Pericles,

Re your post of Tuesday, 25 May 2010 6:02:30 PM

Are you saying that, yes indeed, a belief system can be SIMULTANEOUSLY a religion AND a totalitarian ideology?

If that is your position then I have obviously misunderstood some of your previous posts and I apologise.

NB: I am not asking you to commit as to whether any particular belief system is in fact simultaneously a religion and a totalitarian ideology. I am merely asking whether you believe this state of affairs is possible in principle.

Whether, or not, a particular belief system is in fact simultaneously a religion and a totalitarian ideology is a separate discussion.

If I have again misunderstood you, if you are saying it is impossible for a belief systems to be simultaneously a religion and a totalitarian ideology please explain why this is impossible.

ALGOREisRICH,

Numerous Mosque-attending Muslims have assured me they believe that the koran is literally true. Most of them believe the same of the ahadith.

If that's what Muslims tell me I am inclined to believe them ahead of Pericles.

However I have found that Muslims are divided on the question of abrogation.

Sometimes belief in the ahadith produces hilarious results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvMEe_GHOXs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG66moSHTjk&feature=related

Obviously Monty Python is alive and well and living in Palestine. Ahmad al-Muzain is an infinitely better actor then John Cleese.

Christopher Hitchens expressed a view on the issue of Theocracies/Totalitarian regimes in regards to them equally being the "Enemy of Freedom" as he put it.

..

I had a look at the slide shows of Major Nidal at the suggestion of He of Many Names and extracted a couple of bits:

Rule of Abrogation

"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not Allah Hath power over all things?" Surah 2:106

"When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not. "Surah 16:101

..

Example: Jihad-rule of Abrogation
In Mecca Muslims were not permitted to defend themselves/fight. There only job was to deliver the message (peaceful verses)
Emigration to Medina: self defense was allowed
Then offensive fighting was allowed
Later verses abrogated former ie: peaceful verses no longer apply
Indeed at one point Islamic empire spanned from Morocco/Spain to the Border of India/China

Proxy.. I recommend you don't try to *prove* the bleeding obvious to people who are bigoted :) it just doesn't work. The better approach is to raise questions and let them discover by themselves I think.
But I enjoy reading your work and would value you highly in a public debate with 'them' to be on my side/team.

Steven :) indeed... indeed.

Strange how much sense your post makes

//If that's what Muslims tell me I am inclined to believe them ahead of Pericles.//

Yes..I often wonder what Pericles sources are :) he seldom gives any because he is too busy attacking and crucifiying the messenger rather than the message. But..he has his uses :) like picking me up on factual errors.. (sometimes)

//However I have found that Muslims are divided on the question of abrogation.//

Yes Steven.. so true. A study of that division would produce interesting results.

a)Within the demographic spread of age and sect (Islamic) within a western democracy.
b)Across the spread of rich powerful Muslim countries compared to weak demographic minority countries such as Australia.

I am not a betting man, but if I was..I'd place quite a bit on "The powerful Muslim countries are more likely to agree with abrogation"

It isn't a perfect science though.. depends on Sect quite a bit.

Sunni's yes
Shia yes
Sufi yes
Ahmadiya ? not sure..but they are the only Muslim sect (considered a heresy by the others) who have actually renounced violent Jihad.
In all cases, it would depend to a degree on which 'school' they (Sunni's)followed
Hanbali
Hanifi
Maliki
Shafi
http://science.jrank.org/pages/9937/Law-Islamic-Jurisprudence-Sources-Law.html

You say this, but you don't really believe it, do you [insert current pseudonym here]?

>>Yes..I often wonder what Pericles sources are :) he seldom gives any because he is too busy attacking and crucifiying the messenger rather than the message. But..he has his uses :) like picking me up on factual errors.. (sometimes)<<

Be honest for once. You absolutely hate it when I point out that the "facts" upon which you base your posts are incorrect. More so, because it happens so often.

Remember the Swedish pastor you claimed had been imprisoned, when in fact he had been acquitted? You rambled on for post after post, trying to avoid acknowledging the fact - eventually you simply stopped posting, rather than confess you had got it wrong.

A practice you still indulge in, I notice. When challenged on your motives the "Barking" thread, you tried for a while to defend the BNP, but eventually had to change the subject. If you hadn't got your facts so egregiously wrong in the first place, you might just have got away with it.

I guess the most puzzling aspect of it all to me is how you rationalize it on a daily basis. Surely it must occur to you sometimes that you are actually fooling no-one but yourself?

LOL Pericles

I don't know about the interchanges between you and ALGOREisRICH. But given your tendency to deny inconvenient facts, introduce red herrings and perform verbal gymnastics your last post has an element of a pot calling a kettle black.

You come across as a politically correct robot

Actually, that doesn't even capture it. You come across as a parody of a bot programmed to be politically correct.

Posted by *StevenLMeyer* Wednesday, 26 May 2010 9:51:27 PM
" ... However I have found that Muslims are divided on the question of abrogation. ... "

Posted by *ALGOREisRICH* Thursday, 27 May 2010 6:44:25 PM
" ... Yes Steven.. so true. A study of that division would produce interesting results. ... "

Hmmm, is that so? Thus earlier statements indicating that the "nice" Mecca verses are trumped/abrogated by the "Blood Thirsty" Medina verses are in fact a matter of divergent opinion amongst Muslims and Scholars of Islam, would you not say, dear *BigAl likely Proxy 4 Boazy?*

Indeed, that seems quite plain does it not, as I can see the violent, frothing at the mouth variety as painted by *StevenLMeyer,* *Proxy* and *ALGoreis RICH* (and of course the Phantom of OLO, our one and only *Boazy*)

AND

also the respectful, tolerant, peaceful and Luving variety as experienced by me first hand in my encounters and engagements in Indonesia, Dahab Sinai (alas for a special sheesha ;-) )and Egypt.

So, are you not wedged dear friends or was this always the line?