10:35:30 PM
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Looks like I was wrong.

Doesn't often happen, but it's great when it does.
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 7:23:34 AM
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Quite so, Pericles. Perhaps the simple honesty of Kooree's perspective as an actual Aussie Muslim is too much for even Boazy's paranoid racist fantasies.

P.S. Amber300: "How many of you noticed that those Christmas cards you have no doubt recycled by now actually said Happy Holidays, and not the religiously correct Merry Christmas? Were the Christmas lights down in your neighbourhood this year?"

Actually, I sold literally thousands of Xmas cards last year, and not one of them said "Happy Holidays". The Xmas lights competition was as enthusiastic as ever, although I think that people are starting to look for more sustainable alternatives to decorating their houses with energy-guzzling incandescent bulbs.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 7:34:54 AM
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amber300 I am not suggesting communism at all. Religion clearly is as destructive as drug addiction. Recreational drugs are banned and in the same way religion should be banned. If we analyse it there is no difference between the self delusion of believing in a god and the delusion drugs create. Most likely both are releasing the same chemicals from the brain.

Back to communism , yes Christianity is also a political totalitarian movement seeking to control peoples lives. We have witnessed this in Christian social terrorism lately with the banning of gay marriage , the attempt to treat women as farm animals by taking away the choice over their own bodies by banning abortion, by atempting to exploit children to serve the Christian agenda by trying to brainwash them into believing in unproven gods and intelligent design so they can be controlled.

I would argue Christians and any other god belief can be cured of the affliction of their beliefs and would like to see rehabilitation as part of any banning of religion. Having said that if people want to get high on Jesus as long as they dont take it out into public and allow it affect other people thats ok.
Posted by West, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 10:41:06 AM
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Hi West
I think we're getting off track, but anyway.

Yes, I know you were not suggesting Communism. I was putting it forward as an ideology that objects to religion, as an example of how wonderful that made peoples’s lives …I don’t think.

I’m probably much older than most posters and was brought up Catholic. I found the ceremonies and hymns, beautiful, meaningful and enjoyed feeling part of a tradition that went back a long way. There were things I disagreed with, but since the 1970s, a lot of church teachings are up to a person’s own individual conscience, rather than being told what to do, as we were previously.

Unfortunately as an adult, I found I lost my belief in a God, especially a good God, and have brought up my children, like a lot of Australians, without any religion. Sadly, I now regret that, as it does help to give some meaning to our complex lives. I feel I have denied them a lot of my own heritage. There are times in our lives when we do need to believe in something spiritual . They might have also not been able to believe in God, but at least they would have had the opportunity.

Heaven only knows what…Christian social terrorism is….and I’m not asking for an explanation.

I would like to think that all Australians can live in peace together, and that includes people whose ideas, opinions are different from mine, but I also don’t wish to have others differences paraded in public, where I feel they offend me.

To each his own.
Posted by amber300, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 7:50:19 PM
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Pericles, I was waiting for it.
Peace be with you and your family.
Thank you
Posted by KOOREE, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 9:05:13 PM
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amber dont fret about your children , the most miserable person I know is a person who is obsessed with Jesus. Everything is a sign of foreboding and life is a test after test by his god. Everybody is a sinner in a sinful world. Physically he is draining away.

Forget god

We all want peace, well at least most of us do. Peace is what we should all be talking about and what we can all individually do to get along with everybody else. I have found god creates division, I recognise the reason is because when somebody talks about god they are actually talking about their own ego and preferences. Some people can handle it for sure. Many cannot and they are the ones exploited by churches and demagogues. Thats why I see a need to ban religion. Im not talking about banning belief.
Posted by West, Thursday, 1 March 2007 12:02:45 AM
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