Evangelicals

Do murder, as I have shown

Al ignores the facts

Dear davidf,

You wrote;

“Can we recognise the problems that we all have as humans, recognise our common humanity and work together to solve those problems?”

Then...

“Hegel's freedom was humanity working together as an organic whole in agreement on its eventual goal.” which you saw as a recipe for tyranny.

Are you not starting to argue with yourself?

You wrote; “Hegel was influenced by Joachim of Fiore who saw society in three stages the stage of the father: Edenic peace, the stage of the son: human conflict, and the stage of the Holy Ghost: the millennium.”

And it had me thinking of Nietzsche's quote from 'Beyond Good and Evil', “FOR CHRISTANITY IS PLATONISM FOR THE “PEOPLE””, (his capitals).

You appear to deem Christianity such a dangerous idea that only the likes of Spong and Schlink, because they have managed to rise above their 'bigotry and bias', can be entrusted to embrace it. However in running this line are you not showing a degree of 'bigotry and bias' yourself? It is like saying only the Zionists can be trusted with the dangerous ideas espoused by Marx since they utilized them in the Kibbutz without the need to employ a Gulag.

You say “Holocaust was partially a consequence of hundreds of years of Christian resentment at Jews wanting to continue to be Jews.”

Surely one of the greatest proponents of the us/them idea are the Jewish people. It has meant their survival through the millennia but also it attracted the superstition, bigotry and resentment of those communities in which they gathered.

Although from my understanding this morning prayer is no longer said by most Jewish people nowadays even by the orthodox (although still be the Heridi), it once was.

"Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a Gentile."
"Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a slave."
“Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a woman."

Very we/they.

Dostoyevsky picks at the scabs on my soul.

Dear csteele,

I consider the Chosen People idea one of the nastiest ideas around. The idea that God has chosen a particular people is to me nonsense. The idea that God is a real estate dealer who also has assigned a particular piece of land to a particular people is also ugly nonsense.

I wrote in my initial post: "Unfortunately people may defend against a we/they idea by creating another we/they idea. A common response for those characterised as bad guys is to claim they really are good guys and their denigrators are really the bad guys."

Persecuted groups can adopt the attitudes of their persecutors and turn them around to fit themselves. Some Christians think that God has now chosen them, and the old covenant no longer exists. Some of the nasty ideas in Christianity come from Judaism.

The Chosen People idea is an idea common to all or most tribes people. Their word for themselves generally means ‘the people.’ That implies others are non-people. Religion preserves the ideas of the past and gives archaic nonsense holiness.

Thanks for reading my writings and contrasting my statement with Hegel’s statement.

Hegel’s ideal was the Prussian state, and his idea of people working together was that they should accept the dictates of the state and do their best to carry it out without question.

My ideal is the democratic state where people can dissent from the purposes of the state.

Democratic states allow conscientious objection. Even though the country is at war individuals may decide they don’t want to participate. There are provisions so they don’t have to.

I talked to an Iraqi who was studying at the University of Queensland. He could not believe me when I told him the British, Australian and US armies were made of volunteers. In his view you only go in the army if the government forces you to, and then you have no option.

We can work for common goals and still allow democratic freedoms.

Marxism is only one brand of socialism. I am writing an essay on that subject.

Dear David F

You said:

a) AGIR can keep on with his silly mumbojumbo.

b) Maybe nobody else will pay attention to it. Maybe they will.

and that dear David..is the essense of it all. "mayby yes..maybe no"

In a free society this is a wonderful freedom to have. ( to speak and to choose)
I find the suggestion that I (by implication and association) 'may murder' those who reject the message of repentance and faith to be irresponsible, nasty and Christphobic.

But (Lexi and Poirot and Shintaro) I certainly recognize the difference between the ideal and the practical. But let's keep 'exceptions' in that arena and not speak of them as if they were approaching a norm.

I'm not denying that some whacky individuals have done awful things while claiming to be evangelical.

What I'm taking strong exception to is David's suggestion that there is a link between evangelical Christianity and the propensity to MURDER those who don't accept the message. He linked it to our faith.
The faith is totally contrary to such ideas, but David simply does not recognize or want to recognize this.

Imagine for a moment that the young bloke or woman I spoke to about Christ this week had read David's post on OLO the night before.... *think*.. suddenly here is this big old stranger telling them about 'Christ'.......Sometimes David's passions get the better of him I'm afraid.

But there is hope :) He is reading a great evangelical book called "The Brothers Karamazov"..but let's not share that secret..I'd rather he read it than hurling it in a corner.

AGIR,

Just to set the record straight. Your criticism for picking on American extremists rather than respectable mainstreamers (like archbishops) sounds like a fair criticism - except that in early 21st century America, what "seems" extreme to the outside world is actually mainstream. Richard Dawkins in the television documentary,"Root of All Evil," interviewed among others Pastor Ted Haggard of Colorado Springs. He was the one who most appalled the British television audience. Far from being extreme in George Bush's America, "Pastor Ted," was President of the thirty-million strong National Association of Evangelicals, and he claimed to be favoured with a telephone consultation with then President Bush every Monday.
Another of Dawkins television interviewees was Pastor Keenan Roberts, from the same state of Colorado as Pastor Ted. Pastor Roberts particular brand of nuttiness took the form of what he called "Hell Houses." A "Hell House," was a place where children were brought, by their parents or their Christian schools, to be scared witless over what might happen to them after they die. As Dawkins said, "This shocked me somewhat, and I asked him whether it would worry him if a twelve-year old child had nightmares after one of his performances..."
He replied, "I would rather for them to understand that Hell is a place that they absolutely do not want to go..."

As Dawkins says, "We cannot write-off Pastor Roberts as an extremist wingnut. Like Ted Haggard, he is mainstream in today's America."

Like Beck is mainstream

These people are hate preachers

Who excuse murder