How very sweet of you to have missed me, Boaz.

>>No old son.. I don't see a contradiction in what I said<<

Of course you don't.

So long as it is the Bible we are talking about, and not the Qur'an, you can accept any number of totally contradictory pronouncements, can you not.

And you certainly haven't lost your dazzling sidestep in the last few weeks, have you.

>>You ask "Are they servants or are they leaders".. Let's let the Lord himself answer that eh?<<

The question that I asked concerned women. Specifically. Check it out.

Unfortunately, the Lord, in your excerpt, is talking exclusively to blokes (although I suspect that women might be serving at the table, don't you reckon?), and metaphorically to boot. He is simply pointing out that pride is a bit of a no-no, where the Lord is concerned. Humility, and all that.

So "nul points" for that little effort, I'm afraid.

No comments on the instructions (Corinthians and Timothy) from your mate Paul, I notice? I thought they would at least rate some form of rebuttal.

How disappointing.

It is poor form, by the way, to infer contempt of the Church from my observations.

>>I think you, Pericles, are a bit in the same boat but with slightly less bitterness.(in your case I think it's contempt (for the Church))<<

I dislike hypocrisy, and I dislike what religion - and the Church - does to some people. However, I also know and respect a bunch of people who find great comfort in their religion and in their Church. Any criticism therefore tends to be specific, not general.

I know that you would prefer that I fit into one of your simplistic categories, Boaz, but this ain't one of them.

mjpb... I delved into your great works as suggested. Thank you.

For those readers who did not go there, here is a 'Dummy's Guide To The Real Role Of The World and God's Place In It'.

"We need to understand that Christians believe God to be the essence of divine omnipotence. To put it crudely, He doesn’t make mistakes. When He became Incarnate as a human being, He did so at a precise and exact moment in human history, which has been planned from all eternity. From the beginning, God had chosen that there would be a Jewish people, among whom His divine Son would be born. Their own priestly traditions would form part of the background and culture which would help them — and others — to see and know Him. Every detail about the Incarnation was known in the mind of God. He was born into the fullness of time".

I'm sorry, but if that is the best you can do, it's fallen on stony ground here.

The story you adhere to, seems to be more of an excuse for doing nothing, ever.

We'll just have to disagree on the credibility of your beliefs, while I acknowledge your right to keep them.

But I would not be able to object quite so much, if there was no spill-over into the 'other' world, the one you seem to dismiss as being irrelevant, and your mob kept to themselves, harming only those who elected to sign up to 'the joke'.

Sadly, that is not the case. We are imposed upon in our daily lives by the most incredible of beliefs, based on myth, and poor translations, never mind the power seeking incursions of the last 2000 years.

Still, its good to know that God created The Blue Cross to write on OLO and say whatever He wants to through me too.

Surely, it must work like that?

continued post

This nonsense is almost not worthy of comment, but certainly highlights the huge problems in the Catholic Church and continual mythical justifications for poor behaviour. If women are so 'evil' it does not say much about the Creator nor the God contrived to legitimise past deeds and inaction in relation to abuse of children.

Why is ordination of women evil but protecting child abusers perfectly okay?.

Beats me particularly given religion bases itself on the belief that human beings are nothing more than sinners, and if this is so why not allow 'evil' women to be preachers. They could do no worse than the male sinners,some may even do better in providing comfort and guidance to others.

At least there are some Churches who have accepted women as equal partners in the human species and we can only hope this trend continues.

Dear TBC,

Why do women stay in the Church?
One word - perseverance!

Besides -

Women don't give up that easily.
They like winning, especially when
they know they're right, and don't give
up until they succeed! My mother taught me
that!

Perhaps also, this is because most women
are parents and mothers and
they have a feel for the
task or nurturing faith in the next
generation. They are also aware of how
alienated their daughters are from a
church that does not treat women as equals.

Perhaps they also feel the need for the
renewal of priestly ministry and that the
question of the ordination of women cannot
be side-stepped, no matter how often the
hierarchy attempt to wash their hands of this
issue.

The papal teaching about the exclusion of women
from the ordained ministry has not by the way
been received by the faithful, just like the
teaching on contraception. Church teaching must
be authenticated by the Catholic community.
The church must eventually accept what is proposed.
If a teaching has not been received by the faithful
over a reasonable period of time, then it can be
argued that it is not the teaching of the church.

This is certainly the case regarding the prohibition
of contraception, and I believe it will also be
reasonably applied to the question of the ordination
of women.

I have no doubt whatsoever, it's only a matter of time.
Why should women leave - and let the old neanderthals
win... That is not going to happen!

mjpb:
<The relevant Churches believe that God has a particular spiritual function for men whilst explicitly confirming the equality and respectworthiness of women>

Correction, mjpb, 'The relevant churches "BELIEVED"...'
They "BELIEVED" this because they had little understanding of the natural world or their place in it, and so invented Gods and other beliefs to make sense of their mostly short, vicious and senseless lives.
They "BELIEVED" in male ascendency because they lived 2,000 years ago in a male-dominated world. Their religious beliefs (rationalisations) and rituals OF COURSE reflected the norms of that benighted culture.
While our society today is still patriarchal, we have made some modest and lop-sided progress since then in terms of equality and quality of life. Yet we are, some of us, aware of the various ancient prejudices that still structure our thought and haunt our culture.

As far as I'm concerned, I verily believe that these primitive belief systems are delusional, based on wishful thinking, and constitute a real and present danger to our actual material existence.
Their is no reliable evidence to substantiate the crude religious constructions we place on our existential condition.
Even if we claim some kind of epiphany, that can still not be reliably interpreted since we so consummately twit ourselves. Neither should our castles in the air be used to evade responsibility in the here and now---which is precisely what religion is used for!

Part Two of my pjmb post...undone by the post limits.

Pelican surely speaks 'the truth' as does Squeers, in my view anyway.

The BHP female CEO belongs to this world. The female priest belongs to this world too.

I happily concede that you find that prospect an abomination, and would not condone it, ever.

But another poster here has pointed out that churches are happy to sway with the breeze of the day to keep 'relevant', and just as usury is not only no longer a sin, but the driving force of modern capitalism, supported wholeheartedly by Christians everywhere, so too it is possible for women to 'move up' a notch or two within the church machinery.

If that change cannot be entertained, then secular society needs to seriously reappraise the many privileges granted to religions, and seriously question whether we can afford to have such a large beast undermining the evolving structure of society, as it is at the moment with this blind adherence to a fanciful notion of female subordinate servitude.

No doubt mjpb, you are still fuming over women riding bicycles, voting, holding bank accounts in their own right, and keeping their own names should they elect to marry?

We'll all be rooned!

Foxy, a good try but sorry, it does not wash.

What about fathers feelings for their children? Don't they count in upbringing?

"Perhaps also, this is because most women are parents and mothers and
they have a feel for the task or nurturing faith in the next generation. They are also aware of how alienated their daughters are from a church that does not treat women as equals".

I am afraid that par' just sounds like an acceptance of the hegemonic structure of society... which would negate your 'perseverance' and replace it with 'unquestioning tradition'.

Sadly, the Vatican seems to hold considerable sway over too many Africans, who decline to use contraceptives, particularly condoms, as the result of the Pope's infallible 'teaching'.

One has only to read 'the old neanderthals' on OLO to know they have already won, via their all-too accommodating wives.