With the failure of even one Labor state government implementing the legislation required to implement Labor's Health policy, (not surprising since the 30% GST claw back seemed not to be fixed.) Julia Gillard has been forced to ditch the policy.

The new policy is simply to give the states $16.4 bn as long as they allow an additional couple of layers of Federal beaurocrasy and interference. (strange that she couldn't find this spare change lying around when Queensland needed it) Even now the states appear to be telling her that they will take the money, but she is to keep her fingers out of state health. Poor Julia can't even buy friends.

Shadow Minister,

Thanks for our regular update

From the negative

I bet if it was a Liberal government doing the same thing Shadow Minister would be starting a topic with the title:

"The most skillful compromise since the Lib/Nat merger"

I've read a few of his posts, they're all 100% bias. Impossible to debate with those types.

It is right of Shadow Minister to direct his bolts at perceived oversights and problems in policy and administration. That is exercising his freedom of speech, which is a very good. Too many voters are complacent.

It is quite OK for States and the federal government to disagree and it is fine for government to do a 'double take' - politics is the art of the possible. Policy amendment and reversions happen regardless of the flavour of the political pary in government because it is simply not possible to see and sort all problems from one view.

For myself, I can see distinct advantages in avoiding another overlap of bureaucracy at the federal level.

Of course he has the right to express an opinion. That's not the point.

He's not "directing his bolts at perceived oversights and problems in policy and administration". He's directing his bolts because the policy is from the Labor party.

As I said, if the same policy came from a Liberal federal government his topic would be:

"The most skillful compromise since the Lib/Nat merger".

Virtually all his posts are 100% bias.

Regards Shadow Minister and thanks, I am a bit concerned.
OF late hasbeen and I have agreed on a few subjects now you are reading my mind.
I intended to start a thread with this exact title.
My thread would have used this as evidence poor old Tony has lost the plot.
To my surprise Gillard actually did it!
Put a national health plan in place.
She lifted her game, looked good, and made the idiotic , primitive chantings of Abbott stand out.
Now it will not be good enough, Gillard is on the way out,Abbott too.
But this mornings polls speak for me,49% are unhappy with Tony 46% say he is ok.
Gillard leads a team further back than the Ambulance at a Saturday race meeting, yet, thanks to the very mad monk She is so far in front of the silly man he is chanting to himself.
DO YOU THINK this equals Singapore's surrender?
Come lets not be silly,but thank you for getting it rolling.

[Deleted for abuse.]

Julia Gillard has a great Victory? Other than agreeing to give the states $16.4bn the rest of the detail is fuzzy.

The states have signed a heads of agreement document (which basically means they will take the money and negotiate the details later). However, JG has already had to concede most of the control of the money to the states with the control of the central body shrinking significantly.

Courageous, Your posts closely resemble another poster (Jockey) who was booted off the site for flaming. If you restrict your posts to flaming and personal attacks you probably suffer the same fate.

While I admit being biased, nothing I post is without substance, and if you wish to debate you can do so on the issues. I notice that you appear to have nothing to contribute other than making wild and incorrect assumptions about what I would post.

It does not take much to see that there are those 100% in support of Labor in this thread and forum.

One country one hospital set of rules, instead of each state doing thing differently, logically good ain't it. Reductions in red tape to be sorted out. I reckon this has a far better outcome than states not agreeing. 50/50 means one rep from each state and one rep from govt; One decision suites all. I am lost to tie in with the title of this thread. Moderation needs to be looked into, so titles can reflect the debate. Two word Tony was mouthing off before the meeting was over, this man will go to any lengths to bring the country down. Surely his piers can see the incompetent nature of this man.

Shintaro:>>Shadow Minister,
Thanks for our regular update
From the negative<<

Shintaro thanks for your incipit quatrain style of criticism that obviously gives you some self satisfaction in being a rebel of few words, which supposedly carry worth beyond their brevity, you’re an auto erotic pleasure seeker and the style of expression you choose exhibits your child like mind. We are big people; you can add more if you wish, or will that take from the self mystique you seem to have marketed on this forum.

[Deleted for abuse.]

Do not change Shintaro ever.
Thanks indeed regards and flowers too to Sonofgloin and Shadow Minister for? highlighting the lost nature of conservative thought,while Abbott leads.
Singapore for the very young,after Japan launched its sneak attack starting ww2 in the Pacific Britain said Singapore was impregnable.
it fell.
Thousands of Australian New Zealand and British Empire troops marched it to captivity and horrible enslavement and death.
Even more natives of that area died too on such as the Burma railway.
Indeed as Tony said it happens and unfortunately will continue to, until Abbott is gone.
Now be fair, not not you SM but can any one think of reason to use such inflammatory words? to insult even the conservative leaders who supported this.
Such junk talk such confrontation is the reason Abbott is on his way out.
You can only win the fearful and uniformed with these tactics it insults our ability to think for our selves and is low politics.
Conservatives should be more concerned than I am, dislike of Abbott is propping up the ALP.

The IQ of a squirrel, that could be related to other people also.
This hospital deal looks great, a common pool of money for all states.
The money is distributed according to performance. That is a solution in progress. This prime minister has got what it takes to stitch up a deal. That will really be good for the state of vic;
There's a whisper around that Tony is hearing footsteps.

Belly,

Singapore was disaster because the British capitulated to an inferior Japanese expedition force that was in no position to take or hold Singapore, and thousands of men were captured before even seeing action.

My grandfather and great grandfather were amongst those. My GF survived Changi, and my GGF did not. The issue is not the suffering that followed, but the craven lack of spine that lead to it.

If Abbott is supposedly propping up the ALP, I guess you are saying that it has no real support what so ever. 32% what a joke.

Here's some suggestions regarding what Shadow Minister's topic title would have been if the Liberals were currently in power and used exactly the same health policy as Labor:

"The most skillful compromise since the Lib/Nat merger"

"Tony Abbott, a magnificent negotiator"

"Libs outfox Labor"

"What a great result for the health of our nation"

"Julia, why oh why oh why can't you come up with policy this good?".

Because Shadow Minister's political posts are always 100% slanted towards a particular political party, it makes it very difficult to take seriously anything he writes. If his political posts were maybe 90% pro Libs policy and 10% critical of Libs policy then there would be more credibility in the posts. Most people here are like this, why just look at belly's posts where he's often critical of Labor.

Writing as a blind supporter of one political party is not a way to gain credibility, not a way to be taken seriously.

All political parties have bad policies

Belly:>> Thanks indeed regards and flowers too to Sonofgloin and Shadow Minister for? highlighting the lost nature of conservative thought,while Abbott leads.<<

Belly I consider my political leanings as social democratic, definately not right wing.

First a correction, the pool of money appears not to be a common pool each states funds while kept by the federal government is said to be separate.
Shadow minister we disagree again, I need no reminding on those events,some of our troops arrived just in time to surrender.
I honor them all, your relatives and mine as well.
On this issue the fall and on Abbott's use of it.
I question your understanding, think about the words of Sir Robert Menzies, would he ever have used terms like that?
Howard I doubt would need such silliness to rebut the deal.
And let time judge us both, here is my opinion based on what I truly think.
Within 3 years even you will look back and wonder, how you never saw Abbott was/is ruining his own chances by such silliness.
By then, well before, both party's will have new leadership.
Abbott's term will be seen as lost opportunity's.
And without doubt, this man, who with out presenting his plans to Cabernet first threw the stupid idea of middle class riches for child birth on the table then ranted about a short term tax to fix crisis.
Who screams for balanced books but wants to put that off for yet another year.
Tony Abbott is no leader.
He bought about todays national health care problems with his actions and inactions, if in power he would change little.
I just do not think Tony Abbott believes these words he just wants to ferment trouble.
Gillard is being propped up by Abbott, only that.

Courageous,

For someone that has not even raised a single policy comment, you are completely lacking in credibility. I challenge you to actually put your opinions on the line. I don't think you have the b*lls to do so.

My credibility lies in accurately predicting which policies will be the focus points and electoral issues. I have pretty much nailed every one.

It is clear that the health "agreement" is far from final, and that there are some really serious issues in the "fine details" that can easily sink it. It was more important for Julia Gillard to get an agreement than to actually achieve progress. This is the mining tax all over again.

Have all the polls you want they will not make any cense at all.
This bloke is off his rocker. I have never seen any one so blatantly biased in my life. The sticking point WA is happy.
This SM bloke has got some sort of trouble with the electoral system.
I no people can be critical of their own political belief but after an election i tend to get behind the victor.
It is a life of misery denying any move, of your non chosen elect, makes.

I saw on IndoVision some time back an art collection held by a private collector that includes the done in real time painting of the Japs had made of the pom brass signing the terms and conditions of their surrender.

The associated accounts express the view that the Japs sh!t mixed them well and truly and had they not surrendered that they may well have been slaughtered.

I know not the truth of it personally so I read *Shadow's* comments with interest.

..

The medical industry is in need of serious reform which I can't currently see being delivered.

Other than those whose products and services are in hot international demand, or who otherwise are making a contribution of excellence to the field, all doctors should be put back on MediCare and both full access to medicine and the law too for that matter should be enshrined as Human Rights in a New Constitution.

..

In fact, I would nationalise with performance incentives all the necessities of life, medicine, medical insurance, law, housing, food, water, electricity, waste management and their supporting infrastructure. (not intended to be a complete list)

..

To illustrate the problem, I personally do not accept that the working people of this country, yes those who have their income regulated, should have to not only pay a grossly inflated price for the "privilege" of owning their own home, but then they pretty much have to pay for the monetary value of TWO MORE as fees etc to the bank.

..

The solution is simple. If you would prefer a different political and economic system, DO NOT vote for either the liberal or the labour party.

Each of us should make their own paths in life learn about the past present and future them selves.
Courageous say it as you wish.
But understand abuse is no weapon in trying to debate with SM.
I went down that path and lost, by my own actions.
You can if you wish,take a tea spoon and start to empty the Sydney harbor.
Or try to convince Shadow Minister his party is not always right mine always wrong.
ALP polling is bad, but right there in the middle of every poll is this fact Tony Abbott is behind Gillard, now she, is the reason we are doing so bad.
And we should be behind in all polls.
Any understanding person, can see it is the one tracked nature of Abbott/Shadow Minister that keeps Labor afloat.
I well come the defenders of truth here but ask that we do not drop to the level some live in.
One day,I hope we will find out who SM is.
PYNE? BISHOP? JOYCE?ABBOTT? BRONWYN BISHOP?
Singapore reading should include the life story of weary Dunlop,History of the second world war , the section about Japan and the pacific war.
Every young Australian would be stunned to know these things and after reading have a sound basis for understanding why I find Mr Abbott's quote so offensive.

Dream on,

Just to close out the Singapore issue, that Singapore was lost cause is not in dispute, and if when the main body of the Japanese force arrived in a couple of weeks, then the battle would have been a needless waste.

However, the small Japanese expeditionary force had neither the size nor equipment to take the city. In 2 weeks the majority of the civilians could have been evacuated and thousands saved with little loss of life.

The health reform that the government is hailing as the biggest reform in decades is not much more than a thought bubble, or concept. The devil is in the detail.

As two of our states are in the hands of strong conservative leaders.
And another will be after next month.
And two others are likely to follow.
May I ask this question.
Why did those two except this deal, they held the power all of it.
One alone stood against deal one, it was him that bought about changes.
If this deal is a back down so tragic it reminds some of a defeat such as Singapore's are the conservative leaders useless?
I am disappointed that true debate is being over taken by wild silly claims without basis.
Shadow Minister this is your thread, your title, how can you ask that we leave the Singapore issue out?

Belly, rather than say "NO" it is often better from one's point of view, to say yes, in principal, then kick like hell about the details. Your lot have been using it to make some Libs look silly for years.

The answer is still no, but the other party has to explain why the whole thing failed.

It would appear that some of the coalition pollies have actually stood back & thought about Labor tactics, long enough to learn a few lessons.

If they are smart enough to do this more often, life may become a bit more difficult for some of your lot.

Should be fun to watch.

Belly, the health agreement that only a year ago Labor hailed as the greatest reform in health care since medicare is dead. The new agreement gives the states $16.4bn and lots more in the future with very little change to the way they work.

What we have is a signed heads of agreement. A heads of agreement is a broad brush outline of what is intended and sets a framework for the future negotiations. There is no contractual obligations on any side, nor is there anything specific from which legislation can be drawn.

It is at best a starting point for future negotiations, yet Labor is trumpeting it as a break through.

If you disagree with me, please tell me what is actually finalised and is to be implemented.

[Deleted for abuse.]

Shadow Minister:

The following article may help clarify things for you:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/02/14/3137745.htm
"New Agreement a healthy way to run the system," by
Alan Kohler, Monday, Feb. 14, 2011.

"The health deal agreed yesterday is almost entirely good and should be used as a template for everything else states do, including education and public transport."

Courageous, or should I call you Jockey,

Seeing you were banned several times before permanently under different names, for posting just the same abuse, there is no reason to expect more than the mindless jabbering you posted previously.

Not once have you tried to debate me. I don't think you even understand the issue, as you have not tried to contribute.

Lexi,

The article again indicates the general intent. There is no detail on maintaining rural facilities, or any index for efficiency here or in different states, or even checks and balances.

What is omitted is not just fine print.

Shadow Minister:

Nothing is omitted - re-read the way things are going to work in the site I provided - it's easy enough to understand for most people, apart from obviously certain others - who can't seem to find anything positive in anything that any Government proposes. These people are setting a bad example for those that are trying to achieve something whereby they inturn can become obstructive. As a result - little will be achieved. I find it truly puzzling why some people prefer inaction to trying something new. But then again, I suppose it's always been the ethos for some.

Hasbeen Shadow Minister it is my truly held view I am far from the only one who finds your comments extreme.
Now if courageous is another poster, let me say this, unaware of any of the deleted comments I have not seen anything offensive or ranting in the ones that remain.
Take up your cudgels gentle men but wise words can convince me I am wrong, that is not what you post.
At this stage truly, you could know only very little about this scheme other than it has agreement at this stage.
Hasbeen, your reference to waking up to Labors tactics is brilliant, in its ability to ignore it is your side that is using fixed tactics.
Gillard went well on this one, but is going to be replaced, as is Abbott.
As bad as Labor has been is, we still have a chance to win an election, in destroying not building you blokes are helping us.
Please continue.
IF courageous is another, as you say, falling for joining in to slanging matches is to surrender rebut but do not be angered by such inability to see reality.
Lexi hope you are well a lot of us are concerned.

Belly,

I'm fine. I'm simply taking a much needed 2 week leave - (tomorrow), and coming back on the 25th Feb. But Thanks for your concern dear friend. I've replied to the Shadow Minister - and as I stated - I can't understand why there is such a negative reaction to facts that are in the public domain. It doesn't take much to goggle the information, read it, and understand what's happening. Unless there is a concerted effort to undermine anything that our current Government is trying to achieve in the interests of the taxpayers.

Editorial in a very much conservative paper the Sydney Telegraph is worth a read.
Along with its flag ship the Australian it appears some of the more out there actions of this shadow Cabernet are not finding support.
I stand by my claims this threads title, and a great deal more like it is counter productive.
I however highlight real danger.
The Australian, not normally a not conservative read, has a poll on those funeral yesterday, sadly many thousands more have voted against the transport of relatives to Sydney,we are poorer for the depths we are falling.

Courageous:

Of course your posts don`t indicate

political bias?...You need to stand

in front of a mirror!

How clear is the vision of some?
Without looking for the glasses many can see the biases wrongs and sins of others.
Yet not with any aid to sight can those same people crackup/cuphandel see their own.
most HUMILIATING SURRENDER since SINGAPORE really? true?

Biased?. It's just plain guff expressed in emotive, negative and inflammatory language. Straight out of the Tony Abbotts book, entitled, "How to render your self irrelevant without really trying".

I see the title to this thread as offensive and disrespectful.
Moderators need to take more care.

It's what Abbott said 579. http://www.news.com.au/national/pm-proposes-50-50-hospital-deal/story-e6frfkw9-1226004349589.

Seems everyone is getting so precious that if something could hurt someone's feelings then we can't even mention it, even if it is being widely discussed elsewhere in Australia.

It's getting very difficult for me as moderator to work out what people are going to find offensive.

juliaGillardhas failed I see no need to answer you.
GY sorry but while I am alive I want the right to rebut such child like statements as this threads title.
It may be hard to except but I truly believe the man is lead in the saddle bags of conservatives.
I do not however, no one should, ask a moderator to step in on so very little evidence.
In fact those unable to rebut without calling dad for help are in the wrong game.
I find a great deal of what this man, his followers in and out of Parliament say unwise and of no real benefit to his side this mornings back down is a case in point.
Gillard is a failure but not on this subject the Australians editorial this morning is well worth a read.
32% of us give first preference to Labor, do we count?
I would hold no different views if some fool on my side used terms as silly as this.
Any one who understands politics knows Tony is in big trouble in his own team, control that mouth Tony!

Not one of us can claim to be a saint, certainly not me.
But every now and again a new poster pops up, seemingly intent on trouble and insults.
Sorry but just lately we have had a few arrivals who like fire flys shine brightly then go.
I am not sure we are better for the visit.
Australian Politics is becoming like a show ground sprooker,on every side.

Belly: The one thing that we can all look forward to

on this Forum, is the certainty that regardless of the

subject of the particular thread, you Belly, will always

be there with your apparent dyslexic rantings and

ravings, eager to condemn or criticize your fellow

participants, with all the candour and wit one would

expect from a seemingly broken-down, ex-Trade Union

representative, eager to win new friends and allies

in your never-ending tirade against commonsense and

decency.

This is the reason that a lot of posters retire from

the various Threads,...not because they have nothing

more to say upon the subject, but simply the sheer

frustration created by persons like yourself, who

seem to consider themselves indispensible to the

Forums continuation, and this preoccupation you

have with having the last say on every subject

that you bite into!

Its ok old fella, no not patronizing ,not looking for the high ground I do forgive you.
Your posts, for about two years have been, well a little off center, remember that one about pet crocs?
Will not continue on that subject,except your views and will not further worry you ,but one thing, look into your mirror old fella.
This getting old bloke, me has never had a day pass that I never tried to improve my understanding, in my grave will lay with me, my brain.
I do you know, wish you well, understand you are probably much better than that post, and while learning of another side to you take no offense please lets not refer to one another here again.

As is your normal behavior crack up you did not get the point,a few of us are insulted by a new poster and such has been said in threads other than this.
I was not referring to you like a great deal here I mostly skip over your posts.
I have however lost respect and ask only that we do not talk again.