Steven you ask "Is it only attacks on Islam that bring out this desire to in you to some how "level the playing field"? If so, why?"

There have been no attacks on Christianity by Islamic people on OLO as far as I can remember which is why one is more likely to see atheists in particular, point to corresponding Christian scriptures or identify the 'cherry picking' as it suits a one-sided argument.

It seems an Aussie trait to defend the underdog if the reasoning is not sound or to feel sympathy with Muslims who get a bit sick of being tarred with the 'terrorist' brush.

One does not have to be either a Christianophobe or an Islamophobe, one would hope most of us would aspire to being a radicalophobe.

Dear Pelly

you said:

"There have been no attacks on Christianity by Islamic people on OLO as far as I can remember"

Only one who is not a Christian would say that :) without the belief background, you would not even know when it is being attacked in some cases. (not all)

There have been many..how about Ruby Hamads effort "the bible records numerous commands by God to kill and rape" remember that one ? :) I gave her repeated opportunities to apologise and retract..and she would not..
I tried.. very hard.. to give her an 'out'....but she refused.

Would it suprise you to think one might take sufficient offense to such repeated and wilful vilification, to launch a complaint? (rrt)

STEVEN. for the record..I welcome Christianity being criticized.

If you want to say "according to the Bible, God commanded the Israelites to commit total genocide on a number of tribes" I won't argue..it's absolutely true.

I have actually noticed rare occassions where Pericles has stood up against the vilification of Christianity on one of the Atheist threads.. I was in the sin bin at the time so I guess my absense made it easier for him :)

Al
I don't remember the Hamads comment and I bow to your superior knowledge of the Bible and of Christianity overall. I cannot comment on any commands to 'kill' and 'rape' by God - if you say they don't exist I take your word for it.

There are some passages in the Bible and Koran that do give one pause for thought. Some have been mentioned in various threads such as the 'genocide' one you raised and various ones about women. Some of the language is not surprising given the barbaric times these texts were written. As a Christian of course you cannot see these texts the same way as an atheist ie. Bible and Koran, as simply creations of man.

I don't see this as villification - it is just a different viewpoint and discourse of that nature should not be stifled. On that I do agree with you Al.

Dear David F.,

You seem to have misunderstood my post,
and my reference to "true" religion.
As for missionaries - that was why I
made that reference. Anyway back to
"true" religion.

I was referring to the genuine religious
impulse, the internal experience. Because
our religious institutions have
far too often become handmaidens of the
status quo, while the genuine religious
experience is anything but that.
It's a force by which we burst out from
what is cold and calcified into a higher
mode of being. Spirituality is an inner
fire, a mystical sustenance that feeds
our souls. The mystical journey drives
us into ourselves, to a sacred flame at
our center. The purpose of the religious
experience is to develop the eyes by which
we see this inner flame, and our capacity
to live its mystery. Religion means "to
bind back." Its purpose is to turn back
into ourselves, to the well inside from
which we are endlessly creative.

Anyway, you are entitled to your opinions.
And as you said in an earlier post -
what is right for you, may not be right
for me, and vice versa. We can criticize,
religions left right and center. The fact
remains though that for many people, there
are still gaps in their understanding that
science can never fill. On the ultimately
important questions - of the meaning and
purpose of life and the nature of morality...

Few citizens of modern societies would
utterly deny the possibility of some higher
power in the universe, some supernatural,
transcendental realm that lies beyond the
boundaries of ordinary experience, and in this
fundamental sense religion is probably here
to stay.

Why do I counter criticism of Islam with mention of Christian atrocities? To me the most significant event of religious hatred is the Christian Holocaust inspired by years of Christian hate for Jews and climaxing with the Christian attempt at extermination. Nothing Islam has done or is likely to do will equal that. Christians tend to see it as just a German aberration.

csteele wrote of the darkness of the post WW1 German spirit as shown in German art. That darkness existed. However,the German effort in WW2 was a multinational effort in which many people of many nations joined in.

I see the Holocaust as more a product of Christian darkness than of German darkness. Japan was an ally of Germany but gave refuge to Jews who could get there in contrast to many western Christian nations not allied with Germany who turned away Jewish refugees. They were not going to exterminate Jews, but they were not going to counter the extermination by giving refuge.

Germany actually was not the worst although that’s where the impetus came from. France eagerly cooperated with the Germans in deporting Jews to the camps. France was a country divided in two by the French Revolution. The Catholic church, the nobility and other members of the conservative camp opposed the revolution. Vichy got them back in power. They vented their anger on the Jews. Communicants of Orthodox churches also had a hatred for Jews promoted by their religion. To a large extent Ukrainians composed the guards of the camps. Vichy France, the Ukraine and Austria were all more unrelenting in their hatred than Germany. The pope kept silent when the Jews of Rome were rounded up.

Some books by Catholics telling of the Christian role – “German Catholics and Hitler’s Wars” by Gordon Zahn, “Constantine’s Sword" by James Carroll, "A Cross too Heavy: Egenio Pacelli" by Paul O’Shea, “The Anguish of the Jew” by Edward Flannery who wrote, "the Jewish people did not find in the Christian churches an ally and defender but one of their most zealous detractors and oppressors."

Look up http://www.therefinersfire.org/christian_apology.htm

Dear Foxy,

I know people have spiritual feelings, and it touches something deep in them. It gives a feeling that they are at one with something outside of themselves. So they say, and I believe they are sincere. Yet I don’t have those feelings.

This afternoon I was at St. Stephen’s Cathedral and heard six young women with beautiful voices singing. I was very moved and cried. http://www.belladivaopera.com.au/home.cfm is their website. You can hear something approximating their voices, but you have to hear them in person.

A lot of other things besides music, my family and descendents move me deeply. Mathematics, nature, reading the narrative of history, reading poetry etc.

However, I don’t have that religious feeling. I read about religion because I am fascinated by the way it can apparently reach deep into people. Science has tried to explain religion from various standpoints. I eagerly read those books which are based on anthropology, sociology, evolutionary biology etc. Right now I am reading "The Story of God" by Robert Winston who is a medical scientist. He brings in the possibility that religious feelings have a genetic component. There will be many more books on the subject, and I will enjoy reading them.

You wrote: “The fact remains though that for many people, there are still gaps in their understanding that science can never fill. On the ultimately important questions - of the meaning and purpose of life and the nature of morality...”

Science cannot fill many of the gaps in our understanding. However, that does not mean that religion has answers. I accept that our understanding will always be limited. I don’t think life has any intrinsic meaning and purpose. Morality just seems to be a way that our particular society has worked out as a reasonable way to deal with each other. It is part of our culture that has evolved.

I used to be very religiously observant when I was young. However, it was with a feeling that it was something I was supposed to do. However, I never had what I think you are talking about.