It has always amazed me why we, as employers, have to pay employess by the hour, yet, almost everything we sell or make is sold either by weight or per item.

Let's take apples for egample.

You have one apple that weighs 100gr and another 200gr.

They both require the same amount of time to place on the shelf, yet, despite the fact that the retailer has paid equal amounts (in wages) for them to be sold, he only receives half the return for the smaller apple.

We sell steel for X$ per metre. Yet, it takes the same amount of time to cut and sell a 1 meter length as it does for a 3 mt length. So why does the worker get paid the same for effectively making less for the boss? The cost of production for the smaller peice is much higher, but why?

Perhaps this is the reason why so much of our manufacturing is going 'off shore', as we pay people for how long it takes to perform a task, not how much they produce.

What about if wages were set at a 'bare minimum' and a percentage of the profits were distributed to the workers. Quite easy, % of turnover goes to wages.

I can turn over doulble one saturday to the next, yet, I still have to pay the same wages.

And yes belly, it's me, your old mate rehctub!

"We sell steel for X$ per metre. Yet, it takes the same amount of time to cut and sell a 1 meter length as it does for a 3 mt length. So why does the worker get paid the same for effectively making less for the boss? "

Because the worker has does similar work regardless of how long the piece is. It's the boss who makes a decision about having a cutting charge (and I suspect that's generally about what he or she thinks is in their own best interest). The worker does similar work to sell the light apple or the heavy one, it's the boss who decides if he will have different unit pricing for larger different quantities purchased.

R0bert

Thank Christ you're not running the country. Someone would've drilled ya with a high powered rifle by now.

I can't think of a more dreary and drudge-filled world than one populated solely by employers who think like rehctub.
Once upon a time people worked with a connection to their produce and invested some interest in the things they grew or created. All that went out the door when industrialism came along and now modern society decrees that workers, who have no real interest in what they are selling, be paid by the hour

Butchers work extremely hard and long hours.

Rechtub, you just reminded me about a Butcher last week paying his Saturday staff in cash behind the counter from his register. The money I viewed being paid was NOTHING in comparison to a daily minimum wage of any desk position.

The theory and prac Butchers undertake in their apprenticeships to later on receive 'pittance' saddens me greatly.

Your energies are best channelled into requesting Government [DEWAR? or DEST] to give private Butchers a grant to assist with training and the employment of your employees. Or do you already receive government assistance?

These Butcher employees have worked damn hard for every cent they are paid [and more].

rehctub: Decisions on what product is stocked and sold rarely emanate from the employees, but from the business owner or manager.

One would assume that the biz owner would stock whatever brings in the best return and/or whatever keeps the customers coming back.

Therefore any product that the employee moves serves the profit making goal of the employer.

It seems like you're always looking for ways to exploit the efforts of the little bloke. Stg - I think a lot of employers think almost exactly the same as rehctub. Once upon a time Unions represented workers, but they are now run by self-serving fast tracking uni graduates who collude with management rather than challenge it. What a waste.

Rehctub, if you don't like paying hourly rates, perhaps you could try moving to piece rates? My brother-in-law was a boner at Homebush abbatoir for years. They were paid piece-rates on a per carcass basis with the fastest workers making the most money. In my own business I pay both hourly rates and piece rates depending on what the work is. For milling, it's all piece rates, since the biggest impediment to productivity is the waste of time between cuts, which can be reduced if the worker is moving faster. and thinking about the process. For general yard work, I pay by the hour, since the worker has little influence on the overall productivity. It's horses for courses.

I should also point out that I know several businesses that make all of their employees obtain an ABN so they can be paid as contractors rather than employees. I think that's despicable, unless they are genuinely able to set their own hours and they supply their own gear and are properly compensated for the cost of insurances, etc.

Pynchme:"Once upon a time Unions represented workers, but they are now run by self-serving fast tracking uni graduates who collude with management rather than challenge it."

Could not agree more. The Unions need a good kicking up the khyber in my view. Get rid of the Ludwigs and Shortens and Combets, etc, etc, etc and get back to basics - a fair day's work for a fair day's pay and stick it up the boss if he tries to rip you off.

R0bert
By law, apples must be sold by 'weight' and can't be sold 'per unit'.

STG >>Thank Christ you're not running the country...

Wow! hit a nerve hey!

So why the anger. What's wrong with a fair hours work for a fair hours pay?

>>The theory and prac Butchers undertake in their apprenticeships to later on receive 'pittance' saddens me greatly.

Yes, all but gone these days. Us butchers want apprentices to attend colledges, but the governments think the present system is fine. They are so wrong, but as usual (all governments) fail to listen to the experts.

>>Or do you already receive government assistance?
Yes we do.

BTW, good buthers net around $1400 for a 'long' 5 day week, or, $280 per day, TAKE HOME! How's that compared to a 'desk jocky'?

>>>It seems like you're always looking for ways to exploit the efforts of the little bloke.

Pynchme,I'm set for life, I am now helping my kids. I also pay well above the award rates, but I only hire good staff. Not interested in lazy 'clock watchers'. In fact, I just sacked one and he can't find work. He had the world at his feet, but couldn't see it. To many sickies, bad attitude.

I gave him no notice because I simply signed him off as a trademen. Go figure!

My real concern is moving forward.

I see in 10 or 20 years from now we will have no manufacturing and a country full of 'middle management' with no-one left to do the work.

Then what?

I am very fast worker yet when I worked casual, I did the work of 2 or 3. Yet, I got paid the same as the slowest. Is that fair in the view of my fan club?

As always, when you pay by the hour, the pace is set by the slowest worker.

If a typest can type 60 words per minute, why do they get paid the same as one who types 35?

Why not say when you have finnished your jobs, you can go home?

What's the problem here?

It was a statement, not an exclamation. No nerves hit nor anger here.

rechtub did you truly think, after reading only the title I would not know it was you?
Remember my first formal full time job?
Running in and out of Sydney's butcher shops, first one at 3.30 am, last about 6 pm.
Weighing and loading the bones and fat, placing it on a truck and doing two loads a day.
Never met a butcher like you, not one was so grumpy so out of touch.
So allergic to,,,his customers.
Workers get paid in tenths of hours, 6 minute intervals.
Be late by 2 minutes you get docked 6.
minimum 4 hours to be called to work out of hours.
Without workers we would not have butchers.
A worker sells his/her product time and efforts no differently than you sell your snags.
Do you know bloke this worker then a child never knew if he was sick he could take the day of.
Or that 12 hour days meant over time or indeed extra pay?
Did you see the surprised look on my face on that Friday night, on getting out of the truck as usual the boss handing me my pay as usual, said these words.
Sorry mate, will not need you again, you are getting too old have to find another kid or pay is too much.

rehctub weight/unit the principle is pretty much the same. The boss get's to make the decision regarding different pricing levels for small purchases vs bulk purchases. The issue of how well people work is a different one to the examples you gave in the opening post.

There is scope for employers to provide bonus's etc to employee's who are above average.

R0bert

There is scope for employers to provide bonus's etc to employee's who are above average.
RÔBERT,
That scope in turn is opportunism for government to tax more. Incentive gone again !
Bring on flat tax !!

Agree completely with both Pynchme and Antiseptic.

Am now watching for pigs flying past my window.

Working in film, I get paid an hourly rate if I do extras work or a flat fee if I am featured. No matter how many hours I may spend on set, a contract fee is always better money than hanging around for many hours as an extra.

However, extras and crew tolerate long hours and poor pay because of a love for the industry - the creative process. The same cannot be said of most 'treadmill' work, such as factory production line, cleaning, sales or low-level office work.

Pay structure tends to be hierarchical where the lowest paid may well be working harder - such as apprentices, cleaners, care-workers. It is all about the status - on that alone a boss or manager may well feel an entitlement to ensuring that they are rewarded well over and above their employees. Rehctub exemplifies this attitude consistently.

Maybe Rehctub would like to pay his employees by weight and only hire anorexics.

:P

"Agree completely with both Pynchme and Antiseptic."

I hope that your head does not explode from trying to hold that together ; )

R0bert

R0bert

Head not exploding, just laughing.

:)

May I join in with the sentiments of Severin, Antiseptic and Pynchme.

and Poirot - thankfully rehctub does not represent all employers or the workers would be living in hovels and under bridges.

People are paid for their labour rehctub, regardless of whether the apple they place on the shelf is 50g or 55g.

Try and think of labour as a product - 10 hours of work = $x.

Sheesh...

Try and think of labour as a product - 10 hours of work = $x.
Pelican,
where does that leave bureaucrats who, despite being utterly unproductive, yet get higher pays than your average apple sorter ? Therein lies the inequality many try to draw attention to.

individual
If it makes you feel better yes many public servants are overpaid when compared to the industry sector but not in all areas. The public service is too top-heavy and the SES needs to be trimmed. The problems with the APS are that too many frontline workers are sacrificed in budget cuts while senior levels remain relatively unscathed. This has flow on consequences to program delivery and the more customer service focussed roles and lack of service to the very public who pay for those services. You.

Public servants do produce something in the form of a service, whether it be the Centrelink worker who faces abuse each day from disgruntled customers who have had to queue for hours on the phone or in person because of cuts to the coal face, or those who are helping to reduce homelessness or list a heritage building.

individual, there are too many important functions to list here, but I am not sure what this has to do with hourly rates in terms of rehctub's essential point.

Pelican

Your assessment of the Public Service validates my experience. However, as you say it is not relevant to rechtub's topic.

Another way that rechtub may reduce the wages he pays to the people who keep in in business (AKA employees) is perfectly illustrated in the following Dilbert cartoon:

http://tinyurl.com/2ctqugt

Well, if you lot, my fan club, can all just distance yourself from attacking me personally and think of what I have asked, you may well understand where I come from.

I had two seperate incidents occurr today.

Firstly, I deliverd some meat to a local hotel and, when I asked the staff member if they thought they would be busy today, being mothers day, she replied, "I hope not".

Secondly, I went to dinner with my 'adult kids' and my wife and we had the worst service you could imagine, even to the point that they forgot to cook our food.

Those staff responsible will be expecting to be paid for the hours they worked today and have little regard for whether or not the owner makes money.

Why should they be paid an hourly rate? They both cost the employer money. The first one certainly does not care about her boss.

Fortunately for her the boss is woolworths, so they have to jump through hoops to sack her, even though she is not worth having.

Now someone mentioned 'bonning beef' as a 'piece worker'.

This practice was widely used in the meat processing plants, however I think the unions have all but chopped this out as the slower workers just couldn't keep up. So now most workers work slow as they can't see the point in working hard for no reward.

Can you blame them?

Anyway, I think the wheels are about to fall off, if Mr Dud has his way, and many of these 'dead beats' will be on the streets and bosses will be able to pick and choose again so they get their monies worth.

I don't have a problem as I only hire the best and pay for them.

Sorry belly, if they are to old to keep up, I to would have to let you go because I am forced to pay an hourly rate, regardless of how little, or how much you do. After all, I'm not a charrity you know.

Funny how things have a way of working themselves out, hey!

Rechtub you sound exactly like my 'business brother'; in fact you may be related! Such a thing as loyalty when you may one day be without staff and the older employee, now retired, may be the only person to help you out during a most busy difficult week or month! If you treat others how you wish to be treated, the employees you have should be totally hardworking and loyal. Being butchers, I'd be looking over my shoulder, if I were you, if you do not treat them with respect and fairness.

rehctub
Receiving bad service is not pleasant but do you know why? Was it a poor employee who had little care or little competency? Or was it a dodgy employer who never has enough people on shift to ensure work is able to be performed to a high standard and hences standards slip.

One experience of bad service could also be a sign of lack of adequate training. Maybe the owner was the cook.

You cannot change an entire wage system based on one bad experience in a hotel or restaurant.

I tried a percentage of profit scheme, in my remanufactured auto components business.

It brought me a load of pain, as almost all the staff believed I made at least 3 or 4 times as much proffit as I did. Most believed I was ripping them off, [with a bonus scheme].

In a manufacturing business, in another time & place, I used a different system. As rehctub says, this was not as fair for the best workers, but better for me, & perhaps most staff.

I would state a monthly turnover figure, we had to achieve, [always achievable], for a each month of a 3 month period, & give everyone a 5% or 10% raise, if it was achieved.

I did not have to worry about poor workers, as the staff, wanting the raise, would get them going for me. Slackers did not last long.

The staff must have liked this system. I lost none of those who gave a days fair work, over a long period.

I also prefered to train, & promote from within. My sales manager started as a junior storeman, & my accountant as an acounts clarke, for example

Hang on a moment...rechtub has hit on something here.

Why not pay fat people more, or less, than skinny people?

This pay-by-weight idea has legs I think.

We could starve fat and overweight people into action, to save our national health bill from the costs of obesity and diabetes.

Brilliant rechtub.

But should we have a debate about what level of profits are 'right' before we start sharing them out even-Stephens?

And what about the ability of the wealthy to avoid and evade tax, making no 'profits' available to share?

Shall we start with a new tax system, on turnover not profit?

Clearly recthub is a CIS member, and an avid listener to Duffy.

Agree 100% with The Blue Cross. As for Rehctub what make and model of car do you drive? Always a good indicator of how one's traveling.

rechtub how did you get the idea I would work for you.
Never left a job the boss did not ask me to stay, never ever had to be told to work harder.
often told by a boss to slow down.
however we could interact.
I love confronting bosses like you.
Huge fun.
Picks me right up and know what? bet you say my door is always open!
Those who say this are often the boss most hated or distrusted by? their workers.
Right now home a bit early but put my 10 hours in some days 12 or 17 last week, but pride in giving your best at work still drives me.
And the understanding for every good boss a rechtub waits for me.

pelican
One of the causes is the new award.

Many bosses now have to employ juniors just to stay afloat on Sundays.

It's becomming quite common.

>>>As for Rehctub what make and model of car do you drive?

Well, actually I own a ford F150 import. But it usually sits at home attached to my boat as I live 1 minute from the ramp.

It's a shame some mornings as I look out over the bay but have to, or choose to, go to work.

Life's great!

Hope this helps!

We have an American visitor staying with us and she said that if these staff were employed in america, they would not survive as they (americans) rely on 'tips'. Poor service, or poor attitude means no tips, means no pay, means tough life.

And belly, I wasn't refering to you personally. However, if one wishes to be paid well, they should be able to provide the goods, not just the hours. Don't you think?

A good chicken bonner can bone 800 chickens per 10hr day. They usually get paid per bird, around 55cents. That's $440 per day.

On the other hand, if they only have 600 to bone one day, they finnish early but still get paid for what they do.

Works well for all concerned and as a boss, we don't care how much they earn, so long as they can do the job.

Of cause they are contractors. Now that's a whole new ball game.

As I said: try piece rates

"Well, actually I own a ford F150 import. But it usually sits at home attached to my boat as I live 1 minute from the ramp.
It's a shame some mornings as I look out over the bay but have to, or choose to, go to work."

This blokes travel'n fine but still wants a bigger slice of the cake!
I think it would be much fairer all round, if at the end of the workers 16 hour shift down at The Rehctub Sweat Shop, if boss Eebenezer here just doles out what he thinks your worth, all based on whats fair for all, piece work, quota system, bonus would be all rolled up into one bowl of rice.

"We have an American visitor staying with us and she said that if these staff were employed in america, they would not survive as they (americans) rely on 'tips'. Poor service, or poor attitude means no tips, means no pay, means tough life."

Your Yank friend must be doing well from tips, can afford to fly half way around the World to see you, on them. I think not. tips another form of begging.

there are too many important functions to list here, but I am not sure what this has to do with hourly rates in terms of rehctub's essential point.
pelican,
I think a unionist might be a better person to be asked this question. I'll be on my way to work in a few minutes to show & explain to some workers how to sweep with a broom & why it is vital that the work is being done although it never is. These blokes are asking for more money. Now, tell me. After ten years of not performing for low pay should they get paid more to entice them to work or should they perform first so they can get better pay ? What in your opinion should come first. The effort for the pay or the pay for the effort ? How would you solve this situation without any benchmark ?

Paul1405,
Typicle underachiever symptons there mate, attack the 'hard working' succesfull person, not the issue at stake.

BTW, my staff are very well paid and if you were to have followed my posts yopu will have realised this by now. But, I only hire the best!

>>>tips another form of begging. Or, being paid what they are worth. After all, if one is good at their job, don't they deserve to be better paid?

Now individual,makes a very good point. Staff get paid in advance, assumming they are good at thier job.

I think that they should be made prove themselves first.

Perhaps a 'tiered pay level' would be a good thing, say leveles within levels.

At the moment, in my industry, one gets paid for the time they have spent in the industry. However, someone just out of their time may be far better than another with 10 years experience.

Why should they get paid the same.

You see the award hourly rate is set by the standards of the poorest worker.

Is this fair on the employer, considering they must jump through hoops to get rid of them if they slacken off after a trial period. And it happens!

I think the american system may be worth considering. You get paid what you are worth.

It would make workers compete for jobs and improve productivity.

After all, one can't continue to expect a pay rise just because the CPI goes up. They have to perform for it don't you think.

Take the hotel worker. She is worthless to the employer, yet, being a multi national employer, she is protected by law and vertually can't be sacked.

Meanwhile, a budding young enthusiest is wanting a job at the hotel but there is no position available as they have to much 'dead wood' that can't be sacked.

Rehctub, at the end of the day its all about you. You making all the decisions. Who gets paid and don't, who works and who don't. As for me 8 years of study, qualified engineer, 38 years working, children grown up and successful, and that's an underachiever in you words. What's your record?

US Bureau of Labor Statistics:
Food and beverage serving workers derive their earnings from a combination of hourly wages and tips. Earnings vary greatly. Fast-food workers usually do not receive tips, so their wage rates may be higher than those in full-service restaurants, but their overall earnings might be lower. In many full-service restaurants, tips are higher than wages. In some restaurants, workers contribute all or a portion of their tips to a tip pool, which is distributed among qualifying workers. Tip pools allow workers who don't receive tips from customers, such as dining room attendants, to share in the rewards of good service.
In May 2008, median hourly wages (including tips) of waitstaff $8.01. The middle 50%earned between $7.32/$10.35. The lowest 10% less than $6.73, and the highest 10% more than $14.26. For most waitstaff, higher earnings are primarily the result of receiving more in tips rather than higher hourly wages, staff in busy or expensive restaurants earn the most.
Bartenders had median hourly wages (including tips) of $8.54. The middle 50 percent earned between $7.53 and $10.98. The lowest 10% less than $7.00, and the highest 10% more than $14.93. Like waitstaff, bartenders employed in public bars may receive more than half of their earnings as tips. Service bartenders often are paid higher hourly wages to offset their lower tip earnings.
Median wages of combined food preparation and serving workers, including fast food, were $7.90. Fast-food workers usually do not get tips.
Many inexperienced workers earn the Federal minimum wage ($7.25 per hour July, 2009). Also, various minimum wage exceptions apply under specific circumstances to disabled workers, full-time students, youth under age 20 in their first 90 days of employment, tipped employees, and student-learners. Tipped employees are those who customarily and regularly receive more than $30 a month in tips. The employer may consider tips as part of wages, but the employer must pay at least $2.13 an hour in direct wages

With the average wage in America at around $20/HR it would seem the lucky people working in Food and Beverage service are doing well if they can make half that per hour, including tips.
Rehctub, when you eat out do you leave a tip?

Tips...hmm... an interesting topic since these are cultural add-ons that reflect the national character more than anything else.

When I arrived in Oz, many years ago, we took a taxi in Melbourne somewhere and agonised over how much to tip the driver, as one is expected to do in the UK.

In the end, we managed to gather up 10% and just hoped that that was the Oz level too.

To our great surprise, and relief when we worked out what it meant, the driver was furious and hurled all the money after us out the passenger door window yelling 'bloody Poms... we earn real wages over here, keep your bloody tips'.

Either it wasn't a big enough tip, or, the egalitarian nature of the country was genuine and people did not have to beg for tips to live.

(Under Hawke Keating Howard Rudd and their neo-liberalism our country is no longer 'egalitarian').

It was the latter, although I see that tip jars are appearing in cafes these days.

The only tip I offer these days is to 'go and join a union and get your industry some decent wages'.

The Missos cover cafes, and like the Shoppos, they have failed to unionise this industry of small businesses, and people who work in the industry are too young to understand the role of unions in the community.

Tips are undignified, and a power relationship that puts the worker down.

Australia should say no to tipping, a demeaning cheapskates view that reflects the master-servant relationship that underpins our employment situation even today.

Tips are like the employer favoured 'bonus'. A cheap way out of paying wages that avoids superannuation and, like employing casuals, allows them to cut wages to buy their tax deductible 4WD when the balance sheet looks a bit dodgy.

There are many cooperative workplaces in the world.

That seems to be a more civilised method of organising secure work and a reasonable level of income for all involved.... greedy ego driven people, of course, hate such mechanisms.

TBC & Paul1405

In full agreement with all your points.

I worked as a waiter for a while living in USA - the tips are absolutely vital to survival. At the first restaurant I worked, I received no wage at all until my uniform was paid for by withholding my hourly rate. Also there is no guarantee that every patron will leave a tip - even after exemplary service. As TBC noted:

>> Tips are undignified, and a power relationship that puts the worker down. <<

A decent boss values their staff and that includes a reasonable living wage as well as safe working conditions.

Why pay by the hour?
In 1904 The truck act was made law, to prevent people like you paying workers with food, potatoes and the like. They were made to pay cash.
The forty hour week replaced the forty eight hour week. All these conditions were won by workers who had to fight to get fairness and fight to keep fairness. Mate it is the LAW and John Howard eventually failed to smash unions on your behalf so why don't you learn how to get the best out of you workers by treating them as if they are humans and give some respect. you will be suprised when respect is returned your productivity will go up.
A good rule of thumd is, the worker will giv 95% because they want to and 60% when they have to.
Wake up it ain't rocket science, just decency.
Lorry

Hey rehctub,
I had a company secretary exlain his butcher boss's super scheme. It would suit you just fine.
What this particular butcher did was to set up an employee contribution fund for his chain of 10 shops in the suburbs.
He would match dollar for dollar after they served ten years. If the employee left before ten years the employee forfieted his or her entitlement.
This employer, lets call himm the Good Butcher and his wife were the trustees of the fund.
So what he did was sack each worker when they got their service up to 9 years and 9 months. Ultimately he closed his chain of shops down and the monies left in the fund reverted to the trustees to disperse. Lo, and behold, the only ones left in the fund were his missus and he.
LOL I told you this scheme would suit you, did'n I.

Rehctub , I think your post is the closest thing to fascism i've read on this site.

Workers in the US haven't had a pay increase in 20 yrs or longer and hence the abominable tips regime. A system born of the haves and have nots. How demeaning do you think life should be for others in order that you can continue improving yours.

I am loyal to my employer out of habit, but the fact is, in my industry that the hourly award rate is never paid to retail sales people. Payslips falsify the hours worked by a salesperson each week.

These people spend 55hrs+ a week at work but their payslip says they only spent 40.
As well as receiving a persons productivity (and paying for it in commissions), the employer also receives their time. 15 hours of it unpaid each week.

All of us only have one life Rehctub. Time is money!.

If an employer were to receive 40 hrs labour from an employee and then say ," I'm only paying for 25 hrs", millions of people would be out in the street protesting with or without unions. And yet this illegal practice is common in retail sales in our country.

On tips I've had one employer who sent a memo round, " that deemed all tips for service etc as officially belonging to him". Meaning slabs of beer etc. Tips are a form of charity, not a guarantee of better service or higher wages..

All people need time for their own life. 15 free work hrs per week over a person's working lifetime takes a huge chunk out of someone else's life and times without compensation, other than keeping their job. Loyalty is a problem in my industry because the only way to improve your wages against rising prices/inflation in real terms, is by changing employer. But you could be out of the fat and into the fire? by doing that.

Having more respect for your own employee's and their situation might be a good place for you to start enjoying your own life, Rehctub

Rehctub, when you eat out do you leave a tip?

If the price is right, by that I mean well prices for what it is, the food is good and the service is good, then yes I do.

Hi lorry

Havn't seen you before, welcome to my fan club!

BTW, my books are perfect and all entitlements, including super are always paid.

Paul, whoever you are, people in glass houses shoudn't throw stanes mate. You threw mud at me so I returned serve.

BTW, well done, I like to see people succeeding, unlike my fan club of 'tall poppies'.

Gee you lot are thick!

You just can't get your head around the fact that I do look after my staff well.

It's like a game of cricket were you are all trying so very hard to get me out.

Next batter up please!

thinker 2

Belly is more up to date on the dud IR laws under Gillard, but when I was organising I took employers to court for wages up to six years back.

Anyone working those extra 15 hours, under direction and not off their own bat, can claim back, or could claim back, up to six years unpaid wages.

And superannuation on ordinary hours.

Employees are not allowed to work unpaid overtime, for a number of reasons, including problems with workers comp.

This sort of behaviour is part of the 'we take you give' mentality of some employers I wrote about above.

This is what unions are for.

But, if not in a union, the workplace inspectors do the work for you too.

I took one employer to the inspector years ago for sacking me miles from home, and to my great suprise and delight, ended up with nearly a $1k back pay for all my travel time, wrong classification, and various allowances.

My complaint was the first time anyone had lodged one with a well known bad-boss in a small town, and gave the inspector an opportunity to go through his books and pick up underpayments for the remaining fellow too...all given 'willingly' by the time he had finished with the bar-steward.

Take no prisoners when you get dudded...attack with all your weapons.

Rehctub
"You just can't get your head around the fact that I do look after my staff well."
This is your assessment of yourself. Based on your posts, even if you do look after staff well, your looking for an opportunity not to do so.

"It's like a game of cricket were you are all trying so very hard to get me out"
Rehctub you have been cleaned bowled a number of times, but like your workplace you make all the rules and wont take the umpires decision.

TBC

Like most employers Retailers both large and small are very much profit driven, and use child exploitation as their biggest tool to boost the bottom line.

Cheers Paul.

TBC today is like most, good bosses exist and in truth are more common than bad.
BUT yesterday and who knows maybe today I found a very bad one.
8 years ago a book inspection found massive and deliberate under payments of wages.
Workers wanted to keep the firm trading.
We asked that past loss be made up in over payments, over a few years.
boss agreed next week about to sign deeds of release they declared bakrupsy.
Took out unsecured loans of close to a quarter of a million dollars, hide that much in plant, put 80 workers out of work.
Next day? changed one word in title, leaving sign writing on trucks, started a new firm.
Yesterday, 8 years after.
Another group of workers arrived in my office, same firm different name, different faces.
Those workers tabled evidence that they are owed about the same, a great deal of cash, and this.
The boss heard they intended to visit me, told them, well they could be killed if they are not careful.
unions are not evil, some are lazy but who would resent these people getting help?
In time these fleas will be undone but until then please understand people like rechtub have no concerns for fairness.
PS
Had coffee with a good boss yesterday he is a mate to me and his workers half a unionists work is helping such as him.

Question, should non-performers get paid the same as good workers ?

Paul >>>I am not looking for an opportunity to cut wages, rather, I just want to know why staff are paid the 'be there' for an anount of time, rather than for the amount of work they do in that time.

The boss only gets paid for the amount that he/she sells, so why the difference.

If you were picking tomatoes and one guy picks three buckets per hour and another 1.5 buckets. Do they both deserve equal pay?

In an hourly rate situation, which by the way is the law, why should the fast worker work as hard as he does when he only gets paid the same as the slower one?

This is my whole point.

Nothing about slashing wages at all.

Now on the topic of 'back pay'.

I have had three 'wage audits' over my 20+ years in business.

First one I got screwed because the kid I employed's 'mum' booked me from the time he left home, till the time he returned. Now he used to have extended lunch breaks, in agreement with myself and, he would stay back and clean up after I had finnished.

It cost me $2K back in 1990 and I paid it. Lesson learned.

The next two were an absolute joke.

Some half whit inspector claimed we owewd thousands in one case and I simply told them to go jump.

After being threatened by some 'hot shot' lawyer, he found that this moron had failed to take into account thier last pay which included all entitlements.

Meanwhile, this idiot on an hourly rate cost the tax payer thousands due to complete incomitance.

The third one involved one casual person and one 2hr shift.

She finnished early on a private matter and they wanted us to pay the extra 2 hours. You're kidding, I said.

Meanwhile my wife spent hours (unpid of cause) colating records for yet another moron wasting tax payers money, again on an hourly rate.

Don't tell me an hourly rate is a good system.

rehctub

Try using a wage book, issuing wage slips, and all will be fine.

You could not be required to pay for your employees travel to work time, or home, in what I understand from your posts is a 'butchers shop' of some form.

And no inspector or union official would argue that you should, unless it was 'in the award'.

And if it was in the award, then you should have paid it.

Try also hanging the appropriate award in a prominent place, say the smoko room, where all can freely read it, and understand how and where their wages come from, as far as 'the instrument' is concerned anyway.

If you pay above award, good on you, but in reading the award your staff will also understand how generous you are too.

If your wife works for nothing, then you are cheating her, and deluding yourself as to the true costs of running your business, as many employers do, so make amends, turn her work into a real job, and she will be very happy.

If she is a business partner with you, then her time should still be accounted for as a cost, to reflect the true cost of running your business.

Maybe you should ask Belly to give you a hand to sort out your true costs?

T B C.

I think my accountant/advisor does a pretty good job for his 20 odd grand a year I pay him. Thanks anyway, perhaps someone else needs help.

BTW, my wife does do the books and does a splended job and draws a good wage.

But, when you first start out in business (1989) you tend to trust your employees.

Unfortunately, once you have been sharfted a few times, one gets a little hesitant when it comes to trust and everyone looses in the end. But hey, that's life!

It's abit like having to hand out written warnings, it simply weakens any bond between the boss and the worker. Makes the worker more like a number, rather than a person.

But hey, labor and the unions know best!

Now if you are a tax payer I would be a tad snakey about the wasted dollars, paid to some incompitent industrial ombensmen employee, going on a 'witch hunt'.

The second claim I mentioned, went on for about 6 months, started at almost $6K and I ended up paying about $700 just to make it all go away as I was on a plane to Thailand the next day, for a family holiday.

Also, my wife had done enough 'unpaid hours' providing documentation for these fools.

Meanwhile, the emplyee involved must have thought they were in for a treat as I assume they were also told they would receive about 6 grand in back pay.

Boy they must have been deflated when they received less than a grand!

Remember, this fool of an officer gets paid by the hour.

Now do you really think she represents value for money to the tax payer?

After all, the relevent documentation was provided, only she was to stupid to be able to follow the paper trail, yet, she is a qualified auditor!

Or what about the third claim?

You're kidding!

What about a system where she does not get paid by the hour, rather, she gets a 'basic rate' and a bonus depending on the success of her claims?

Why would this be unfair?