Dear Rob
if those things start to happen, and someone like yourself has read the good word on the subject... and if he failed to repent, knowing full well also that the intention of these partial punishments were to bring about a realization of our sinful condition, then it boggles the mind.. truly. If you know it is God who is acting, do you mean to tell me you will sit there and stubbornly yell at Him "Sorry God, you don't fit MY image of how you should be, so get lost"... cripes mate.. don't let me be near you if you ever say that kind of thing.

I don't completely understand the specific intent of each bit of imagery, but I do believe it had meaning for the Church and world at the time, and it also has meaning for the future. So, the task of interpreting that, is not easy. Many differing views exist and I won't say any one of them is all correct or incorrect. Perhaps the best thing is to look at the end of it all.. a new heaven and a new earth..

I can understand your personal revulsion to the idea of 'Torture' in Revelation, but as I said.. imagery... literal ? or symbolic ? This is not at all like the example of Mohammed slicing and dicing the camel thieves.. that was straight forward 'He did it'.

PC and MC are dangerous when they force us to recognize and respect difference which can be destructive to our freedom. There is no threat to your immediate freedom in Revelation, and it does not in the slightest advocate any Christian hurting or harming anyone else- k That is an important distinction between Christianity and Islam or Communism.

Up until today, that moron Abu Izzadeen was ranting his way around London.. looking for 3 more wives, condemning the British Gov'tm Berating the Home Secretary in public and Praising the homicide bombers of 7/7 and finally he has been arrested.
HOORAY.. thats my point, they (UK Authorities) are seeing past the idiocy of PC and MC.

no wonder many don't want to join OLO discussions..

From Wikipedia's entry on multiculturalism:

"In 1999, the legal philosopher Paul Cliteur attacked multiculturalism in his book 'The Philosophy of Human Rights'[9] Cliteur rejects all political correctness on the issue: western culture, the Rechtsstaat (rule of law), and human rights are superior to non-western culture and values. They are the product of the Enlightenment: Cliteur sees non-western cultures not as different, but as backward. He sees multiculturalism primarily as an unacceptable ideology of cultural relativism, which would lead to acceptance of barbaric practices, including those brought to the Western World by immigrants. Cliteur lists infanticide, torture, slavery, oppression of women, homophobia, racism, anti-Semitism, gangs, female circumcision, discrimination by immigrants, suttee, and the death penalty. Cliteur compares multiculturalism to the moral acceptance of Auschwitz, Stalin, Pol Pot and the Ku Klux Klan."

Furthermore:

"Another more recent and conservative criticism, based largely upon the Nordic and Canadian experience, is presented by the administrative scientist Gunnar K. A. Njalsson, who views multiculturalism as a utopian ideology with a simplistic and overly optimistic view of human nature, the same weakness he attributes to communism, anarchism, and many strains of liberalism. According to Njalsson, multiculturalism is particular to a western urban environment and cannot survive as an ideology outside it. Some variants of multiculturalism, he believes, may equip non-egalitarian cultural groups with power and influence. This, in turn, may alter the value system of the larger society. This realist criticism of multiculturalism maintains that in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the US, multiculturalism may aggravate a situation where old-stock families are not permitted by the countries of their forebearers to consider themselves English, French, Scandinavian, etc., while newer arrivals can claim two or more national identities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism#Reaction_against_multiculturalism_in_Europe

"This is not at all like the example of Mohammed slicing and dicing the camel thieves.. that was straight forward 'He did it'"

Ok BD you got me there, I accept that much of the the bible is fiction and that the contents of Relevaltion will never happen.

It's still a rather sick piece of fiction to keep around though and some of your co-believers seem to actually take that stuff seriously.

If I believed that stuff was real I am uncertain if I'd have the moral courage to stand against it (I hope I would). People have paid up to protection rackets throughout history. If that stuff was not just fiction what is being operated s a protection racket.

A bully with a massive need to be worshiped to makes all the rules and then announces that because others don't follow the rules well enough they will be punished unless they say how much they love him. Your gods mummy or daddy should have sent him to the naughty corner years ago.

It's not just the torture, the rest of it is morally repulsive as well.

R0bert

Dear Ranier
You can present a contrary view, most welcome, but do like Oligarch did, and support any contention with some evidence.

if you look at Oligarchs thoughtful and well researched post, you will realize that there are those who wish to contribute.. well done Oligarch !.. and the little gem in one of those quotes bears repeating and underlining.

[Gunnar K. A. Njalsson, who views multiculturalism as a utopian ideology with a simplistic and overly optimistic view of human nature, the same weakness he attributes to communism, anarchism, and many strains of liberalism]

That.. is like the KEY TO THE CITY for this discussion. It summarizes all I would say on the issue, and I'm glad it has been said by someone else as well.

Utopian..idealistic...optimistic view of human nature.

Rob.. I totally can see your view there mate, the imagery is horrific to our peaceful sensibilities, and certainly would not score well on the "human rights" scale. Perhaps we are trying to understand 1st century imagery through 21st century eyes ? Perhaps this is like Jesus saying "I have not come to bring peace but a sword" ?

BD,

Your are right, as usual. MC and PC are virulent cancers.

However, there is no point arguing with fools, unless you are just doing it for the sport:)

I just hope I'm around long enough to see their reactions when the awful truth and consequences of these filthy, suicidal policies hit home. They've seen nothing yet!