Yes Grateful, I agree with this part

*While it is fair to argue that alcohol does not cause anything*

If a person becomes a rapist when intoxicated you can be reasonably confident about two things: they already had underlying sexually aggressive tendencies, and, that they are already physically fit enough to be a rapist whilst being intoxicated. Rape of any kind is an act of abusive aggression, sexual bullying towards another. A reasonable person would not do this no matter how much alcohol they'd consumed - unless they had some kind of chemical imbalance or an underlying personality disorder. It's very common for people to be less inhibited when they are intoxicated, and more willing to engage in sexual encounters they may decide against when sober, but there's a line to this Grateful. A drunk is not a rapist unless they already were a rapist to start with.

You have a point about the name-calling Grateful so my apologies for this. I do think that your words were manipulative but I can also see that from your perspective this was not your intention.

*An addict does not want to be an addict. They crave for a drink now, but they do not want to continue drinking in the future. Addicts do not want to be addicts. They know that it is in their long run interests not to drink.*

Not so sure about this one Grateful. Addicts also know that other people want them to 'willingly' stop their addiction. Knowing something and wanting that same something are two different things. A person doesn't choose something they don't want in the first place. They may already know where it leads but it won't stop them from finding a way of getting it if they want it. No amount of telling a person what they should or should not have is really going to change what they desire, and what they desire is what they need (good or bad) so they will usually find a way of getting it. We all get what we need in some way or another.

Yes, a society living under Sharia (or Methodist) prohibitions would undoubtedly suffer less from the problems that a small minority of people have with alcohol and gambling.

But who'd want to live there?

You're still not listening, grateful.

>>If the majority of Australians were to forgo alcohol and gambling (and do so WILLINGLY thereby eliminating the prospect of a black economy emerging) then society would be better off. I think most of us agree with this statement.<<

On the contrary, I think that the evidence of this thread weighs heavily against that conclusion.

The reality is - as dotto is trying so hard to point out to you - that addiction is the problem. Alcohol and gambling are simply the vehicles through which that addiction manifests itself.

So the "willing" abstainers are most likely to be those whose drinking and gambling is not a problem to society.

Hence, even if they all willingly abstained tomorrow, society would still have the exact same problem from the unwilling (the addicts), and will not be better off at all.

>>By the way, the description of me as dishonest and manipulative is offensive and really has no justification<<

The reason your opening post was "manipulative" (which, by the way, does not by itself indicate dishonesty) was that it was specifically phrased to reach only one conclusion.

It subsequently became clear that you needed this conclusion in order to point out that voluntary abstinence was a core aspect of the Muslim way of life.

Which is indistinguishable from the "bait and switch" tactics used elsewhere on this forum by religionists of other persuasions. Now you are aware of it, you won't be surprised in future when it is pointed out to you.

>>So, at least from a Muslim perspective, religion is an anecdote for addiction: drawing closer to our Creator is seen to be in our long-term interest.<<

I'm delighted to hear that you have found a way to resist temptation.

I understand that Alcoholics Anonymous and Gamblers Anonymous also have a fine track record.

“If Australians willingly gave up alcohol (and other drugs) and gambling then society as a whole, along with these individuals, would be better off.”

It would seem that throughout history most cultures have had their own intoxicants.

If they gave up drugs of their own volition, yes, undoubtedly everyone would be better off, except the marketers of such products. But society won’t give it up. An interesting statistic from the period of Prohibition in America during the 1930’s, was that the incidence of alcoholism doubled during that period…when it was illegal to make it, sell it and consume it, addiction to it doubled!! So the key is that it must be given up, not taken away.

Gambling is different. We all gamble everyday in life. I know you’re referring to poker machines, horse racing, casino’s, lottery tickets etc, but they are merely microcosmic examples of some of the small risks we take in life, but in this instance, with money, which is not too different from what a businessman does in risking capital in a venture. Admittedly, one would assume that a business venture is far more calculated than a bet, but since 60% of all new businesses fail in the first 3 years, it’s not a lot different, conceptually, since 60% of people going into business know as much as a punter…they think it’s easy, and all they have to do is open their doors for business, and they will make money. That’s rare, and more often than not, luck. But they risk their savings, or mortgage their house to do it. It’s a gamble, and it’s a gamble to make money, but hopefully, on the longer term, not the short term like “gambling”.

Crossing the road is a gamble, applying for a job is a gamble, starting a venture is a gamble, placing blind trust in the cars we drive is a gamble. All of them have elements of risk, but we would say that on most occasions that it is a relatively well calculated risk.

TBC...

So again, we come back to just those that either abuse that gambling, risk-taking and betting. Most of us don’t have a “problem” with alcohol or gambling, but may enjoy the occasional glass with dinner and friends, and an occasional Lotto ticket when it’s over $10M in prize-money. What’s the harm? The harm is only for those that have little to no self control and abuse these things. It would be like banning sugar to stop obesity.

“While there may be some benefits to be derived from gambling and alcohol, these benefits are outweighed be the harm.”

That’s individual, and statistically, a small minority. Better that we instead of marketing these things as being “cool” and glorifying them culturally, that we educate and warn.

“Are we as a society addicted to alcohol and gambling?”

We’re addicted to materialism, what is “trendy”, “cool” and “sexy”, and our marketers give us what we want. We, as a society, follow what our favourite celebrities do, and they are mostly dysfunctional. We then wonder why we and our kids have problems when we attempt to emulate dysfunctional people. We’re addicted to screens and monitors and the ever pervasive swill that oozes from them, and have the temerity to call it “information”. We’re addicted to the trappings of Capitalism…you can get anything you want (at Alice’s Restaurant).

*An addict does not want to be an addict*

Well not quite Grateful, for of course self delusion is one of
those great human foibles. The stuff I've read on dealing
with addictions, starts with trying to get people to accept
that they have an addictive problem in the first place.
Some do, but a great many are in denial.

Addictions nearly all relate back to brain circuitry,
dopamine and the reward/pleasure centres of the brain.

Religion works on a similar level. Hope and fear are
the drivers. Many people become anxious over uncertainty.
Religion gives you perceived certainty, it brings the
homeostasis of your brain chemistry back into balance.

In other words, religion rewards you with feelgood brain chemistry,
as addictive substances reward addicts.

The very thought of understanding/coping in a world
without that religious certainty, sends many believers
into a frantic panic. I've had some admit to me that
if they did not believe one religion, it would be another
one. They need that religious certainty to cope with life.
Real addicts.