Is the 'Environmental' movement really about 'conserving nature' ?

Does the Rockefella Foundation 'donate' large tracts of land to the federal government for 'wildlife parks' ? (Yes).. did they originally buy much of this land through shell companies to mask the real buyer ?
(yes).. did they also own land near the acquired property ? (yes)...
Did their land skyrocket in value after the park was established ? (yes)

In donating the land.. did they also manage to 'acquire' the rights to hotels etc AT those parks ? (yes)

It is the contention of a startling video "Behind the Green Curtain" that there the environmental movement has been hijacked by powerful financial and political interests.

The evidence is documented.

The reaction has been building for some time now.. with Environmentalist Foundations actually making money from TIMBER MILL interests after they used their 'environmental clout' to shut down other mills... creating an immediate shortage of timber.

Always remember.. behind that next 'endangered species' their might be lurking powerful money and political interests who don't care squat for the furry thing..but they sure do care about nationalizing private property with them pulling the strings of power.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7934453684194357754#

See how an environmentalist lawyer is exposed blatantly using an artificial 'endangered species' ploy to achieve a much bigger goal of control and nationalization of land.

Always remember the UN report on "Human Settlements" (previous thread) where the Vancouver Action Plan 1976 says:

http://habitat.igc.org/vancouver/vp-d.htm

Preamble
1. Land, because of its unique nature and the crucial role it plays in human settlements, cannot be treated as an ordinary asset, controlled by individuals and subject to the pressures and inefficiencies of the market.

Welcome to the GREENS and Bob Browns world of Socialism.

Boazy honestly you baffle me.
I as you know I am suposed to give my preference to the greens.
Yet for the first time ever will not.
But for none of the reasons you give.
I am very concerned with the extremism of Bob Brown, he is not the same man who saved the Tasmanian rivers.
I am aware middle class middle to high income people run the party.
I even think they inhabit a world that truly does not exist.
But Socialist?
Apart from the taint of extremism that keeps the greens third party Australians are conservationists.
How can a Christian become so radical, thats what you are.
Just Boazy as radical and remote from mainstream as Bob Brown.
Brown reminded me to use my preference on saying he no longer agreed with preference deals.
Mine will expire before going to him.

Belly :) yes..I am 'extreme'

"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
II Tim 4:7

The difference between my 'fight' and the war against humanity the Watermelons are waging..is, mine has a good (eternal) outcome.

Dear ALGOREisRICHFAT&UGLY, while there may indeed be shady deals involved with the examples you draw our attention to, and an underlying deviousness, there may also be nothing of the sort or perhaps a mixed bag of good and bad motives.

National parks created as a result of Rockefella Foundation land donations were a win-win situation, were they not? If there had been nothing in it for RF, some or all of those parks may have never been acquired.

In short, the green movement SHOULD be working within the capitalist system, striving to find the support of big business interests, and working towards win-win situations wherever possible.

Al
Is a good eternal outcome the only purpose? What about the damage we wreak while on earth, an earth that you believe your God designed. If entry to heaven is only connected to belief and forgiveness but ignores behaviour, what purpose does religion have in earthly matters?

You state environmentalism has been highjacked by corporate and vested interests and that is possible and by these few isolated examples ask is environmentalism really about conservation. Is that not being disingenuous. The answer will sometimes be NO not when environmental issues are used for false purpose.

But that in itself does not make environmental issues unimportant. I am continually suprised at how some Christians on OLO can completely ignore the importance of the environment merely for the exploitative purposes of man.

Do you think Jesus would have been an environmentalist?

Polycarp,

I'm not surprised by your one eyed approach.
I think that the grouping you serve is even more restrictive of human 'rights', more didactic, far more dictatorial and just as given to deviousness (unchristian by nature and intent.).

Drawing the connection between the Rockefeller Trust and the Australian greens not only tenuous but in context bloody inane.

That's like calling you fornicator and a liar because the leader of the biggest evangelical group in the USA was caught playing away and embezzling funds to do so.

Did it occur to you that some godless entrepreneur on hearing that a rich foundation like The RF being interested would be the basis for outrageous profiteering ?
Come on old son you can't have it both way.

Boazy you must not take your Gods job, he alone will say if your diatribes against others earns you a seat in that non existent heaven.
I love the bush love smelling it walking in it sleeping in it.
I work in it too, my grandfather my father and I for a short time worked in it.
I work in it still looking after some in parks /forests few do not love the new national parks, even less are unhappy that logs are no longer cut down and left to rot.
We have parks to preserve.
Even the greens know that this childish socialism crap ignores it is us who benefit by having wild recreation areas to just walk and live in.

Ludwig.... your descripto of my namesake is entirely accurate, but the network to which he and his mindset are attached is farrrrr more widespread than most people seem to think.

Do you not criticize 'Televangelists' to spruke a prosperity Gospel just to make money ? Of course..I do too... but when Gore raves about 'Global warming/Climate Change' and then is found to have major share holdings in the money making side of it all, errr it begs the question of:
a) His sincerity
b) His true motivation.
c) His ultimate goal.

The same can be said of Maurice Strong, Kathy Zoi and Husband..their various political connections here in Australia, which include Bob Carr (CEO of ENVEX-Carbon trading group)

The point of the vid is not trying to make a general case from 'isolated individuals' but it is making the case first and showing BY some actual instances the more general issue of how corrupt and megalomaniacal and outright dangerous the Environemental movement has become.

Once people have a sniff of 'POWER' they will be corrupted just like everyone else and he lure of the 'flesh' will take over.

Pelly.. you should know me by now.. I see no intrinsic purpose in 'this' life ..without a Creator as logically without Him, it has none.

But beCAUSE we are God's creation, we DO have a purpose and that includes careful stewardship of the planet, with a divine mandate.
So we are under obligation to look after the place.
Watching Bob Brown today at his campaign launch.. I do sympathise with his cry for farm land in the Darling downs not to be consumed by open cut coal mines.
It is not 'that' which I condemn the Greens for, it is their Global Government/Socialism that I object to. That ultimate goal colors all Brown and the Greens say.

Exammy, it is because of the 'group I serve' that you even HAVE 'human rights'... aside from the Almighty and his 2nd great commandment "do for others as you would have them do fo you" there is nothing but empty sentimentality.

*D.B.oazy,* I hope you will excuse me for a slightly off topic comment, but I was wondering if you were familiar with another D.B?

One that Loves the Church, Loves the Liberal party, and who is both anti-green

(and well admittedly, the only reason that the alleged party of "branch stackers" will get over the line is becoz the GREENS will carry them,)

AND

thoroughly ISLAMAPHOBIC.

So much so in fact, that this one time Liberal party candidate a.k.a David Barker from memory, that he was disendorsed for his public anti-muslim comments.

Though it was difficult to say for sure, the brief glance of the camera did pick up a shot of his wife and daughter going into their home who may well have been Indo or Malaysian in background.

With more than 3 characteristics in common, and your comments about a forey into the political realm back in June, I was wondering if there was any connection?

Would you care to comment?

AGIR <" Once people have a sniff of 'POWER' they will be corrupted just like everyone else and he lure of the 'flesh' will take over."

Yes indeed.
You could also be writing about any number of religious organisations in the world- especially in your beloved USA.

Suz.. have I given you the impression that I believe otherwise ?

I'ts true for all mankind....All except...."One"... Jesus of Nazareth.

I also believe though, that this core human nature is redeemable.

It is for that reason (intrinsic megalomania) that Jesus taught as follows:

"If anyone among you would be first, he must become the servant of all"

It wasn't a popular message then...and is hasn't improved on the 'ratings' since, but to those who are called...it is a (beautiful) reality.

If you look at some of the great evangelical missions such as the China Inland Mission, you will find this characteristic in the founder.

Dr James Hudson Taylor is a life worth examining. I served for 9 yrs with that mission, and our general director (supervising over 900 people) was paid the same as me.. the lowly 'foot soldier' so to speak. I think in those days I had about $10/week disposable income
(for a family) after accomodation and food.

I contrast this with the CEO of one of the 'nature' foundations in the USA who is paid $310,000/annum. (it's in the video)

Look at Gore.. Strong...Zoi...etc.. all in it for the money it seems to me. Gore waxes eloquent about "I appointed Kathy Zoi as head of the non profit 'Alliance for Climate Protection'" but she, as Asst Sec of Dept Energy is dishing out truckloads of Stimulus money to 'green' projects.. in one of which her husband is a senior executive (Serious Materials).... and she has HUGE shareholdings in the Smart meter company Landis and Gyr. The sole purpose of that 'Alliance' by the way, is to 'persuade people that Climate Change is real'.... (which benefits Gores company Generation Investments LLC)
That 'alliance' was given $300 MILLION dollars to do just that.

Me smelleth many rats :)

"But beCAUSE we are God's creation, we DO have a purpose and that includes careful stewardship of the planet, with a divine mandate."

That said Al, why do you continually diminish environmentalism. It doesn't matter what you think of the Greens or of Bob Brown as it is irrelevant in terms of environmental stewardship. The Greens don't hold full ownership over environmentalism although they are one of the groups who is doing anything positive on this front.

We can all take ownership.

I have yet to see you start a topic about conservation so far you continue to deride it for a political agenda. Whoever said you had to be a socialist to care for the planet?

You miss my point about your cherrypicking only the self-interested motivations behind some environmental projects as though this represents all environmentalists and thus you wash your hands of it.

A Google search shows there are many Christians who are involved in environmental stewardship. Why not use their positive examples rather than holding up corporate interests as the standard.

What? You’re starting up the same dribble over here in this thread?

I watched 20 minutes of that so called ‘documentary’ and debunked it back in “Christians voting for the Greens” thread. It’s a waste of time, a mad conspiracy theory. It’s up there with being probed by the aliens. It’s nuts.

“Always remember.. behind that next 'endangered species' their might be lurking powerful money and political interests who don't care squat for the furry thing..but they sure do care about nationalizing private property with them pulling the strings of power.”

This is utterly and totally insane! I was recently listening to an excellent ABC podcast on the Murray Darling. In the lifetime of study of one of the field biologists studying the Koorong, 9 birds have gone extinct! Vanished forever!
&#8232;Is that good ‘creation care’? Is that ‘tending the Garden’?

“See how an environmentalist lawyer is exposed blatantly using an artificial 'endangered species' ploy to achieve a much bigger goal of control and nationalization of land.”
Yeah, I saw that bit and thought it was a very dishonest ploy from one guy who’s environmental passion has got the better of him. But Christians have never used any dishonest means to wrangle money or get people into churches, have we? ;-) Does that disprove the Christian faith, or are some Christians just dishonest thieving wolves in sheeps clothing?

Nothing you have said here disproves the environmental claim that not only species, but entire ecosystems are going extinct 1000 times faster than natural rates of extinction. Nothing here says what we should do to protect the 50% of biodiversity we are about to lose. There are vital genetic answers to questions we don’t even know how to ask yet, and they are being lost, forever! Nothing here glorifies God by proposing that we care for his creation!

Pelican has got it in one! Christianity is not all about heaven, but also celebrates THIS world, this meal, this tree, that ecosystem, this human body. We are not ashamed of our physical form or world. We should celebrate and protect it!

ALGORE,
Seriously, a CEO of a *major* nature foundation is paid $310 grand annually? Quick, someone call the United Nations and call out the national guard, we’re about to be taken over! There’s no way we can stand against THAT KIND OF MONEY! As Neil said (on the “Young Ones”), “Help, Help, I’m being oppressed!”

Um, get a grip. If he’s the CEO of a major USA conservation foundation he’s running a BIG organisation. He’s also highly talented, and *could* have become the CEO of a more profitable institution, one that paid $300 MILLION per annum! That’s the kind of wealth greenies are up against!

Seriously mate, the science is against you, and the maths is against your weird conspiracy theory obsession. Count how much money fossil fuel companies have on the one hand, and then count ALL the greenie organisations IN THE WORLD together on the other hand. Who wins? Go figure.

In the face of those odds, if a few greenies actually do manage to pull a few strings I’ll not only be amazed, but a bitter and disillusioned part of me might actually want to sit back and CHEER!

Disprove that half the world’s biology is threatened with extinction by the very ‘private land owners’ you seem to value so highly! Suburbia grows exponentially across the western world. It assumes the names of the places it destroys. I’ll make up a few names to protect the innocent. Duck’s Crossing has no ducks, Pine Hill, has no Pines, Meadow Lakes has no Meadows, and the lakes are being drained for more DEVELOPERS!

If you want to see a REAL conspiracy in action, watch Dick Smith’s Population Puzzle. It clearly explains the links between overpopulation in Australia and the big developers. Australia’s largest developers are quoted as wanting to bulldoze our national parks!
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/populationpuzzle/

If anything, the REAL conspiracy is in exactly the opposite direction to the one you paint! Developers want to bulldoze our public parks so they can make billions selling it to private individuals. I say BACK OFF!

Boazy

>"it is because of the 'group I serve' that you even HAVE 'human rights'"<.

Sorry bet that is just so much rubbish.
To follow that up with the golden rule is just so hypercritical for any church least of all by any individual.

I thought that Christians served God not institutions.
doesn't the Bible say something along the lines of
- have no other Gods before me' and "a man can not serve two masters"
et al.

BTW the golden rule dates to much older religions than Christianity and Judaism.

In short you views on the Greens are simply visceral.

I have no problem with religion or no religion it is a matter of PERSONAL choice but proselytizing is simply imposing ones emotional perspective on others.

Let's be clear I DON'T come here to convert anybody to anything merely to facilitate thought.

Seriously AL GORE... watch the Dick Smith population documentary.

Watch it online here.
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/populationpuzzle/video.html#top

If developers had their way, Australia would be approaching 200 million people and every last bit of our natural heritage, the public property that is our natural parks, would be paved over or ploughed up.

If you don't watch movies online, contact me at the email I've provided on my about page, and we'll see what we can do about it.

http://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/about/

Eclipse Now,

You say you like the modern world, but you don't like its shape.
The modern world and its shape are one and the same.
Concentration of factory production within larger urban conglomerations was part of the development of the industrial system - suburbia, in prosperous western nations, is an integral component of such a system.
It is not just about "boring" work. It's about the creative relevance of that work to the human that is undertaking it. If there is no intrinsic connection between a person and his labours then his experience as a contributory soul within his community and environment is impoverished.
If your daily toil affords you some creative relationship between yourself and the things you produce, then you are one of lucky ones. The great majority of "workers" in the post-industrial world do not experience a sense of relatedness to the things they produce nor to the products they consume.

Dear Pelly

you said:

"why do you continually diminish environmentalism"

:) mainly because of the 'ism' bit. I am not against good stewardship of the planet, I am vehemently against EnviroNazi's who have latched on to the Green movement like limit mines and are using it for:

a) Political power as an end in itself. (Gore Strong, Zoi etc)
b) Financial gain as an end in itself. (Gore, Zoi, Strong etc)
c) But most/worst of all, is the connection between the environmental 'movement' and communism/socialism/neo Marxism.
d) How the 'movement' is being used by scurrilous unconscienable minions as a soft weapon of war against freedom.

When a man can be jailed for 3 yrs on the strength of an interpretation of the word "water", which the 'StateEnvironaziGestaopoSS' claimed means 'land' then.. houston..we have a problem.

One thing you might have missed in the Video (if you watched it) was live footage of an Environmentalist openly saying how they would look for a good 'candidate/surrogate' for 'engangered species' to halt logging until they got the 'real' legislation in place. i.e.. they simply 'made it up' for an 'end justifies the means' approach to it.

That is megalomania, corruption, fraud.

Environmental responsibility is taking consideration of the relative benefits to mankind of various course of action re the planet. Obviously, a course of action which destroys the place is not good stewardship. But let's be clear, MAN is the penultimate species and we are not going to be ruled by some creeping crawling thing which might be endangered by our presense. YES..if we can show that said creeping thing is a vital part of some food chain....we need to reflect on the action.

@ECLIPSE
My opposition to EnvironNazi's is 'conspiracy theory' ? :) haha de ha ha Eclipsy. Just read the writing on the wall.. the UN documents about 'private property' and you have it as plain as Martin Luther.

continued..

@ ECLIPSE

http://habitat.igc.org/vancouver/vp-d.htm

1. Land, because of its unique nature and the crucial role it plays in human settlements, cannot be treated as an ordinary asset, controlled by individuals and subject to the pressures and inefficiencies of the market. Private land ownership is also a principal instrument of accumulation and concentration of wealth and therefore contributes to social injustice;

Now.. forgive me for living in lala land but if words mean anything the above is abundantly clear about the socialist credentials of the UN or the people PULLING it's strings.

When you bluster about 'The science'..'The maths' etc is against me... huh? how so ? Have I said anything other than we need to have good stewardship of the planet ? All I'm doing is EXPOSING the corrupt, greedy,socialist side of the EnviroNazi movement.

Eclipse says:

If developers had their way, Australia would be approaching 200 million people and every last bit of our natural heritage, the public property that is our natural parks, would be paved over or ploughed up.

Indeed... quite possibly, but the forces holding such development BACK are not the Environazi's it is DEMOCRACY and freedom of speech, plus a liberal dose of common sense. Err tomorrow you and I can make a choice of who runs the country.

@ EXAMMY

Aaah.. we fight again :)

The thing which gives humans 'rights' is this "I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other gods before me"

Those 'rights' (and responsibilities)are spelled out in Deuteronomy in principle.

Jesus said you cannot serve God and Mammon... and quite right.
"Mammon" was the flesh...the self.. the greed the immorality the evil which comes from the human heart.

It's not a political statement.

If we do not acknowledge the Almighty and His revealed Word, then we have the gods of mans imagination, which might include the god of Marx, dialectical materialism. Or the god of DeSade....or the god of Machievelli, or the god of Gillard or the gay 'god' of Bob Brown etc.

In short.. it can go 'any'-where

ALGORE,

Your document is recommendations for a democratic market-based society. Even the paragraph you quote (out of context!) is full of qualifying statements, such as “ordinary asset” and “if unchecked”.

I think you would largely agree with paragraph 2.

Instead, the pattern of land use should be determined by the long-term interests of the community, especially since decisions on location of activities and therefore of specific land uses have a long-lasting effect on the pattern and structure of human settlements. Land is also a primary element of the natural and man-made environment and a crucial link in an often delicate balance. Public control of land use is therefore indispensable to its protection as an asset and the achievement of the long-term objectives of human settlement policies and strategies.”

You shared your desires for satellite cities and green spaces. How do we get there? By reforming the same town planning authorities that got us into the suburban mess! When reading the *whole* document it becomes apparent that they are warning against seeing *any and all* private ownership as sacrosanct above any other public consideration. They are talking about how to *balance* the rights of the individual with due compensation and the rights of the public or government authorities.

Paragraph D.3 says taxation could have “a controlling effect on the land market”, so there IS still a market and private ownership of land. But elsewhere they also talk about “adequate urban and rural land policies” , “appropriate legislation defining the boundaries of individual rights and public interest”, etc.

You’ve exposed yourself as a cherry-picker. Try drawing up a document showing how to move all those McMansions into your town plan without it being open to the same cherry-picking. Nutters just read what they want to!

The Dick Smith movie said 11% of Australia’s GDP is in the housing and construction industry. That’s over $100 billion a year. Which Australian greenie group has that kind of money?

Answer me this: how much choice did I have regarding whether or not to live in suburbia?

ALGORE,

When I asked about how much choice I had regarding whether or not to live in suburbia, I was making the point that *someone* in authority, in the ‘public’, gave developers the go-ahead to turn a bunch of Sydney’s local agricultural land into McMansions.

I don’t like suburbia. I don’t like having to drive everywhere. But I didn’t have the money to buy in Glebe! So how much choice did I have? How democratic was my decision to buy out here in suburbia? I just couldn’t afford the kind of inner-city pad my family would need to run a business from home.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGJt_YXIoJI

Sorry mate, but that’s down to bad *public planning!* (Oh no, they used the “p” word, Australia must be overrun with communists!)

How much money does Green-peace Australia and the ACF have again? Combined? And what’s the developer industry worth again? (Just whisper it in my ear?)

Get a grip, you’re actually embarrassing yourself and sound like you are foaming-at the mouth. THERE’S RED’S UNDER THE BED! We’re all going to die… aaaaaahhhhhhh!

Dear brother Eclipse :)

a) Sorry mate, but that’s down to bad *public planning!* b) (Oh no, they used the “p” word, Australia must be overrun with communists!)

On point "a" I tend to agree. But "Planning" is done relative to who is pulling the political strings.....I just missed out on being able to make megabucks... when a labor planning minister came in..grrrrr... Melbourne 2030 may was well be termed 'The Beast 666' as far as I'm concerned....but.. election coming up soon :) wooooHOOOOOOO.. and I think we Victorians have had enough of "FREE....way" (pre election) = TOLLLL way (Post election)

The Churches will NEVER forget OR forgive Labor and the Greens for their support of the draconian Neitzchian 'god is dead' Evil Opportunity and Repression Act.. never never never.

I told our local member (James Merlino ALP) as much after he popped up at a local prayer breakfast trying to score some Christian points. (It was a packout by the way)

Soooo... Labor will be 'out' in Vic come November I think..Libs will be 'in'.. but Familiy First will have a bigger voice. I'll order my Porche :) (kidding)and the universe will be in balance.

On point 'b'... a slight exaggeration but not far off the truth.
No one will be overunning us, but the Socialists are very determined to control every aspect of our lives. (Ring them and ask..I did)

(03) 9639 8622

If you want to campaign for 'Hi Density, (up rather than out) closely linked, public transport facilitated sattelite cities or something..I'm with you. But that kind of life is not everyone's cuppa....

I love some space, trees and the occasional Wallaby bouncing along my boundary.. and I enjoy it daily :)

ALGORE,
Glad to hear you admit the UN are not running a watermelon Greenie socialist conspiracy, but are in fact discussing changes to town policy legislation. It’s about time. Can you try and read documents you cite *before* making slanderous and silly accusations like that next time? This whole thread is responding to that one point: and you just surrender it by writing: “On point "a" I tend to agree.”

You wrote: “The Churches will NEVER forget OR forgive Labor and the Greens for their support of the draconian Neitzchian 'god is dead' Evil Opportunity and Repression Act.. never never never.”

Um, what? Is this a Victorian thing? We’re talking about the FEDERAL election.

Christians and Partisanship: Written by another acquaintance and fellow peak oil activist, Minister Byron Smith, currently studying his Phd on the role of the church in a world in crisis. (The Crisis being peak oil, global warming, and generally unsustainable and prone to collapse and dieoff events).
It contains the great line: “Consequently, voting is only ever possible while holding one's nose. I've rarely voted with much confidence and never without some degree of regret, often quite deep.”
http://publicchristianity.org/christians_and_partisanship.html

Does Australia need a Christian Prime Minister: written by one of my best friends, Dr Greg Clarke.
http://publicchristianity.org/christian_pm.html

And a video of Mark Driscoll on Christianity and society on legislating morality. You can’t! They also discuss the failure of John Calvin’s “Christian society”. Moral change comes from the ‘bottom up’ rather than legislating from the ‘top down’.

I think you’ll like Mark’s take on it.
http://www.publicchristianity.com/Videos/driscoll3.html

Hint: just relax about it!

Regarding Public Space and parks: I agree with you, but there are many options. It’s not ‘either / or’ but ‘both / and’ in a sumptuous environment.

Watch the 5 minute “Brief Introduction video 2010”. This is a VERY passionate and beautiful critique and alternative vision for Village Towns. I’ve met the author. This is happening south of Sydney! Watch the first 2 videos at a minimum!

http://www.villageforum.com/

@ Eclipse

No mate..the UN is seeeeething with commies :) they are everywhere!

But they, like the big bad wolf, dress up in Grannies clothes... and I think a goodly number of them really would.

There is an overwhelmingly stifling theme in that Vancounver declaration...it's called CONNNTROLLLLLLLL.. and I'm talking UBERcontrol

The language masks the diabolical motive but it's there.

"The UN" is not a monolithic office of like minded people, but a competitive war zone where ideologies are bringing the Panzers and scimitars out to do battle with non them.

Just look at this please.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE52P60220090326

That's just one example of how Religious interests are seeking to manipulate the UN for the furtherence of their own faith.

I tried your vids but just saw a black screen..... any other links to them ?

ALGORE,
You’re a sad, strange, paranoid little man. There are communists in every major group, wanting to take over the world. There are Scientologists in every major group, wanting to take over the world. There are Greenies, Christians, Rastafarians, Hindu’s, Sex Party workers, Climate sceptics, Illuminarti, Masons, and BANKERS that want to take over the world. So I KNOW socialist’s want to take over the world. It’s in their mission statement, just as a similar mission statement is in the Koran.

But do you have any proof?

Meanwhile, the oil companies sit back and take 10% of the world’s GDP and laugh it up as they pollute the Gulf of Mexico, because oil and oil based policies really DO control the world.

Think about it! Instead of building walking and cycling based city plans, we’ve built car based city plans. Instead of saving 3-4% GDP with public transport, we waste 10’s of billions a year on car accidents, traffic jams, and subsidising excessive roads and highways and parking lots.

I asked you how you were going to install your preferred city plan? You rudely ignored that vital point, and are now asking me to read yet another of your paranoid links. But no. This conversation stops here unless you address that question!

IS THE VANCOUVER DECLARATION A SOCIALIST MANIFESTO or merely recommending considered changes to existing town planning policies?
How would you write a town planning manifesto around satellite cities and public transport WITHOUT it sounding “CONTROLLLING!”

Time to quote my blog at you.

“Some react negatively because they are under the mistaken impression that ‘the market’ controls city growth. Wrong. Private developers might slap the bricks and mortar together, but in most western democracies they have to go through local and State town planning authorities. Suburbs are already ‘planned neighbourhoods’ — but sadly, the wrong plan. You live where you live because some ‘Suburb Nazi’ authorised your division. Deal with it.”
http://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/rezone/

Golly Gosh Eclipse.. ur sounding more like a tryant than ever.

"You are a sad little paranoid man"

"You rudely...."

THIS CONVO STOPS NOW unles......

R u sure you are reformed ? as in..Sola Scriptura and faith in Christ?

You know..Galatians 2:20 etc

I've read the communist manifesto.

//The proletarians cannot become masters of the productive forces of society, except by abolishing their own previous mode of appropriation, and thereby also every other previous mode of appropriation. They have nothing of their own to secure and to fortify; their mission is to destroy all previous securities for, and insurances of, individual property.//

You already know what the Vancouver Action plan says about 'private' property... if they both basically say the same...go figure.

I don't expect you to 'read' that linke..other than simply see the headline.. if you wish to read more..by all means. It was evidence of manipulation.

How would I implement my 'sattelite cities' ? with the usual means of contractors and planning.

But I wouldn't 'plan' private property out of existence.

Sorry, my bad. I already said I KNOW socialists want to control the world. When I said "Do you have any proof" I wanted to know about statistics. How many Greens are also communists? What are their *policies* here in Australia? What makes them "Communist"? What makes your ranting about a 'socialist green conspiracy' to take over the world any more realistic than the Masons taking over the world?

You've basically lied to this forum about the Vancouver declaration.

"How would I implement my 'sattelite cities' ? with the usual means of contractors and planning."
Planning! You evil control freak! How the heck are you going to do that!

"But I wouldn't 'plan' private property out of existence."
Neither would they if you bother to READ the whole document! You're *lying* again.

Algore,
I hope you understand that much of my last post was in irony. So when I said “Planning! You evil control freak! How the heck are you going to do that!” it was in the mock-serious tone of trying to highlight that this is exactly what the Vancouver declaration has tried to do! Yet when one puts pen to paper, it can sound sinister.

Vancouver was highlighting the dangers of viewing ‘private property’ as eternally permanent fixtures of the landscape that can never, but never, be rezoned.

The Vancouver document challenged this view and promoted the urgency of rezoning land use as appropriate. It said NOTHING about the State ‘owning’ all the land and ushering in a Socialist State! It is about ‘public control’ not ‘public ownership’. It is about the right to rezone land as necessary, not the ‘right’ of the State to acquire land without due compensation!

Q1: How do you tax something that does not exist? Did you bother to read: “Taxation should not be seen only as a source of revenue for the community but also as a powerful tool to encourage development of desirable locations, to exercise a controlling effect on the land market”
Did you read that last word? So while I don’t have a view on how effective taxation is to implement land use changes, it definitely talks about a *market*. That’s private ownership buddy!

I highlighted this to you in previous posts. You just decided to ignore it, and then went around quoting communists and cherrypicking from Vancouver. You have proved NOTHING other than the fact that you cherry-pick and can't read, and don't understand planning processes.

Q2: If it were a communist manifesto, why have so many American free enterprise and public planning associations signed up to it?

The Global Planners Network have adopted it.
Founder members are: American Planning Association (APA)[8] Canadian Institute of Planners (CIP)[9] Commonwealth Association of Planners (CAP)[10] Planning Institute of Australia (PIA)[11] Royal Town Planning Institute (RTPI)[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Planners_Network

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Planners_Congress

http://www.globalplannersnetwork.org/

Al Gore, any further comments? I hope your absence indicates thought and contrition over your position here, and not sickness, or some family emergency?

(I hope you are well).

Eclipse Now, I think Boazy's having a bit of a break from bashing Greens in favour of his old favourite pastime of Muslim-bashing.

*Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 29 August 2010 1:29:51 PM*

" ... Eclipse Now, I think Boazy's having a bit of a break from bashing Greens in favour of his old favourite pastime of Muslim-bashing. ... "

HaHa .. *Boazy* is still in "shock and awe" after the masterful performance of the Greens.

1st time in the "House of Reps"

Big time in the Senate form July - WOO HOO!

..

Mayhaps *Boazy* some shared bread and wine after doing a pretty good job on gutting the ALP. Absolutely magnificent stuff in my view.

;-)