Dear Foxy,

Live and let live is a very different attitude from the missionary one. Unfortunately missionary religions are not content to live and let live. Therefore others want them to abandon their missionising.

However, pushing tolerance and acceptance to those who follow the missionary religions becomes a missionary action in itself. A missionary wanted to push his religion on me, and I objected. He accused me of wanting of being a missionary myself. I did not want him to abandon his religion as that would cut off his links with family and community. However, I did want him to abandon any missionising that others neither requested nor wanted. In asking him to change his attitude I was asking him to abandon a precept at the core of his religion.

You used the expression, true religion. 'True religion' seems to me to be only what the person who follows the 'true religion' feels to be true. I don't think there is such a thing as true religion.

You wrote: "What some have done in the name of religion, projecting their neuroses, even perpetrating evil on the world, to my mind, doesn't make religion as a mystical phenomenon invalid."

I think missionary religion is nothing but projecting neuroses onto others. It's not even one's own neurosis. It is somebody else's neurosis accepted in the name of faith. Although the beginnings of the concept of original sin were before Augustine he was the one who got it adopted as Christian doctrine. Augustine was a neurotic, guilt-ridden individual who succeeded in pushing his neurosis on others. “We are all corrupt” and “We are all born in sin.” are expressions of that insanity.

Mysticism does not have to be connected with any religion.

Dear grateful,

You wrote: “at least being aware that He [Allah] is aware of all that we do.

That is asking all to accept your religion. That is more than just wanting people to be informed unless you do not expect other people to accept an omniscient entity. Is it ok to be an atheist?

I don't really think there is any doubt that paedophilia is a mainstream part of contemporary Islam and that arranged child marriages are quite common in many Muslim countries.

David f & Co,

If it makes you feel better about yourselves to mention something bad about Christianity every time somebody brings you face to face with the "dark side" of Islam by all means do so. At least you don’t deny that Islam has a dark side which is progress of a sort,

Foxy,

I have to agree with David f. Evangelising religions all too often do not allow for live and let live.

Exhibit A for this propostion is grateful's evasion over the free speech issue and his BS excuses. Like all good little Muslims he is at heart a totalitarian who would crush freedom of expression.

I wonder what he would do to gays.

<<You wrote: “at least being aware that He [Allah] is aware of all that we do.

That is asking all to accept your religion. That is more than just wanting people to be informed unless you do not expect other people to accept an omniscient entity. Is it ok to be an atheist?>>

No. It is a poor attempt to paraphrase a hadith describing the spiritual state of the believer in their relation to Allah. It is part of a longer hadith, referred to as the Gibril Hadith which describes an occasion in which a stranger interrupts a gathering of the Prophet and his followers. He entered the room and proceeded to sit in front of the Prophet and quiz him on the fundamental tenets of Islam. When the stranger leaves the gathering, the Prophet is ask who the person is and he replies that it was the Angel Gibril.

Here is the part that i poorly paraphrased:

<<.... Then he further asked, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "to worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot see Him, then be sure that He is seeing you."....>> http://www.livingislam.org/o/gh_e.html

Someone who worships Allah as if he sees him is ever mindful of Allah and does not breath without remembrance of Allah. Those of us who have not attained this level of imaan (faith) should at least be away that he sees us. If you read the whole hadith you’ll see that it refers to Muslims.

The reference i gave in the previous post makes clear that we do not impose our religion to others. Here it is in full:

<<Say: O disbelievers! (1) I worship not that which ye worship; (2) Nor worship ye that which I worship. (3) And I shall not worship that which ye worship. (4) Nor will ye worship that which I worship. (5) Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. (6)>> (chap 109, http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/)

Dear stevenlmeyer,

Certainly Islam has a dark side. I find AGIR objectionable in harping on Islam's dark side while making excuses for any of the ugliness of his own religion.

Religion is not separate from politics. With the exception of Turkey and Afghanistan all the Islamic countries were colonies of the imperialist European Christian nations. Those nations colonised and ruled with brutality and arrogance. Part of Islam's anger is the remembrance of that. Those hurts last for a long time.

I have just read a book called "Inside Jihadism." The author writes of the Muslim intellectuals who promote Jihad. He also mentions the 'revolutionary, utopian, religious intellectuals' of Christianity who disappeared in the late seventeenth century. The Jihadists are the reincarnation of the 'revolutionary, utopian, religious intellectuals' of Christianity.

As far as I am concerned the WW2 Holocaust remains applied Christianity. AGIR is a dirty pot calling a kettle black.

Dear Davidf,

I don’t know about the pot calling the kettle black part, but anyone who talks of :

“all the Islamic countries were colonies of the imperialist European Christian nations. Those nations colonised and ruled with brutality and arrogance. Part of Islam's anger is the remembrance of that. Those hurts last for a long time.”

Yet, neglects to mention the colonialism and brutality of Islamic entities in Africa, Asia and Europe.

And then talks of:

“Jihadists are the reincarnation of the 'revolutionary, utopian, religious intellectuals' of Christianity”(as if Jihadism only started in the 17th Century!)

Is either exceedingly one eyed, or, has been smoking pot

Dear Foxy,

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord [p. 60].” Mien Kampf – sort of sealed the Hitler – Christian thing for me.

And davidf is right about Germany's very Christian population aiding and abetting in the Holocaust as did other populations across Europe. However I have a slightly more nuanced view of the reasons than the “the centuries of Jew hatred and the unquestioning respect for authority promoted by Christianity.” offered by him.

There is something quite remarkable about the 20th century Germans and I have recently had the occasion to experience a little of it.

I recall somewhere you said you lived in Victoria and if this is correct might I invite you to get along to the NGV to view a remarkable collection of masterpieces from the Städel Museum in Frankfurt.

I was deeply struck by the degree to which the later works of German artists from the 1920's onward was so dark in comparison to the mid to late 19th century works. Actually this is not an accurate description, more lacking is life's spark.

The Monet's and other French works from similar schools were positively radiant in comparison.

Was the WW1 so devastating to the German psyche? It certainly was to Max Beckmann whose works show a real disintegration of spirit.

I remember Claudia Lady Bird Johnson's quote “Art is the window to man's soul. Without it, he would never be able to see beyond his immediate world; nor could the world see the man within.” and it has never been truer for me.

In this case it was Art is the window to a country's soul and the view is quite disconcerting.

To fundamentalism, it is most of the things described by posters above, it is also a gift of deep security to those whose lives require it and a bulwark against a very uncertain world.