You make a compelling case Yabby, I must admit.

I think my main concern however is the proliferation of excessive behaviour by Gov't on our behalf and no doubt Belly,
"we have to accept as truth, that in every community there are extremists".

Given this inevitable fact, I understand that we have to protect ourselves from such people.

As was witnessed by the shootings occurring in the U.S. this week, the lunatic fringe does exist, the question for me is,
"how much do we let the LF effect, (or influence) the rest of us and our thinking?.

Was the emotive language and symbolism of the Tea Party movement contributory
to the outcome in this case ?. Have they gone too far, are we going too far ?. Is the desensitising process healthy?. Are we still initiating our own worst case outcomes for future generations to deal with, without learning or taking in to account the lessons learn't from the past ?.

These are the bigger questions !.

Yabbys story is one of ten thousand.
We now know in Pakistan this week a parliamentarian was murdered, by his body guard.
We know why, he supported change in a law calling for death for blasphemy!
Further we saw crowds gather to protest the arrest of the murderer.
We IGNORE, oh yes some do, all this pent up hatred all the zeal calling for western deaths.
The ignorance to others rights,to any rules of war not stated in their holy book.
And put the boot in to America for developing a weapon that can remove some without Americans being exposed to gutless hidden bombs.
We ignore, at our peril.

Dear Yabby,

Once you throw the rules out the window then the only way to judge actions is whether they are justified.

I want you to tell me the difference between the drone strike on the funeral I posted details of and the suicide bombing at the mosque you linked in your earlier thread.

Why is one deemed justifiable and the other the work of terrorists (I consider them both the work of terrorists because I look a little further than justification)?

Next you may disagree with my analysis of the reasons but you can not say the dramatic escalation of the for suicide bombings and drone strikes numbers occurred in anything but hand in hand.

I do agree with your comment that “The rot set in when the Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan.” but it is well recognised it was because the Americans used the Mudjahideen to push out the Russians but then washed their hands of this poor country when the deed was done. Many well respected commentators acknowledge this. A large number are now with the Taliban.

You say “Violence and terrorism in Pakistan have grown as Islamic extremism in Pakistan has grown. Drones or no drones.” but to sustain this argument you would have to say that extremism has increased 10 fold in five short years.

Most estimates put the number of civilians to 'terrorists' suspects killed in drone strikes at between 10:1 to 50:1. Is that acceptable in your opinion?

Dear Belly,

I accept rather than respect the right of others to their thoughts when they are made public in a place like this forum. To truly respect it as a right would mean no effort should be made to disavow them of a particular viewpoint no matter how distasteful it might be.

I find “Drones? lets have many more.” distasteful and I accept it as your opinion but don't ask me to respect it nor a right to it, because I most certainly don't.

Lets see - “gutless hidden bombs” compared to missiles from drones piloted remotely from thousands of miles away – tell me the difference in their cowardness quota?

Earlier I posted the story of a "September 8, 2008 missile attack on a North Waziristan village. The drones fired at least five missiles at a religious school founded by Jalaluddin Haqqani—a Taliban leader (who was formerly financed by the CIA) and the official target of the U.S. attack. At least 17 people were killed with some estimates reaching as high as 23. Of those killed, at least eight were children. Haqqani's wife, sister, and sister-in-law were all killed as well.”

Why are you so afraid of this man that you condone the bombing of his house and the deaths of members of his family? What threat was he to you personally? During the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan would you have applauded his efforts during that war? Isn't he still on a mission to rid his country of invaders? Why do you want to dance on his grave?

When you say “I am not for a second going to let the enemy of truth POLITICAL CORRECTNESS control my views.” can you understand that you are being the most 'politically' correct a person possibly could be. You have taken what the politicians have framed to us about the war in Afghanistan and become one of their most uncritical and ardent cheer leaders.

Dear thinker2,

Well the objectivity I promised didn't last long. Sorry.

*I want you to tell me the difference between the drone strike on the funeral I posted details of*

Csteele, the problem is that you are setting yourself up as judge
and jury here. Frankly neither of us know enough about the details
of this case, to have a well informed opinion. We just hear
rumours and speculation and often jump to false conclusions.

It is not in the interests of America or the CIA, to go killing
innocent civilians for no good reason. But in times of warfare,
judgements have to be made and sometimes they are not perfect.
That is the tragedy of war.

Alot of these decisions are lines in the sand. If Hitler could have
been taken out by a drone, with 300 people killed, would you accept
that or not? What about Pol Pot?

Violent Islam has grown in Pakistan, because it was adopted by the
Taliban, learned from the Qutb school, as followed by bin Laden,
Zawahiri and co, when they moved to Afghanistan, then Pakistan.

The Taliban themselves, originated in Afghan refugee camps, situated
in Pakistan. Before the Taliban, there was no Islamic ideology in
the area, preaching long beards, no music, no pictures, no girls
schools and all the other draconian dogma that goes along with
what is being preached and enforced today. Violent Islam is
part of what was introduced by the Arabs. That is why violence
is increasing. Zawahiri is at the forefront of preaching it.

If you are interested what they actually believe, ie an Islamic
takeover of the world, read Milestones by Sayd Qutb. Its online
for free. That might open your eyes as to what drives these people.

Dear Yabby,

You wrote "Csteele, the problem is that you are setting yourself up as judge and jury here. Frankly neither of us know enough about the details of this case, to have a well informed opinion. We just hear rumours and speculation and often jump to false conclusions."

Oh come on. Obfuscation is not becoming.

We do know there was a CIA drone strike on a funeral with hundreds of mourners at it and around 70 to 80 were killed. We also know the strikes at the mosques killed 70 odd so we have a similar 'body count'.

You had no problems condemning the mosque attacks because of the civilian deaths, why so shy now. Can't we just argue the merits based on the information in the links we both provided and take the reports as a given.

If you can not mount a decent argument about the justifications or lack of for either attack then can't we assume if are you so critical of one but so uncritical of the second it is because your viewpoint is jaundiced?