Yabby,
Your last post must be a joke! Your insistance that i am irrational riven with anxiety and seeking certainty ignores everything i have said.

Muslms constantly invite others to look at the qur'aan in the same way that people have done with the Bible. I invited you to do so. for example, if Ali Dashti is correct and the Qur'aan merely regurgitates Jewish and Christian scriptures then one should be able to find the same inconsistencies and historical inaccuracies with the Qur'aan as are found in the Bible. Certainly there a millions motivated to do so, so such a conclusive proof against Islam shouldn't be hard to find.

I have also laid bare in other posts what for me would undermine the rational grounds for my belief: evidence that the Prophet was a liar/deluded or that the Quraan has been corrupted. Invariable atheists dodge these challenges.

In other words i do not run away inquiries that could undermine the rational grounds for me maintaining my beliefs.

On the other hand describing me as anxious and in need of certainty obviously "does it for you": you have no need to challenge your own beliefs and you can take pride your own "valour".

No matter how little knowledge you have about my religion, you will come back to the same point: you're belief has no scientific or rational grounds and is a form of escapism. This approach is exactly what you are decrying. Saying the Qur'aan was "cobbled together by Muhammad", despite having never seriously inquired into the Qur'aan (have you ever read it or just listened to it recited?)and dismissing the events that lead to people of Medina giving up alcohol obviously "does it for you": gives you your certainty that you haven't made the wrong choice. It leads to a supremicist and prejudiced mentality. You dare not say: "I don't know" or "I may be wrong"

*You dare not say: "I don't know" or "I may be wrong"*

Ah Grateful, but I say that all the time. I am an agnostic, not
an atheist. If there is an Almighty out there who created
everything, he is free to write his rules on the face of the moon,
for all of us to see. So far he has never bothered.

I did indeed take some time to understand your religion, as I have
a sense of curiosity. That is why I read "Twenty Three Years".
Last night I read some of the Amazon reader comments about the book
and they largely concurred with what I had found. Dashti wrote
with candour and openness and objectivity, without all the
proselytising that we normally hear from you religious folks.
He also gave me a historical perspective of the whole story, which
matters. Mohammed was clearly a smart and interesting fellow,
despite his lack of education. Dashti certainly praises his many
good points. I can recommend the book to any Westerners who want
to increase their understanding of Islam, why it came about and
what the Koran is all about.

*Your insistance that i am irrational riven with anxiety and seeking certainty ignores everything i have said.*

Not you in particular Grateful, but all people. To understand my
reasoning, you would have to understand a little, how the human
mind works. All people can be irrational at times. All people
can be anxious at times. All people that I know, prefer certainty
over uncertainty. In the brain there is competition going on between
reason and emotion. Every thought is clouded by emotion, if you are
aware of it or not.

All human tribes ever discovered, have come up with some concept
of god, gods etc. Sun gods, moon gods, you name it. Thousands of
them. Given my interest in neuroscience, I questioned why that is
so.

Yep, the classic response from the devoted religionist.

>>...you're belief has no scientific or rational grounds and is a form of escapism. This approach is exactly what you are decrying<<

The insistence that exercising the right not to believe in any one of the many deities on offer, somehow constitutes a "belief".

Thus, in one stroke of the pen, relegating it to the same level of credibility as their own chosen system.

Sorry, grateful, it doesn't work that way.

I wouldn't dream of telling you what to believe or what not to believe. But I do insist that yours is not the only way to look at the world.

As far as this thread is concerned, it was transparent from the start.

You simply tried to develop a theme upon which you could hang your proselytising hat, to tell us all how being a Muslim allows you to voluntarily withdraw from all form of temptations.

It has been pointed out to you that a) this will not solve the problem that you described, since those who volunteer are unlikely to be its cause, and b) that much of the evidence available suggests that the "voluntary" nature of the abstinence involved is highly questionable. The death penalty is quite persuasive, for example.

But your intention here is to preach, rather than to listen. So you find it necessary to hit back, rather than take the discussion on its own merits.

Fair enough, its your thread.

But it does mean that you eventually find yourself in a dead end...

>>It leads to a supremicist and prejudiced mentality. You dare not say: "I don't know" or "I may be wrong"<<

Here's an exercise for you, grateful. It won't take a moment.

Show us evidence from your own posts here, that you have at any point suggested that you "don't know", or "may be wrong".

And have a great day.

@Grateful, “They were not used in the time of the Prophet”.

Two things immediately spring to mind;

1. Religious writers love to exaggerate and sensationalize, don’t they?
2. Less facetious than point one, you are referring to a period steeped in mysticism compared to today in the Western World, though much of that mysticism still exists in Third World countries.

“The third and final verse instructed Muslims to abstain from alcohol and gambling. When this verse was revealed it was reported that the streets were flowing with wine. People just quit the instant they heard the instruction.”

Reported by whom, Reuter’s, CNN or an overwhelmed religious fanatic?

“Why just look at Saudi Arabia? Look at our Muslims neighbours, Indonesia and Malaysia, where the majority of Muslims live, as well as Muslims in Australia.”

Saudi Arabia was just the first Muslim country that came to mind. But since you mentioned Indonesia, then I’ll inform you of beetle nuts, kava juice and the mighty weed, marijuana, are the intoxicants of choice there. Afghanistan, another Muslim country, produces 90% of the world’s heroin supply. And Lebanon produces the highest grade hashish (marijuana resin) in the world, and is where the “water pipe” originates from that we Westerners quaintly term home-made versions of, as a “bong”.

TBC...

“The fact that this does NOT exist (or is very small) among Muslim communities indicates that the demand is simply not there to support it.”

You’re comparing apples with oranges, so let’s put a little perspective on this…

You seem to ignore the fact that Muslim countries are Third World countries. They do not have electricity traversing their countries like we do, and so do not have 2 TV’s in every household for Absolute to sell their Vodka. Nor do they have industrialization to create the disposable income that we have to spend on not only food and shelter, but literally anything we want. While they in contrast, are flat-out putting dinner on the table, let alone a bottle of scotch. And in point of fact, a country like Afghanistan sells heroin to the West so that they CAN put dinner on the table…poppies are a part of their local economy.

And for people that live subsistence lives, there’s little room for even distilling alcohol, since food has a far higher priority, while distilling is also fiddly, time-consuming and requires large amounts of food to make small amounts of alcohol. Survival dictates that the making of alcohol would be stupid and be directly in conflict to survival, except for in those rare times of excess food stocks. And that doesn’t happen often in countries that are basically rock, sand and desert.