Dear TBC,

Of course father's feelings count in the
raising of their children, that's a given.
However, the topic
of your thread is "Women in the Christian
church," and I was trying to explain their
stance and the reasons for it from a
Catholic women's perspective.

I somehow get the feeling though TBC,
that you're simply stirring here. You really
don't want a discussion at all. You've already
made up your mind on the subject

For people who claim they don't believe in absolutes it amazes me how absolutely sure they are of their dogmas. Amazing really. TBC and co seem very blinded by their beliefs.

Foxy:
<I somehow get the feeling though TBC,
that you're simply stirring here. You really
don't want a discussion at all. You've already
made up your mind on the subject>

And your mind is open on the subject I suppose?

Foxy.. no, I am not 'stirring' as you suggest.

You offered your view, I see another possibility, as I suggested, that the 'female' view you put is merely the result of cultural training, the hegemony of our society, from long back.

Those who serve up the words of Paul & Co, not you, are simply offering a post-event justification for what goes on, cloaked in the arcane mysteries, and unquestionable ones at that, of the 'good book'.

Now, unlike Runner, I am not insisting that this is 'the' answer, simply my current explanation, given my research and experience to date.

But to have Runner cast aspersions on other people and insist that they are being dogmatic, 'blinded by belief', is surely the biggest larf of the century.

So...Pericles.. where were you ? What were you up to ?

The verses in Corinthians and Timothy.. should be balanced with those of Ephesians, but the primary issue there is that for those outside of Christ, and I must, by your confession accept that this includes you, cannot embrace or understand the Biblical pattern for male female relationships.

On the surface, and in the light of contemporary, often marxist inspired PC views about womens roles, the Biblical teaching may seem a tad harsh or outdated, but in reality it is expressing a culture, or promoting one.. and I don't feel the Bible teaches oppression or harshness towards women in the slightest.

So, you won't find me leaping to the 'explanation' of all those verses, they stand by themselves, and our community can work out how far we go in that direction.

Women who hear the Gospel, are not hearing a call to submission to men, but to God, and we blokes also to God.

I find it rather ironic that you criticize my criticism of the Quran which specifically permits the beating of wives for punishment.

The Bible could not be further from this unless it was somehwere East of "East". It truly amazes me that you don't seem to find that such specific unambiguous and violent 'holy' writ to be as repulsive as most of us do. But..this isn't a thread about Islam, though you did refer in that direction.

As for 'nul points' ? :) my points register is full and overflowing, because it was never is not and will never be about 'my' goodness, -rather, about Christs.

PS.. Glenn Beck is giving his 15,000,000 regular viewers a very good dose of solid evangelical, non mormon, Biblical theology lately.. he almost did The Four Spiritual Laws" a day or 2 ago

Someone was once asked how they could be both Christian and feminist and they answered something like, "Christianity is about helping others in need and feminism likewise fights for social justice, how can I not be both?".

The Bible has been tragically misused. There's a general lack of appreciation of the culture and mores of the times in which it was written. For example, Jesus did radical things like chatting to a strange woman at a well. I wonder how successful it would have been if a woman likewise had approached a strange man. I wonder how that would go even nowadays in many ME countries. I'd say that prevailing norms had a lot to do with why there were male apostles and few vocal women, otherwise it would have been an exceedingly short lived ministry.

The people who wrote and subsequently translated the Bible used imagery, allegory, symbolism to make stories memorable to illiterate masses and reflected the socio-cultural context in which they lived.

It is of course the case that those who have held the most social power have used fear of God to subdue others; and we see the same phenomenon in other countries and cultures of "the good woman syndrome" where females lose themselves seeking male approval.
Here's an example:

http://www.eewc.com/CFT/v25n4a1.htm

Biblical teaching doesn't gel with white capitalist males in power. It's only fairly recently been acknowledged that Jesus himself was not Caucasian. Therefore, if the patriarchy has somehow been able to bend things to justify social oppression and economically exploitative activities, as well as the outright abuses that have gone on towards women and children in families living under male "servant-leadership" (whatever that means) then I am pretty sure that churches can adapt to minor aberrations like women being treated as equal citizens.

No organization can be perfect since all of them are created by imperfect humans. We can only as individuals do the best that we can and continue working on our spiritual self-improvement plan.

*Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins. (1 Peter 4:8 )