I don't know what the real point of this discussion is anymore.
Yes addiction can be bad if it creates problems for the addict and/or their environment/family.
But they might not create a problem.
I don't understand, Dotto- are you saying that an addiction is only defined as addiction if it creates problems and if it does not create problems it is not a 'real' addiction?

Just be practical about this, Grateful. As long as people find pleasure in gambling or drugs, they will find a way to satisfy their need for them.
To be 'willing' to give up these things they like, they need to be motivated and educated; and there needs to be a good reason for them to want to give it up.

Perhaps authorities should be motivated to 'willingly' give up their addiction of wanting to control others :)

Yes Celivia, the point of the discussion was never about addiction, but my point about addiction followed on from the point you made about it and which I think is relevant to the overall picture anyway.

**I don't understand, Dotto- are you saying that an addiction is only defined as addiction if it creates problems and if it does not create problems it is not a 'real' addiction?**

Yes I am saying that more superficially, or maybe part of it was what you said, but what I'm actually saying is that it's not quite that straight-forward, because like just about everything else in life Celivia, it depends. If it's not a 'real' addiction then it's not an addiction. And then it depends upon what kind of 'thing' is being categorised as an addiction. Being addicted to work, the computer, whatever - people do lots of things on a regular basis so it could turn into a neverending list along the continuum of addictions. Let's say for example, that it's just a little bit of an addiction - but that would be like being just a little bit pregnant wouldn't it? So maybe being just a little bit addicted is like not having a 'real' addiction. Maybe it's more like a little bit of harmless pleasure in this sense.

I think a real addict (eg alcoholic) is controlled by their addiction and that this is always damaging to them and those around them in some way or another. In my understanding, someone is not addicted if the addiction is not controlling them and they are aware of how far to go, and when to stop. Doesn't mean that they will never lose control, doesn't mean that at all, just that they are not being controlled by their addiction. With 'real' addiction comes loss of choice, or loss of the ability to have choice because of loss of the judgement to be able to choose anything but the addiction when it comes to making a choice between that and anything else. It's loss of freedom. And that is addiction

If the majority of Australians were to forgo alcohol and gambling (and do so WILLINGLY thereby eliminating the prospect of a black economy emerging) then society would be better off.

I think most of us agree with this statement. Obviously, in fact almost by definition, the problem does not stem from those who drink "responsibly", although it is also true that many of those who do drink "responsibly" have probably, in their youth not been so responsible (myself included).

It is the youth where a lot of the damage is done: alcohol fueled violence, including rape, depression. While it is fair to argue that alcohol does not cause anything (people have to take responsibility for their own actions), it certainly doesn't help and certainly makes problems worse. Here is an excerpt from a study about the link betwen alcohol and rape:

<<ALCOHOL AND RAPE WHAT'S THE CONNECTION

(adapted from "Acquaintance Rape and Alcohol Consumption on College Campuses," by Antonia Abbey, PhD, Journal of American College Health. Vol. 39, January 1991)

Alcohol use by the victim or perpetrator is frequently
associated with acquaintance rape. In one study, 26 percent of the
men who acknowledged committing sexual assault on a date reported
being intoxicated at the time of the assault. An additional 29
percent reported being "mildly buzzed," Thus, a total of 55
Percent were under the influence of alcohol.
In the same study, 21 percent of the college women who
experienced sexual aggression on a date were intoxicated at the
time of the assault. An additional 32 percent reported being
"mildly buzzed." Thus, a total of 53 percent were under the
influence of alcohol.>>

The article goes into detail about the effects of alcohol on men and women: http://www.interactivetheatre.org/resc/alcohol.html

By the way, the description of me as dishonest and manipulative is offensive and really has no justification. In another post i was labeled a child-abuser (another atheist). It reminds me of the sort of name-calling, mocking and bullying tactics of school playgrounds. To be honest i do not understand the pschology of it but it obviously gives you comfort to think of me in that way. Demonise away, i'm used to it.

Yabby:
<<There you go Dotto, a perfect description of the deeply religious!
They live for their religious fix, it affects their every judgement.>>

Another clever person!

Well not quite. An addict does not want to be an addict. They crave for a drink now, but they do not want to continue drinking in the future. Addicts do not want to be addicts. They know that it is in their long run interests not to drink. Their preferences can be expressed as follows

(1) a drink now, but no drink later
(2) no drink now, no drink later
(3) a drink now, a drink later
(4) no drink now, a drink later

What does this mean? These are the payoffs in a prisoners dilemma game (which i’m sure i do not have to explain to you) ranked in order of preference. This is how each situation can be thought of:

(1) one for the road before kicking the habit
(2) kicks the habit now and in the future
(3) status quo
(4) tries but fails: may as well have had the drink

The addict knows that they need to kick the habit for their own well-being. However, at the same time they have a craving for alcohol right now. There is a conflict of interest between the long-run interest and the short-run interest. To kick the habit, the long-run interest needs to prevail. How can it prevail?

Retaliation: the self concerned with the person's overall well-being ‘threatens’ that if he takes the drink now, he will take it in the future as well, so that the impulsive self will not get his preferred option (1) but will end up with option (3): the status quo. Since the addict prefers (2) to (3), he will restrain himself and choose (2) rather than trying for (1). Of course, the addict will fail many times but you get my point (see George Ainslie Derivation of "rational" economic behavior from American Economic Review 81, 334-340, 1991, which, among other articles, can be download from here: http://picoeconomics.org/articles.htm)

cont....

cont...2/2

As for a religious person, i can only speak for the practicing Muslim. If we were to represent the preferences of Muslim we would have the following:

(1) religion now, religion future
(2) no religion now, religion future
(3) without religion in the future

As you can see, a Muslim wants to be sure that he dies with his religion. He doesn't want to give up his religion. He does not see himself as going against his long-term interests in practicing his religion now or in the future. On the contrary, it is against his interests to lose his religion.

The religion in fact is seen as providing a means of overcoming addictions. There was a very well structure process by which the first Muslims were weened off alcohol, so that when the Qur’aan finally called on people not to drink they did so WILLINGLY. There is no such thing as a “moderate drinker” among practicing Muslims: they simply do not drink ...at all!

Muslims fast... for 30 days (from dawn to sunset), young and old, taking absolutely no food or drink (or smoke etc..) in this period...to loosen the bonds of our impulsive selves, learn self-control, patience and gratefulness. We are now in the last 10 days of Ramadan..you guys have no idea what your missing! Again the religion is providing a means of overcoming addictions.
So, at least from a Muslim perspective, religion is an anecdote for addiction: drawing closer to our Creator is seen to be in our long-term interest.

Boy am i in trouble now: let me have guys!