“Many traditional Islamic theologians and Qur'an commentators argue that violent material, such as sura 9, abrogates more relatively tolerant material such as sura 109. This is not a newly-minted view "cherry-picked" by Osama bin Laden; it is in fact a very ancient view. When discussing why Muhammad didn't begin sura 9 with the customary invocation bismillah ar-rahman ar-rahim, "in the name of Allah, the compassionate, the merciful," an intriguing answer comes from a Qur'an commentary that is still highly valued today in the Islamic world, Tafsir al-Jalalayn. This is a fifteenth-century work by the renowned imams Jalal al-Din Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Mahalli (1389-1459) and Jalal al-Din ‘Abd al-Rahman ibn Abi Bakr al-Suyuti (1445-1505). The invocation, suggests this tafsir, “is security, and [Sura 9] was sent down when security was removed by the sword.”
“Security’s removal by the sword meant specifically the end of many treaties the Muslims had made with non-Muslims. Another still-influential Qur'an commentator, Ibn Kathir (1301-1372) quotes an earlier authority, Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim, to establish that the Verse of the Sword, sura 9:5 ("slay the unbelievers wherever you find them") “abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term.” He adds from another authority: “No idolater had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara’ah was revealed.” And yet another early commentator, Ibn Juzayy (d. 1340) agrees that one of this verse’s functions is “abrogating every peace treaty in the Qur’an.”…continued

Continued…“This idea is crucial as a guide to the relationship of the Qur’an’s peaceful passages to its violent ones. Suras 16, 29, 52, 73, and 109 — the sources of many of the Qur'an's verses of peace and tolerance — are all Meccan. That means that many Muslims, guided by commentators such as those above and the imams who teach from them, see these suras only in light of what was revealed later in Medina. Being the last or next-to-last sura revealed, sura 9 is generally understood as being the Qur’an’s last word on jihad, and all the rest of the book — including the “tolerance verses” — must be read in its light.”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/10/the-islamic-doctrine-of-abrogation.html

DEar Proxy...

what you brought forth then was *dangerously* close to 'facts' :) in fact .. to any but the most bigoted and stubbornly resistant prejudiced person.. it would be a very compelling argument.

But to those who see more value in focusing on a minor error, such as our dear friend and Pedant Pericles regarding something longgg ago about a Swedish pastor, well.. that speaks for itself.

The issue of the Swedish pastor was that he was charged and 'convicted' under swedish hate laws..and sentenced to 3 months prison. The initial report (there were many) contained information which would suggest that he has been jailed, as he would have been if the appeal was not successful.
My interest in that story was to highlight the level of persecution of Christians by the Christaphobic hordes of politically correct police. As per the Bishop of Herefordshire.. fined $90,000 ish, for rejecting a homosexual applicant for a job.

But our pedant for political correctness Pericles.. appears blind to such core issues..and prefers to try to derail a report of a terrifying legal disaster, overt persecution and oppression... and cheaply tries to deflect it into 'you missed a fact'.... sigh :)

With that kind of 'alamo' mentality, your compelling arguments (Proxy) are wasted..but who knows.. there will for sure be some (Perhaps Dreamy?) who benefit from your points.

Pericles.. I'm still waiting for your take on the UK economy.

To me, *Proxy's* comments go to the issue that there are those in the Islamic world who are of the harsh variety when it comes to matters of dealing with those of other than their own persuasion and in matters of getting their own way when dealing with everyone else more generally.

I agree with something of the view expressed by Christopher Hitchens in that there can be something of a connection between totalitarianism and the manner of practice and expression of certain belief systems.

..

But as informed as these comments are, they are narrow in the sense that they do not obviate the fact that there is a variety of interpretations when it comes to the matter of so called "abrogation" amongst Muslims, and this is no doubt in part reflected by the fact that there are many different versions of the same thing.

Ahmadiyya was mentioned earlier which reminds me that in Indonesia, from memory, they have been restricted in practice by presidential decree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya_Muslim_Community

" ... The motto of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is “Love for All, Hatred for None” ... "

" ... The third article relates to the belief in all Divine Scriptures given to their respective Prophets. These include the Books believed in by Orthodox Muslims as well, namely:[8]

* The Torah of Moses (Tawrat)[8]
* The Gospels of Jesus (Injeel)[8]
* The Psalms of David (Zaboor)[8]
* The Scrolls of Abraham (Suhaf)[8]
* The Qur’an of Muhammad [8] ... "

" ... Asides from the belief in all Prophets in the Old Testament of the Bible, in Jesus, John the Baptist and in Muhammad, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community also regards Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, Confucius and Ghulam Ahmad as prophets. Ahmadis believe in Muhammad to be the final law-bearing prophet but teach the continuity of prophethood.[1] ... "

" ... According to some estimates, the country with the largest percentage of Ahmadis is the African republic of Ghana.[34] The country with the most Ahmadis is Pakistan, where they number approximately 4 million. ... "

Still, if *BoazY et al* were to suggest that on balance there are more Muslims in the world predisposed due to indoctrination to violent barbarism and savagery than those of the benevolent persuasion, I would suggest that at times of crisis and war that the Human condition is such as to make the majority of us inclined to react aggressively if pressed or threatened, irrespective of whether that is real or imagined/perceived.

I personally think that the majority of people are passive when there is Peace and hostile when there is War.

Thinking people who can respond with a greater range of reasonable and rational expression at times of stress are in the minority in my opinion.

So, perhaps the question that is posed is whether or not the Muslim majority adopt the "Verses of the Sword" at times of war/crisis/stress ala *Proxy’s* earlier comments, or conversely are the majority of the “calmer” variety?

Well, without a doubt there is conflict in the world, with all of the so-called “terror” groups, but it does not appear that the “Muslim Hoard” has been summoned as of yet.

..

Further, I would suggest as follows, to slightly modify an old saying:

" The advocate opponent of my enemy is my friend,"

and that at times like this it is better to demonstrate virtuous behavior and to entreat those that have an ear to listen to us, rather then try to smear the entire Islamic world with the sins of the violent minority.

For *BoazY* especially there is a Christian saying/quote from one of the Bible Books that speaks of the manner of *Arch Angel Michael's* dealing with the *Beast* - something about not dealing up a railing accusation. I think something of that is appropriate here.

And also that said by Nietche, being something about those who gaze into the pit too long are at risk of becoming that which they observe.

Something like that ...

DreamOn,
<<And also that said by Nietche, being something about those who gaze into the pit too long are at risk of becoming that which they observe.>>
Maybe Nietzsche learnt this from reading of the experiences of the Banu Qurayza tribe.
In 627ad the Holy Prophet Mohammed, messenger of Allah, peace be unto him, had 400 to 900 boys and men of the tribe beheaded and thrown into a hole in the ground.
They certainly became that which they had observed in the pit.
1400 years later, his intrepid followers are still beheading infidels and apologists are still DreamingOn about the prophet of peace and the glories of Islam.
Nobody is smearing the entire Islamic world.
The entire Islamic world smears itself by venerating the murderous, marauding, madman Mohammed.