Dear AGIR,

You refer to "killer cheekbones?"
Yours or mine?
And I agree, they will not win
any debate - but then in
any debate or discussion
amongst intelligent people - resorting
to personal inferences indicates
intellectual bankruptcy, and a lost
argument. You must stop doing that, if
you want to have any credibility.
References to "fox- holes," "killer-cheekbones"
"socialist lefties," et cetera, doesn't excuse your
selective cherry-picking of verses in the
Qur'an that are open to interpretation - and
are considered controversial by many Muslims,
as the Prophet himself forbade the beating of
of any woman ("Never beat God's handmaidens")
and many of the greatest medieval scholars
were of the opinion that physical disciplining
should be a symbolic measure only.

Both Traditionalist and neo-Modernist men and women
take the view, according to Prof. Saeed, that domestic
violence has no place in Islam.

But you go on believing and arguing whatever you want.
It's becoming of little concern to me, and other posters,
on this Forum.

You'd make a great Imam yourself, Boaz.

>>how many video's does a person need of Imams explaining this verse ... before folk 'get' that this is an essential and central part of the religion itself ?<<

The part that you conveniently ignore, of course, is that the vast majority of the tiny minority of Australians who are Muslims, wouldn't dream of wasting their time watching extremist Imams on YouTube.

They may be the intended audience, but I would be prepared to wager that these videos are predominantly watched by fearful Christians, intent on feeding their own prejudices.

>>The issue really should be.. "Does Islam teach that a man may beat his wife"? plain and simple.. does it...or doesn't it?<<

Sorry, but in practical terms, the issue is as I stated it: Muslim men are equally as likely as Christians, to beat their wives.

It is a fact of life that not every religious person insists on the "letter of the law", whether set down by Moses, Jesus or Mohammed. They accept the guidelines, of course, but pick and choose the small print.

It is a fact of life, as you well know, that even Christians choose to ignore those aspects of their own scriptures that they find uncomfortable, or inconvenient.

>>The only way some of you folks can rationalize this is by simple denial.... correct ?<<

Boaz, we live in Australia, under Australian law. There is nothing to "rationalize", as you put it, in the Australian context. The fact that I disapprove of wife-beating by any person, whatever their religious persuasion - as well, by the way, as I disagree with a father inflicting corporal punishment on his fifteen-year-old daughter - puts me firmly on right the side of the law.

Foxy,
For cherry-picking, you take the cake.
Trouble is, the tree from which you pick has remarkably few cherries.
On the other hand:

(Al-Hadis, Vol. 3, p. 137) Abu Sayeed al-Khodri reported that Mohammed was talking to a group of women when he said, "... I see the majority of you will go to Hell." The women asked why, to which Mohammed responded, "You often curse and are ungrateful to your companions." He then told them they had a basic defect in their nature, to which they responded, "How?" Mohammed answered, "Is not the attestation (knowledge and witness) of a women only worth half of a man's? And that is on account of her short intelligence."

(Al Hadis, Vol. 2, p. 692) Ibn Ma`sud reported from the Messenger of Allah who said, "A woman is like a private part (sex organ). When she goes out (walking) the devil casts a glance at her (in lust)."

(Koran 4:16) If any one of your women is guilty of lewdness ...confine them until death claims them.

(Koran 4:34) ...As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds and BEAT THEM...

(Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p. 215) Omar reported from the Holy Prophet who said, "No man shall be questioned for beating his wife."

(Sahih Muslim Hadith Chapter 619) Selling a cat, selling a dog (unless it is a working dog), and earning of prostitutes(unless they are non-muslims),... are all forbidden.

(Al Hadis, Vol. 2. p. 638) Abdur Rahman- b-Salem reported that the Apostle of Allah said, "You should marry virgins, and verily they are sweeter in tongue, more prolific in wombs, and easily satisfied with little."

(Al Hadis, Vol. 4, p. 172, No. 34) Ali reported that the Apostle of Allah said, "There is in Paradise a market wherein there will be no buying or selling, but will consist of men and women. When a man desires a beauty, he will have intercourse with them."

What an oddball thought, Boaz.

>>But if you put your thinking cap on.. who would 'choose' to be subservient to another's religion ?<<

The answer is clearly, "nobody".

So why are you so concerned about the impact of fewer than 2% of the population?

Their scriptures may insist on obedience to arcane laws, but do you actually see any widespread evidence of this in Australia?

Do you not, instead, see all around you a bunch of peace-loving, domesticated Australians, with the same level of aspiration for their religion to take over the world, as you have for yours? And given that your lot substantially outnumbers their lot, why all the fear and loathing? To what purpose, and what end?

Your belief that every non-terrorist Muslim hides a seething ambition to turn the world to Islam is, I'm afraid, nothing more than a reflection of your own fear and insecurity.

Dear foxy.... when I saw the quality of your last post I dropped everything and rushed to my other computer to respond :)

Oh.. on the 'Killer Cheekbones' .. that was "your" self description mate.. not mine.

That last post was the closest you have come to actually engaging for a long time.

But in order to see just how questionable sources such as the one you use are(Saeed) let's compare his words.. with something closer to the 'action' in the community of Muhammad?

SAEED. (via Foxy)

"Both Traditionalist and neo-Modernist men and women
take the view, according to Prof. Saeed, that domestic
violence has no place in Islam."

HADITH.(Muslim). (not quoted by Proxy above)

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/004.smt.html#004.2127

It's a long one, so I'll paste just the important bit.(Ayesha his wife speaking)

"He (muhammad) said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?"

COMMENT
The important point dear Foxy, is that with this religion, you cannot tie it down to very much because it's all over the place with these rules vs examples.

In all honesty, given the clear fact from the mouth of Muhammad's wife that he STRUCK her and caused her pain.... can you still say that Saeed is doing anything other than simply trying to cover it all up ?

We can leave our private opinions about Islam and Muslims alone, this is just an issue of truth.

Does the Quran specifically permit the beating of a wife? (4.34)

yes.

Did Muhammad himself strike his wife and cause her pain?

yes.

I know we can 'interpret' just about any meaning we wish to into 'scriptures'...but reason and intellectual honesty dictates that our conclusions have at least some connection to the facts.

You presented distant and 'managed' opinion by those who simply wish to avoid any stigma of their religion.
Agree ?

Pericles, you are just looping....

Yes, we are in Australia... just 2%

Yet from that 2% we have had more mayhem, terrorism and attacks (Planned or carried out) than from any other group with HUGELY larger representation population wise. And those attacks were on the basis of a 'holy' book, and they were aimed at 'all of us' unlike our crime gangs wiping each other out.

You know this, really you do, so why loop back to your stockade of "why fear 2%"

Welll....lemme think..

-"bomb the MCG at grandfinal day"
-"Kill as many soldiers at Holsworthy as we can before we are martyred"
-"Blowup various targets around Sydney"

All this from just 2% ....wow.

Forgive my irrationality :)

But even if none of the above had happened, you should know my position well enough by now that it is the 'ideas' I object to, not so much the majority of the people who follow "Just enough to hatch, match and despatch" their community members.

You see Pericles, I've lived this nightmare.. in real life, and if what I experienced from a 'moderate' state is anything to go by, there is plennnnnty to be concerned about with even .01% let alone 2%