Dear Proxy,

I have already cited for you the source of
my information, Professor Abdullah Saeed,
and his book, "Islam in Australia."
He is a recognised expert on the subject.
I don't pretend to be.

If you're really interested in the subject,
I can highly recommend this work to you.
It should be available from your local
library or if it's not, you can always
suggest they purchase the book for you.

The reason I'm questioning your assumptions,
is, as Prof. Saeed clearly states:

"There is no central authoritative body or
institution among Muslims to determine precisely
what is Islamic, and what is not. Muslims do not
have a figure such as the Pope, to determine
which interpretation of the Qur'an or the
traditions of the Prophet is correct. In a sense,
then, Islam is a rather democratic religion when
it comes to determining what is acceptable and what
is not, because potentially everyone has a say in it,
so to speak. In practice, it is the scholars of
religion who have studied the Qur'an, the traditions,
the history, the civilisation and the customs of
Muslims, who have the most important say. But even
then, they speak and act only as individuals, and
cannot enforce their opinions on the whole Muslim
community, neither around the world nor even in a
particular locality."

If you want to know the trends within Australian Islam,
however, I respectfully suggest that you
read Prof. Saeed's book.

It just may clarify things for you.

There’s an article in today’s The Australian from, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, that may have some relevance to this thread.

She makes the following interesting observations:
“The taboo subject used to be the indigenous people of Australia. Nowadays it is Islam”

"People from Britain have long been the single largest group of settlers coming to Australia. But the most recent data for all permanent additions to the population by country of birth shows that people from predominantly Muslim countries account for a larger share: 12.5 per cent of new settlers, compared with 11.9 per cent from Britain."

“Perhaps, on Islam, Australia is too laid-back for its own good” .

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/too-laid-back-about-immigration/story-e6frg6zo-1225901965765

[Now, it’d be hard to accuse her of being a racist redneck!]

Dear Horus,

Sometimes we have to look at
not only both sides of an issue,
but also around the edges as well.
Ayaan-Hirsi-Ali certainly appeals
to people with an ax to grind.
I read her books, "The Caged Virgin,"
and "Infidel,"
when they first came out, and like
everyone else, was quite shocked
by her disclosures. I mean, who
wouldn't be? Then years later,
there were articles in "The New York
Times," and "The Washington Post,"
questioning some of the authenticity
of Ali's claims and stories about her
past.

The following website may help:

http://fanonite.org/2007/02/20/lifting-the-veil-on-ayaan-hirsi-ali/

Foxy,

<<For_most_Muslims_in_Australia,_the_debate_on_an_Islamic_state_with_Islamic_law,_is_irrelevant.>>
Please tell me how you can claim to make this statement on behalf of “most Muslims in Australia.”

<<First,_Muslims_are_a_small_minority_and_even_if_they_wanted_they_couldn't_have_what's_called_an_Islamic_state_with_Islamic_law_here.>>
The small minority of Muslims in France have effectively annexed more the 750 Zones Urbaines Sensibles over which the French authorities have relinquished control.
The small minority of Muslims in UK have effectively implemented Shariah Law.

<<Secondly, the Australian state allows total
freedom for Muslims to practice their religion
and therefore there's no need for an alternative
"state" or system.>>
The concept of freedom which we value is anti-thetical to Islam, which values submission to the will of Allah, not freedom.

<<From their point of view,
Muslims in Australia can function perfectly well
as Muslims and Australians without an Islamic
state.>>

“From their point of view” or from your point of view?
Muslims in Australia are subject to Australian law.
Australian law is inconsistent with Islamic law.
Islam teaches that man-made (ie Australian law) is sub-ordinate to Islamic law.
Does this not present a conflict?
How does this translate to functioning perfectly well?

As for Abdullah Saeed:

“(In his) book … Freedom of Religion, Apostasy and Islam Saeed … admits that the “vast majority of Muslim scholars writing on the issue of apostasy today follow the pre-modern position” – namely, that apostasy warrants death.”
http://www.quadrant.org.au/blogs/muehlenberg/2009/05/thinking-about-islam-and-public-policy

So the vast majority of Islamic scholars advocate the death penalty for Islamic apostasy, but Australians shouldn’t worry because Professor Saeed disagrees with them.
Ipso facto, Australian Muslims also disagree with the vast majority of Islamic scholars.
Just love your analysis.
It’s very comforting.
Particularly in light of Hizb ut-Tahrir Australia’s draft constitution, Article 7, section c which states: Those who are guilty of apostasy (murtad) from Islam are to be executed according to the rule of apostasy, provided they have themselves renounced Islam.

As for Muhammad Idrees Ahmad on Ayaan Hirsi Ali,
I choose to believe Ali and Wafa Sultan and Nonie Darwish and Nagla Al Imam and Mohammed Asghar et al. who “have all faced threats, intimidation and discrimination due to their exercising their right to religious freedom.”
http://formermuslimsunited.americancommunityexchange.org

Oh Gawd ...... yet another topic started specifically to vilify an entire religion. This site has quite a few anti religion bigots (often they are anti "all" religious belief), and that's good. It allows them to spew their hatred and fear in the "open", which enables the more civilised amongst us to know where certain people are coming from regarding their beliefs and attitudes.

Foxy, I read your “Lifting the Veil” link -- through the middle and around the edges too.

It didn’t start out very impressively, though –look at this:
“Every once in a while, a native informer comes along who is willing to affirm his or her own inferiority in order to help the West rationalize its neocolonial grip on the South. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is the latest, and one of the more ambitious among them.”

Talking about people with axes to grind! (If I hadn’t known it was some guy called Muhammad, I would have thought the author was Lizzie Borden)