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The Forum > General Discussion > What is fundamentalisms?

What is fundamentalisms?

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David F,
<<Dear grateful,

You have cited no evidence. You have told stories about the honesty and goodness of Mohammed. There are similar stories about Jesus, Buddha, Moses and other religious leaders. Stories are not evidence.>>

We have the testimony of Abu Sufyan describing the Prophet's Prophet's character...at a time when Abu sufyan was one of the his fiercest enemies. The testimony was made before the Roman emperor Heraclius, who had just recveive a letter from Muhammad inviting him to Islam. For more detail about the context see http://www.rasoulallah.net/v2/document.aspx?lang=en&doc=1877
under "4. The Envoy to Caesar, King of Rome"

<<Al-Bukhâri, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, narrated that Hercules sent for Abu Sufyan and his companions, who happened to be trading in Ash-Sham, Jerusalem. That was during the truce that had been concluded between the polytheists of Quraish and the Messenger of Allâh [pbuh]. Hercules, seated amongst his chiefs of staff, asked, "Who amongst you is the nearest relative to the man who claims to be a Prophet?" "I (Abu Sufyan) replied: ‘I am the nearest relative to him from amongst the group.’ So they made me sit in front of him and made my companions sit behind me. Then he called upon his translator and said (to him). ‘Tell them (i.e. Abu Sufyan’s companions) that I am going to ask him (i.e. Abu Sufyan) regarding that men who claims to be a Prophet. So if he tells a lie, they should contradict him (instantly)’. By Allâh had I not been afraid that my companions would consider me a liar, I would have told lies", Abu Sufyan later said.
Abu Sufyan’s testimony went as follows: "Muhammad descends from a noble family. No one of his family happened to assume kingship. His followers are those deemed weak with numbers ever growing. He neither tells lies nor betrays others, we fight him and he fights us but with alternate victory. He bids people to worship Allâh Alone with no associate, and abandon our fathers’ beliefs. He orders us to observe prayer, honesty, abstinence and maintain strong family ties."

cont...
Posted by grateful, Friday, 13 August 2010 11:40:28 PM
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cont..

<<"Hercules, on hearing this testimony, turned to his translator bidding him to communicate to us his following impression which reveals full conviction in the truthfulness of Muhammad’s Prophethood: ‘I fully realize that Prophets come from noble families; he does not affect any previous example of Prophethood. Since none of his ancestors was a monarch, we cannot then allege that he is a man trying to reclaim his father’s monarchy. So long as he does not tell lies to people, he is for the more reason, immune to telling lies as regards Allâh. Concerning his followers being those deemed weak with numbers ever growing, it is something that goes in agreement with questions of Faith until this latter assumes its full dimensions geographically and demographically. I have understood that no instance of apostasy has as yet appeared among his followers, and this points to the bliss of Faith that finds its abode in the human heart. Betrayal, as I see, is alien to him because real Prophets hold betrayal in abhorrence. Bidding worship of Allâh with no associates, observance of prayer, honesty and abstinence and prohibition of paganism are traits bound to subject to him all my possessions. I have already known that a Prophet must arise but it has never occurred to me that he will be an Arab from among you. If I was sure I would be faithful to him, I might hope to meet him, and if I were with him, I would wash his feet.’

cont..
Posted by grateful, Friday, 13 August 2010 11:42:30 PM
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cont..
<<Hercules then requested that the Prophet’s letter be read. The observations of the emperor and finally the definite and clear-cut exposition of the Islamic message could not but create a tense atmosphere amongst the clergy present at the court. We were ordered to go out." Abu Sufyan said, "While coming out, I said to my companions, ‘The matter of Ibn Abi Kabshah (i.e. Muhammad [pbuh]) has become so prominent that even the king of Banu Al-Asfar (i.e. the Romans) is afraid of him.’ So I continued to believe that Allâh’s Messenger [pbuh] would be victorious, till Allâh made me embrace Islam." The king did not embrace Islam — for it was differently ordained. However, the Muslim envoy was returned to Madinah with the felicitations of the emperor.>>
Posted by grateful, Friday, 13 August 2010 11:43:14 PM
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Dear Grateful,

Those documents you cite were copied by scribes as they were before printing was developed. In copying scribes can add or delete anything they like. A Muslim scribe could add such material as you have cited.

In Josephus' works there are mentions of Jesus. Actually there is no historical evidence for Jesus' existence. Presumably Christian scribes copying those works added that material to produce some evidence for Jesus' existence.

I come from the United States. One of the stories told about George Washington is that he chopped down a cherry tree on his father's property. When his father asked if he did it, he answered that he could not tell a lie and that he did chop down the cherry tree. This story came from a book about George Washington by Parson Weems, and there was absolutely no truth to the story. Weems wanted to make Washington a saintly figure.

It is reasonable to think stories about Mohammed have also been made up.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 14 August 2010 9:20:53 AM
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The hadith comes from Sahih al-Bukhari:

Sahih al-Bukhari (Arabic: &#1589;&#1581;&#1610;&#1581; &#1575;&#1604;&#1576;&#1582;&#1575;&#1585;&#1610;&#8206;), as it is commonly referred to as, is one of the six canonical hadith collections of Sunni Islam. These prophetic traditions, or hadith, were collected by the Muslim scholar Muhammad ibn Ismail al-Bukhari (810–870) (about 200 years after Muhammad died) and compiled during his lifetime. Most Muslims view this as their most trusted collection of hadith and it is considered the most authentic book after the Qur'an.[1] Sahih translates as authentic or correct.[2] {see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahih_al-Bukhari for a detailed account of the al Buhkari}

To be able to reject the evidence as you have done requires evidence that the source is not reliable. But if it appears in Al Bukhari's collection then i know that i will be able to find the chain of narrations and the persons narrating the hadith will be considered reliable (eg in memory and trustworthiness). You do not have grounds to reject the hadith.
Posted by grateful, Saturday, 14 August 2010 2:41:31 PM
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Dear grateful,

I don't see that we can go any farther.

You believe. I don't.

It's that simple.

Best wishes.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 14 August 2010 9:17:40 PM
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