Is that right, Proxy?

>>Nobody is suggesting that only Muslims beat their wives<<

I thought that was precisely what you were suggesting.

Never mind. Are we able to agree for the moment, therefore, that Muslim men are equally as likely as Christians, to beat their wives? Or do you have statistics to the contrary?

My point is that each has recourse to the same law of the land. The law of the land has not been subverted by the existence of either Beth Din, or Sharia tribunals.

You reference, by the way Proxy, was pure propaganda. Short on facts, long on supposition and emotive string-tugging.

But I do agree, purely "for the avoidance of doubt", with one of its recommendations, which is:

"that family arbitration which was not conducted exclusively in accordance with... secular law did not constitute family arbitration, and would not have any legal effect."

(By the way, I have it on very good authority that it is perfectly acceptable for Christians to beat their daughters. I wonder why the Qur'an is silent on this topic?)

>>What are the implications of having a growing percentage of the population whose apparent aim is to implement Sharia Law?<<

None that are particularly noticeable, noteworthy or even remotely concerning.

Now,I don’t know what the *domestic violence* figures are culture v culture, but I rather doubt you'd see the like of this in most other regions!

“It is well-document - and it has been here - that maids in many Middle Eastern countries are horrifically mistreated. Imported from Asian nations, they live in a climate devoid of any legal protection. The lack of legal recourse would not be so bad if the hosting family bothered to treat them with dignity, to treat them as if they are human.
Domestic maids in Lebanon, for instance, are often such victims of abhorrent abuse - beatings, overworked, made to sleep in the balcony, ect... - that they often resort at alarming rates of committing suicide to escape the abuse.”
http://marcovilla.instablogs.com/entry/maids-in-kuwait-seek-refugee/

“The New York-based organisation Human Rights Watch has called on Saudi Arabia to do more to protect Asian domestic workers from mistreatment.
It says some cases amount to slavery, with employers going unpunished for withholding wages, forced confinement, or physical and sexual violence.
HRW says some workers are imprisoned or lashed on spurious charges such as theft, adultery or witchcraft.
Thousands take shelter with the Social Affairs ministry or foreign embassies.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7495660.stm

“Little attention is paid to the working or living conditions of these workers, either physical or emotional, and the little research that has been conducted has suggested that abuse of these female workers is widespread and their legal options are severely limited. They rarely receive coverage in the Arabic press, and investigations by journalists are not conducted in the popular press”
http://www.aelme.org/lebanon-syria-sri-lankan-maids-abuse

Some of the offending countries are rich and some are poor --but they all share a common heritage.

Dear Proxy,

Giving us selected quotes actually doesn't
address the problem. It's like quoting
from any Holy Book selectively. Furthermore
there are Muslims whose commitment to Islam
varies, especially amongst the younger
generations. Therefore no one person can
speak on behalf of such a diverse range of
people.

Historically, according to Prof.
Abdullah Saeed, Muslim communities have
accepted and manifested diversity within their
boundaries, and this is even more the case in
Australia. He tells us that the only conclusion
that can be reached - is that religious leadership
in the Australian Muslim community will be diverse
for the foreseeable future.

Frankly, I don't understand your reasons for
consistently portraying Muslims in such a negative
light. Every since you've been posting on this
Forum I have never read anything positive from you
on this topic. I can't help but wonder why that is so?

In life nothing is black or white, there are usually
shades of grey. But you seem unable to modify your
judgements on this topic. Which puzzles me. It's
almost as if you possess a paranoid view of Islam, yet
many groups including Christian churches as well as
journalists and media commentators have come to the
defence of Muslims. They can't all be brushed aside
as being - "leftist socialists," or whatever other
inappropriate label one sees fit to apply. That's
being simplistic and lazy.

Sympathetic voices committed to tolerance, have also
provided alternative views. I guess that in the long
term, it is as Prof. Abdullah Saeed tells us,
"...most likely that cooperation between Muslims and
other sections of the community will continue,
particularly as Muslims become more involved with
inter-faith and cross-cultural dialogues."
As Pro. Saeed says:
"The Muslim population in Australia is small, representing
less than 1.5 per cent of the population, and because of
this it is vulnerable on many fronts and Muslims, as well
as their non-Muslim fellow Australians, will need to find
the resources to correct negative and misleading
portrayals of Islam."

I wish that just once you would have something positive
to say for a change.

Foxy,
I'm positively astounded at how blinkered you are.

<<I have never read anything positive from you
on this topic. I can't help but wonder why that is so?>>
I have never read anything negative from you
on this topic. I can't help but wonder why that is so?

<<Muslims, as well
as their non-Muslim fellow Australians, will need to find
the resources to correct negative and misleading
portrayals of Islam.>>
How can accurate quotes from the Koran, ahadith and sunnah be misleading?
Are they misleading because they conflict with your narrative?
I refuse to partake in the whitewash of a dangerous ideology.
The evidence for the danger of Islam spans the globe and 1400 years of history.
Why is Islam at the root of so much conflict around the world?
Why are the overwhelming majority of terrorist atrocities committed by followers of Islam?
Britain is now considered a global hub of terrorism (and we're not talking the EDL).
http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/uploads/1278089320islamist_terrorism_preview.pdf
Aren't you even the tiniest bit curious about the connection between Islam and terrorism?
Or don't you see one?
You seem to feel that Islam is anything that any Muslim wants it to be;
most Muslims are peaceful therefore Islam is peaceful.
No Foxy, they happen to be peaceful because they're human.
They're peaceful in spite of Islam.
Churchill best described Islam:
"No stronger retrograde force exists in the world."

Dear Proxy,

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this
one Prox.

Perhaps I am looking at things through rose-coloured
glasses. I've often been accused of doing this.
But that's the way I am. I take people as I find
them. I find it extremely difficult to blame an
entire religion for the atrocities committed by
extremists and radicals among them. I believe that
many Muslims frequently disagree on interpretation
and detail. They have like any other religious
tradition, many theological orientations, legal
schools, and religio-political divisions. They have
their fair share of conservatives, liberals,
traditionalists, modernists, and post-modernists.
Muslims are one of the most ethnically diverse
religious groups in Australia according to Prof.
Saeed. Australian Muslims come from almost all corners
of the world, bringing with them from their home
countries linguistic and cultural differences as well
as their various interpreatations of Islam.

According to Pro. Saeed, complicating this further is the
fact that more than 36 percent of Australian Muslims are
born and bred in this country and their experience of
Islam is within the Australian context - many are
converts to Islam from European and other backgrounds, while
others are second, third and even fourth generation Muslim
Australians for whom there in no other "home."

Therefore generalisations and overly simplistic statements
which may or may not apply to all Australian Muslims I
find, as I said before - problematic. If that in your
opinion is hard to understand, well Prox. that's
something I'll have to learn to live with.

See you on another thread - for me at least, this one
has run it's course and I've said what I wanted to say.
I don't see the point in repeating myself.
I hope you'll understand. I genuinely don't want to
argue any further, and I wish you all the best.

Foxy,
<<I take people as I find them.>>
That’s all very well but it’s no basis for analysis of an ideology.
You’ve met three nice Muslims therefore Islam is a religion of peace?

<<I find it extremely difficult to blame an
entire religion for the atrocities committed by
extremists and radicals among them.>>
When those extremists and radicals consistently and correctly cite their religion to justify their atrocities does it not cause you to reflect on the nature of that religion? To dig deeper?

<< They have like any other religious
tradition, many theological orientations, legal
schools, and religio-political divisions. >>
Which of their “many legal schools” teaches that Sharia law is optional?
Which of their “many legal schools” teaches that Sharia law is subordinate to Western law?

<< Muslims are one of the most ethnically diverse
religious groups in Australia according to Prof. Saeed. >>
This sounds great because, too you, “ethnically diverse” is a warm and fuzzy buzz phrase.
However, it says absolutely nothing at all about Islam.
It merely reflects this country’s open door immigration policy, which has brought into Australia Muslims from many different countries so that they all happen to be here.
It emphatically does not imply that “Islam accepts diversity”, whether Islam does or not.

<< Historically, Muslim communities have
accepted and manifested diversity within their
boundaries>>
Which of the main branches of Islam do you personally consider the most diverse?
The Sunnis or the Shiites?
It’s funny that you see diversity where history shows internecine warfare.
What happens in your mind when you see news reports that Coptic Christians are being persecuted in Egypt, churches being burnt in Indonesia, seven Bahai leaders being jailed for twenty years in Iran or Ahmadiyya Muslims being outlawed in Pakistan?
Does that say diversity to you?
Could Prof. Abdullah Saeed possibly be using buzzwords that resonate with his intended audience?

Prof. Abdullah Saeed may well be genuine.
I hope he is.
However, what he says cannot obscure what is patently clear to see for those who able to step out of their own mindset.