Ok this reads like one of those joke threads right, you know the ones where we all sit and talk about Brazilians or Paris Hilton’s movie career.

I like the title “Did my older brother turn me gay?”

It does suggest something nasty happening in the bedroom after dark.

It invites comments along the lines of “Incest is the sort of problem best kept in the family”

So if this is not some sort of joke lets just assume

Some Gays are born (the result of hormonal defects in gestation)

Some are “acting out” a rebellion and living life on the edge (or the “rim”, if you prefer).
They might be more satisfied with a heterosexual relationship if they could muster the courage to just aspire to being “normal” instead of pursuing the “abnormal”.

Some are the result of their environment (introduced to specific sexual practices or intimidated by their craving the attention of the opposite sex etc. this could be a long list)

This includes being infected like pedophiles are infected from being the victims of pedophiles.

Either way (poor choice of words maybe), so long as folk have a happy and fulfilled life, it does not matter to the rest of the world which team they bat for or for that matter, whether that are a pitcher or receiver.

I'm intrigued by the genetic arguments for homosexuality, although most of the people I know who are same-sex attracted tend to see their sexuality as more of a 'spectrum' - one of my friends commented that he first thought he might be gay when he saw "Romeo + Juliet" and found Leonardo DiCaprio just as attractive Claire Danes. :)

Another friend-of-a-friend dated various men for several years before becoming attracted to her female housemate - they have now been dating for several years and are soon to have a committment ceremony. Their perspective is that they each fell in love with 'the person', rather than 'the person's gender'.

'tis tricky.

I wonder in such cases whether it is a spectrum, or if it is 'the person', or if they are attracted to the opposite sex initially as a form of social 'face-saving'. I know as a hetero woman I claimed for several years in high school to have a crush on various boys at my school, simply to 'fit in', despite having no sexual attraction to the opposite sex at that age at all- I was younger than my classmates, and somewhat behind on the sexual-attraction thing, so I made it up - I wonder how that plays for people feeling same-sex attracted, but living in a society which is very ambivalent about their right to be so attracted.

Sorry to go in another direction again :)

Col Rouge, rarely do I agree with any of your posts. At times, they can almost make me angry (almost) but I'm 100% with you on this one. Who cares if homosexuality is genetic or a lifestyle choise. What right have we to judge others? Easily said I know and sometimes I find myself acting as judge and jury from my arm chair view of the World, but unless someone is causing harm to somebody else, live and let live I say. I've know gay people, both male and female and have only ever found them to be friendly, helpful and loyal. And this word "normal" that is constantly bandied around, how can we flawed humans ever hope to decide what's "normal" and what isn't. "Normal" means so many different things to so many different people, I believe there's no such thing and I've strived to strike the word from my vocabulary! Judgement is where religion falls down so badly too. Their supposed belief is that only God can judge and yet their churches fail to allow gay people the opportunity to pray with the rest of the congregation. They'll gladly shake a bible at a gay person or non believer and tell them they'll be cursed to hell if they don't repent, but how can they know? Isn't it only their God that can decide the non believer's fate? Not much hope of it happening out where I live, but I'd much sooner live in between two gay neighbours than live next to a person like Leigh who comes across as someone so full hate and totally misunderstanding of the plight of others. And that's a shame, because Leigh has often proved himself to be capable of contributing a well thought out post. Unfortunately, his reply to this thread is not one of his finer moments.

Col, Wildcat you make a good point that it should not matter why someone acts outside the "norm" does so. If the action involves onnly themselves or other then consenting adults then it really is nobody elses business.

On the other hand I see value in understanding the causes especially in the light of some a concerted attack on some groups by those who know how everybody else should live.

Unfortunately the idea that an aging middle eastern shepherd god takes time out from admiring the placement of galaxies across the universe, the efforts of his followers in spreading hatred, slaugtering innocents etc or his own efforts in starving children through famine, drowning them in tsunami's etc to call out "hold everything, thats not the right hole for that to go in" seems to be taken seriously by some.

Personally I'd rather see him (or her) if they exist devote a bit more effort to stopping those claiming to follow them from flying planes into the sides of buildings, shelling innocents and otherwise making the world a worse place and a bit less on who puts what where.

In the mean time from what I've seen there is ample evidence that genetics play a major factor in determining peoples sexual orientation. As with a number of other issues the evidence is not all in, the conclusions may not be final but the devil is in the detail rather than the big picture.

I've also seen that those who choose based on social pressure rather than actual orientation all to often bring misery on themselves and those around them.

Maybe a few less will accept the disgusting views of those who want to decide how the rest of us should live if the science is better understood on this and other issues.

R0bert

Yes, I'm with spendo, Col, Wildcat, Laurie and R0bert on this one. I probably agree most with Laurie, in that I think innate sexuality is experienced on a kind of spectrum, which can more or less fit in with various cultural norms.

To address Snout's main point, I don't think it really matters which of what seems to be a multi-faceted etiology for homesexuality is the most predictive one for particular individuals - whether one seeks a genetic, social, cultural, psychological or whatever 'root' cause (pardon the pun). Really, those who have problems with homosexuality (or any sexuality involving consenting adults for that matter) should just 'butt' out of other people's lives (sorry, couldn't resist that one) :)

Col, no it’s not a joke thread, although I did think hard about the wisdom of posting what’s intended as a cheeky title. In the end I couldn’t help myself, not only because it encapsulates the research I want to discuss, but also because it sends up what I think has long been a particularly corrosive aspect of discussions about the origins of homosexuality – the assumption that if someone’s gay then it must be someone’s fault.

I’d have preferred not to start with three long posts, but I couldn’t get the argument any more concise without losing crucial elements. If you like, skip to the end of the third post and click on the second link to the Scientific American article.

I think it’s reasonable to ask why the origin of variation in sexual preference matters. Many years ago I worked with autistic kids, and I can recall the absolute outrage of parents who suffered the double burden not only of looking after a severely disabled child, but being told by some psychoanalytically oriented psychiatrists that their child’s condition was caused by deficient parenting, specifically the callous emotional coldness of the mother. Similarly, parents struggling with a psychotic adolescent were sometimes informed that their child’s tragic and frightening condition was due to emotionally manipulative parenting in early childhood. These days, fortunately, any sane psychiatrist would be as likely to ascribe these proven biological disorders to demonic possession, as lay these odious therories on vulnerable families.

Of course I don’t see homosexuality as a clinical condition (very few doctors or psychologists do), but the laying of guilt trips is still very pervasive, and is based on a similar theoretical framework with as little evidence - that is none - as the mid 20th century theories about schizophrenia and autism. The “seduction theory” is equally unfounded in evidence, although gay kids may be more likely to suffer sexual abuse for reasons I’ve outlined elsewhere. Such ideas confuse and obscure the very real issues childhood sexual abuse victims face.

RObert, can you remember the name of the doco you saw?