Yep foxy is now a first time graaaaaany, she tells us, mum the baby, a big baby girl and Graaaaaany are fine. The latter feet are off the ground. (probably resting up for the granny patrol to come.
more details coming, eh foxy ;-)

I wish(ed) (more of them too) the three females congrats and commiserations to the father.
That's the end of him being the centre of attention, peace and quiet, not that he probably minds. what untill the boyfriends start appearing :-|.

Anyway I started thinking about my own becoming and parenting and my granny's patrol.

Mine had a heart of Gold but an exterior like granite.
How about yours'

Great news foxy and family, all your rest is gone but it is worth every bit, sure she and her mum are princesses just like granny.
Grand kids are indeed grand, until you get them in the numbers my family has crowds of them.
Still would not swap any of them, unless some one has a ham radio?

Dear Examinator,

I'm absolutely thrilled that you started a thread
on my becoming a gran.

However - my grandchild is a boy - not a girl.
Weighing in at over 8 lbs - with strawberry-blonde
hair and big blue-eyes.

Both parents are blue-eyed - with my son being a
red-head, and his wife a blonde.

I can't begin to tell you the enormous feeling of
joy that goes through me every time I hold my
grand-child.
It's very difficult to control my emotions at
this time.

Dear Belly,

Thank You. Both mother and son are doing well.
And my son's a very supportive and proud father.
He's been involved from day one. He's taken 2 weeks
off from work - and spends his entire time at the
hospital. It was a text-book delivery - no drugs -
and mother, son, and father - are bonding beautifully.

cont'd ...

What will I be like as a gran?

I'll probably spoil the child -
because I'll love him unconditionally,
but I think that's allowed.
Children learn early on that
their grandparents are special
people. And one thing's for sure -
he'll learn to love books. I've
got stories, songs, rhymes, galore...

What was my gran like?
I only ever knew the one - my
mum's, mum.
She was not your typical Russian "babushka!"
She was an extremely classy lady - very elegant,
who made me the most divine coats and jackets.
Excellent cook, seamstress, and spoilt
me rotten. Plus she could sing. Even today,
whenever I hear an old Russian melody - memories
come flooding back. She was also a wonderful
storyteller. Perhaps some of her qualities
rubbed off on me. I hope so! She taught me to
love with my entire heart!

Ok, so the truth is slowly coming out. Ouf Foxy is not the
youngest anymore sleek skin and all, more like with
moth eaten fur, mixed with the odd dose of mange :)

Yup, grandmommy hormones are powerfull things!

Congratulations Foxy dear! As with most other grandmothers,
no doubt your grandkids really are the greatest by far!

Dear Yabby,

Thank You!

I don't know about any - "granny" hormones,
this is all a new experience for me -
as a first-timer.

But I can assure you that I'm still
bright eyed and bushy-tailed.
I guess it's the running, cycling,
and pole-dancing that does it!

cont'd ...

And being chased by spunky,
young men - doesn't
hurt either!

Congratulations Foxy!

regards,
Pynch

Yes foxy it was life changing for me too. http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3348#79583

Congrats to one and all, another reason to build a better future.

Foxy,
Congratulations.

One advantage of being a grandparent is that if it makes a noise or smells you can usually hand it back.

Our son and daughter-in-law have a baby 9mts and called in last Sat for a nappy change and a coffee. Picked my wife up and took her to sydney with them to look after bubs while they went to a wedding. Dropped my wife off home next day. Oh well, that is what grandparents are for.

Early December wife flew to melbourne to keep 14 year old grand daughter company as school was finished but parents had to work until Christmas. They had a ball, going into town for lunches and movies, museums, art gallerys and shopping of course. Good to be able to spend time with granddaughter, but I daren't look at the bank balance.

Oh dear, Gender issues already?

I should re-read before posting, apologies.
Olo or Examinator... good butch names for a strawberry blond boy.

My Latvian birth parents apparently hated every thing Russian (invaders).

Gran (adopted) was born north of Rutherford NSW/Qld on a property, now a national park/bilby enclosure habitat, in 1890, the backside of no-where.
Home schooled by her mum. sent to work at 14
A victim of fertility... a gutless hubby and the depression.

He left her with 7 children he didn't believe in birth control..catholic. Mum spent a few years in a Salvo "home".

I probably posted this before. Gran more likely to say "don't sit *boy* get up and do something about it".
She me the obituaries at breakfast, while making sure I ate properly.

Gran was tough as Granite, the exterior of old leather but a heart of gold. Despite being a determined, cranky, laconic, gruff no nonsense sole despite this there were over 200 people at her funeral. Including 3 different serving city mayors, wives and the board/auxiliaries from 3 hospital. All because of her charitable work.

I remember her *Telling* the local green grocer to give her his bruised fruit and deliver it so she could make jam for the hospitals. She did the same for sugar from the local supermarket....they both complied and attended her funeral. That year she made 50 cakes and over 2000 jars of assorted jams and marmalades, not bad for a old battle axe with chronic arthritis at 79 ish. Any questions where I get my humanism from? Proud of her? Not my right to claim reflected glory for *her* hard work. Admire(d) her and influenced me ....You bet.
She was the archetypal laconic, self effacing old time Aussie generous doer, from times gone by. Her type are not repeated today.

P.S. she resisted honours and once when given life governorship of PANCH aux. She stood and said. "thanks" and sat down.

Steven, great spin my boy,
Robot (soldier) technology is so primitive its a joke.
Now AI is primitive. The idea of Asimov's positronic brain and the consequences there of are fanciful. Even the famous No5 weapon from "short circuit" was fanciful. Autonomous soldiers is nonsense Computer technology must be programed and "learns" within tediously limited parameters.

As for the territory argument regarding Israel that is an exceedingly superficial assessment. If it was either just for the right to exist or within the 1967 borders the argument would have been resolvable years ago. It about the expansionary attitudes and power lust(religious superiority pride pretending to be racial differential)) of a electorally disproportionate minority.

The equivalent or the "Moral Majority" (sic) in the USA, a bunch of religious superiority nutters.

Territory and existence are merely the "stalking horse" justifications. They have absolutely no notion of equity or fairness, latter day colonial bullies and invaders.

The US supports them solely through self interest and internal political reasons. Interested in fairness/equity ? no way. Untill we as a species can deal with that the conflict will continue.

Dear Pynch,

Thank You for the Congratulations.
Much appreciated.

Dear Wybong,

Thank You. I'm happy to hear that I'm
not the only one who finds all this a
life changing experience - and yes -
it does make one more conscious about
what the future holds - and the legacy
we'll leave for the following generations.

Dear Banjo,

Thank You - especially for giving me such a positive
insight for what's waiting for me in the future.
It will be sometime though - as this little
fellow is only 4 days old. But they know that
I'll do whatever they need, whenever they need it.
Babysitting - and whatever else they want.

Dear Examinator,

Your adopted Gran sounds amazing!
What a Lady!

My mother-in-law was a bit self-sacrificing
as well.
She gave up a high-paying job to go and work
at Mount Royal Hospital - looking after the aged.
She gave up her career - and studied nursing.
Completed the course - and for many, many years -
worked caring for the aged.
They made her a Governor of Mount Royal - after
she retired. For her it was a labour of love - she
did her job with great care and love.

Hating Russians? You can
hate the regime, but not the people - surely?
And my Gran was not one of the "invaders," - she
actually ran from the Bolshie regime as did many
of her fellow Russians. She was lucky enough to
come out to Australia with her Lithuanian husband,
(my grandfather) and my parents, as dsplaced
people, after World War II

Ok Foxy, so we can sum it up for you:

Never mind the cellulite, stretch marks and wrinkles, they simply
don't matter. The grandkid will think that you are wonderful, as
you are!

I would spend summers and sometimes more with my grandmother and grandfather in Lake Placid, N. Y. up in the Adirondack Mountains. I became very afraid of losing my grandmother. I didn’t want her or my grandfather to die. I can remember the odour of liniment that she used on her aching body. I recall her scent of clean clothes, garden and liniment. I still have her bottle of Sloan’s Liniment.

Her legs were shapeless and thick with the oedema that afflicts some old people when they retain fluids. Sloan’s Liniment helped to ease her aching body.

I asked, “Ma, why are your legs so thick?” I called her ‘Ma.’ Her children did so why shouldn’t I?

She looked at me and held me close. In a dreamy voice she said, “When I was a young and beautiful woman in Eishyshok (a small town in Lithuania) on a starry night I went swimming in the river. The smell of cedar and the reflections in the water so took me that I was not aware of the nearby water mill until I was drawn into the water wheel. I was so battered that my legs were no longer shapely when I got out. That’s why my legs are like this.”

Of course, I believed my grandmother. She was rigidly honest and would not lie to me. It was only years later that I realised that she did not want me to think of the infirmities of age. However, I did think of age. I heard that eating eggs promoted longevity so I advised my grandmother to eat eggs. Somehow, I knew this good time would not last.

In telling this story I am keeping her memory alive.

I loved my grandmother so much that my eyes tear when I think of her. May your grandchildren feel the same way.

Foxy,
As I understand it albeit third hand my birth family were peasant stock and they saw Russians as non-Latvians and as such invader/occupiers.
They also had enmity towards Catholics. This was evidenced by the unofficial orphanage refusing my brother and sister being adopted together by a Catholic Latvian family. Resulting in my sister being adopted and my brother being left in the 'home'.
Fortunately, I missed all that peasant angst and specific prejudice.....I hate everyone equally (he he he) ;-)

I'm such a naughty boy.

Dear Yabby,

Thank You from the bottom of my heart.
You big softie you!
You're pretty great yourself!
Big hug!

Dear David F,

Thank You for your kind words and for
sharing your grandmother with us on OLO.
I would be happy if my grandchild
would learn to love me at least half as much
as you loved your amazing grandmother.
When you write with such emotion - you provide
a window into the wonderful soul of the man
that is - David F.
Again - Thank You!

Dear Examinator,

I doubt if you're capable of hating
anyone. And, I don't see you as a
'naughty boy,' at all.
A boyish charmer? - Absolutely!

Foxy, I don't know about any - "granny" hormones,
this is all a new experience for me -
as a first-timer.

They'll kick in at about 3 months. Now it's your job to spoil & teach him all the bad habits you can think of. (revenge is great) I take my job very seriously. Congrats & good luck granny. ;-))

Dear Foxy,

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxy_Grandpa

Foxy Grandpa was a newspaper comic strip featuring an eponymous character, created by cartoonist Bunny Schultze (Carl Edward Schultze).

Foxy Grandpa made its first appearance on January 7, 1900. It initially ran in the New York Herald, but it moved to the New York American on February 16, 1902. Between 1901 and 1917, Foxy Grandpa was published in books, more than 30 volumes from four different publishers. The strip was also adapted to Broadway shows, and early silent films (with Foxy Grandpa played by stage performer Joseph Hart). In 1929 the strip appeared in America's first comics periodical, The Funnies. In one form or another, the strip ran into the 1930s.

The strip revolved around Foxy Grandpa, an elderly gentleman, with two mischievous grandsons (Chub and Bunt) who constantly try to trick him. Foxy Grandpa, however, always managed to get the better of the two boys, combining brains with a perverse sense of humor, while demonstrating skills at acrobatics, illustration and construction of various small devices.

From http://www.barnaclepress.com/list.php?directory=FoxyGrandpa:

Foxy Grandpa was the brainchild of cartoonist Charles Edward Schultze, aka Bunny (a childhood nickname). Unlike other old-timers in the funnies, Foxy Grandpa was always a step ahead of the strip's kids. When he joined in the fun, Grandpa was not the butt of the joke; in fact, he could be counted on to have the last laugh. He proved to be so popular that he appeared in numerous reprint books, on the stage, in song, even in several silent movie shorts. There were Foxy Grandpa pins, toys, you name it. Though he may seem quaint to us nowadays, there was a time when this Foxy Grandpa was a star.

Samples of the strip can be found at the above URL.

You're a Foxy Granny

Dear Jayb,

Thank You for your good wishes.

It feels like the hormones may have
started kicking in already.
I love holding my grandson - and hate
giving him back. I gave him his first
bath yesterday - and I think I may have
enjoyed it as much as he did.

As for teaching him things - gosh, I wish
I had the power to throw a mantle of peace
over his family and conjure up -
an arc of light to surround
this child for all of his days. I wish I had
the power to heal the world for his sake,
and prepare him well for the days ahead.
I'd like the spirit of our family from
generations past and into the future to
burst forth to bless and protect this child.

See, I told you - the hormones are raging!

Dear David F,

Thank You for 'Foxy Grandpa!'
I loved the picture of grandpa -
and it's no wonder the cartoons
were so popular!

You're an excellent teacher - and I'd like to
adopt you as my grandfather! Any child would be
blessed to have you in their family.
We're lucky to have you on OLO.
You always add a new dimension to every subject.

Dear Foxy,

It would be truly wonderful to be your grandpa. It would be even more wonderful to be my own grandpa. Any way we have the following:

I'm My Own Grandpa

Lyrics: Dwight Latham, Moe Jaffe; Music: Dwight Latham, Moe Jaffe; Played by Jerry Garcia with David Grisman

Oh, many, many years ago
When I was twenty-three
I was married to a widow
Who was pretty as can be
This widow had a grown-up daughter
Who had hair of red
My father fell in love with her
And soon the two were wed

This made my dad my son-in-law
And changed my very life
For my daughter was my mother
'Cause she was my father's wife
To complicate the matter
Though it really brought me joy
I soon became the father
Of a bouncing baby boy

This little baby then became
A brother-in-law to Dad
And so became my uncle
Though it made me very sad
For if he was my uncle
Then that also made him brother
Of the widow's grown-up daughter
Who of course is my step-mother

Chorus
I'm my own grandpa
I'm my own grandpa
It sounds funny I know
But it really is so
Oh, I'm my own grandpa

My father's wife then had a son
Who kept them on the run
And he became my grandchild
For he was my daughter's son
My wife is now my mother's mother
And it makes me blue
Because although she is my wife
She's my grandmother too

Now if my wife is my grandmother
Then I'm her grandchild
And every time I think of it
It nearly drives me wild
For now I have become
The strangest case you ever saw
As husband of my grandma
I am my own grandpa.

May you be ever gruntled!

Now Foxy, for the REALLY big question :)

Some parents, for various reasons, hand over their little fellow
to the quacks, to cut off part of his penis in what is basically
a ritual. Does your little bundle of joy escape all this, unlike
many others of his age?

Yabby,
There is some evidence to suggest that male circumcision originally had some prophylactic medical(cleanliness) purpose (keep in mind baths were optional and infrequent way back BC, and has since become ritualised. Similar reasoning for Muslim ritual washing.
There are studies claiming that circumcised men are less likely to contract aids and some penile infections.

david f - just wanted to let you know how much I'm enjoying following your posts; especially touched by what you wrote about your gran.

Also excuse me if this is off topic, but davidf I often think of an opinion I think you put a fair while ago re: use of the word 'humbled' (am I correct - was it you who pointed out how misused it is?) whenever I see the word in the news. Well everyone is experiencing humble-overdose I see with reports of Australian of the Year and sports and such. It seems that hardly anyone winning awards can think of anything else to say nowdays. I wish they had read that post about the (mis)use of the word humble :)

Yabby and Examinator. Circumcision is very rarely practiced in Australia these days, due to too many babies dying from the quite common complications of post-surgery bleeding or infection.

These sad deaths far outweighed any perceived benefits of cleanliness or supposed easier contraction of sexually transmitted diseases.

The only circumcisions allowed in public hospitals are those needed for medical reasons ( in W.A. anyway)- usually if the baby has an unusually tight foreskin or other penile abnormality. They are fully anaesthetised for these procedures.

If babies are to be circumcised for religious reasons, eg if they are Jewish , then the parents have to make their own arrangements. They usually know a Jewish doctor or a Rabbi who will do the job.

Unfortunately there are still some men who want their boy to 'look like them' and seek to have him circumcised. They will need to shop around for a sympathetic Doctor (usually an old Doctor) and try to find a private hospital to have it done.

I was a midwife in the late 80s when more circumcisions were attended than now. I held down more babies than I care to remember.

This used to involve holding a baby down flat on his back with his legs held tightly apart, while a doctor cut off the foreskin from the very sensitive and non-anaesthetised penis.
The baby screamed blue murder and was in obvious excrutiating pain.

It was truly awful to watch, and for the most part the mother waited outside and listened to the screams while daddy was elsewhere!
Needless to say, I was keen on having daddy watch the procedure while holding his son down!
It is a barbaric practice.

Dear David F,

Thank You for the song.
So very clever!
I enjoyed it immensely !

Dear Yabby,

To answer your big question -
No. He hasn't been circumsized.
That wasn't the choice of his parents -
although it would have been mine - had
they asked me - for health reasons.

Dear Examinator,

You're spot on as always!

Dear Pynch,

I agree with you - David F, certainly has the
gift of using his words superbly. He is an
excellent storyteller - and if he ever writes
his memoirs - I'd certainly buy a copy.
The author - Bryce Courtenay once declared,
"Each of us has been designed for one of two
immortal functions, either as a storyteller
or as a cross-legged listener to tales of wonder,
love and daring. When we cease to tell or listen,
then we no longer exist as a people..."

Dear Foxy,

I am writing my memoirs. However, I assume they would only be of interest to my descendants and not even all of them. My granddaughter, Melanie, used part of them for a presentation at school. She said they got a good reception. However, ninth graders are not usually discerning literary critics.

A section of my recollections:

"A German shepherd dog drank out of a toilet bowl in Poughkeepsie. Perhaps that is my earliest memory of the world not being quite right. I was a small child but knew enough not to drink out of a toilet bowl. Yet the dog did it. It bothered me greatly. I have since heard an explanation. Water is usually not changed frequently enough in a dog’s dish. The dog didn’t think of what else people do in a toilet bowl. Why should it? We go swimming in bodies of water but don’t usually think of what other bodies, human and nonhuman, do in that body of water. Fish use it as a toilet. W. C. Fields said that’s why he stuck to whiskey. This is a memoir and a family history, not a history of waste disposal, so that is the last on that subject.

I was peeling a hardboiled egg in a dining room in Springfield, Massachusetts. I was carefully trying to remove the shell and the skin under the shell. A much older relative snatched the egg from my hand. “Let me do it for you.” She rapidly removed the shell and returned the peeled egg. It had little indentations in it where her fingernails had gouged pieces of the egg. I could have done the same thing myself. I was peeling the egg slowly and carefully so the egg would emerge with a smooth unblemished surface. I resented her ‘help’ but said nothing. I suppose I have been guilty of also rushing in when the recipient of my assistance knows perfectly well what he is doing."

Dear David F,

I repeat - I for one would buy
your memoirs with the greatest
of pleasure.

You've just confirmed what I've
written about you earlier - you're
a superb storyteller bar none -
and I'm sure that there would be
heaps of other people that would
be interested in buying your book.

It would be a real page turner -
a wonderfully inspiring and
entertaining read!

Please let us know when its completed -
and where we could get hold of a copy ?

Foxy - thanks for the beaut quote! I reckon I'd buy copy of davidf's memoirs too, or any book that he authored.

I agree with you too re: circumcision although I know it's an unpopular decision these days. Two different friends (several years apart) had sons who developed phimosis (and circumcision at ages 8 and at puberty). One of those friends had boys afterwards and insisted they be circumcised; saying she'd never put a child through that again.

Suzie things sure must have changed. My son was circumcised; we did it right in the GP's surgery. We were both present and I just cuddled him on my lap. After undoing his nappy and applying a dab of anaesthetic gel, the doc injected anaesthetic straight into a vein near the pubic bone. He then put a plastic bell on the penis with an edge just under the foreskin. Catgut was wound around the indent of the bell; over the foreskin. The nappy was done up again and he didn't seem to notice. The bell and tip of the foreskin dropped off in his nappy about a week later.

This is somewhat like it, though the bell looked shorter.

http://www.circlist.com/instrstechs/plastibell.html

Thus, to quote, "Despite overwhelming evidence from urological surgeons that neoplasm of the penis is a lethal disease that can be prevented by removal of the foreskin, some physicians continue to argue against routine newborn circumcision in a highly emotional and aggressive fashion" [Dagher et al., 1973]. In the interests of public health, such ignorance must be eliminated.

http://www.circinfo.net/cancer_of_the_penis.html

The PKU test, on the other hand, WAS barbaric, though I think that particular nurse was just cruel. It's a necessary test of course.

Dear Pynch,

Both my sons were born in Los Angeles
and they were both circumsized.
It's automatically done there for
health reasons. Neither of them suffered
or were mistreated in any way. Plus,
I feel in a warm climate like Australia's
its far healthier - and I've never
regretted it being done.

Suze, I'm with you on this one! It sounds like this kid is lucky,
protected from his grandma :)

I don't buy the health argument, it is not rocket science to teach
modern kids hygiene. After, all it could be argued that all those
labias would be more hygenic if removed, yet we leave them for
you girls, as nature intended.

I was told that circumcision became popular in the US, for very
different reasons. During the Nazi times, dropping your pants to
see who was circumcised, was one way to determine who was really
Jewish and who was not. So Jewish doctors in the US popularised
it, to make sure this would never happen again.

I personally think it should be my decision, if I want to have
bits of my penis cut off or not, just as I think that you girls
should have free choice as to what you do with your labias.

If your parents wanted to cut them off, for whatever reasons, I
would protest loudly.

Dear Pynchme and Foxy, I am not trying to hang a guilt trip on anyone.
(And I know I am off subject with this, but am a passionate opponent to the practice). My father and brothers were all circumcised, as was the trend in those days.

I know things are different now than they used to be with rates of circumcision, but very few boys actually end up having to be circumcised for medical reasons.

Therefore the mass destruction of newborn foreskins was really an overkill.

If they do, then they have an anaesthetic, whereas the newborn circumcisions I attended were not afforded that luxury unfortunately.

Most boys these days (in Australia anyway)live in quite clean environments, so cleanliness is not really an issue anymore.

These days, as the little boys line up at the urinal, the ones without the foreskins will be the odd ones out. Amen to that!

Yabby wrote: I was told that circumcision became popular in the US, for very
different reasons. During the Nazi times, dropping your pants to
see who was circumcised, was one way to determine who was really
Jewish and who was not. So Jewish doctors in the US popularised
it, to make sure this would never happen again.

Dear Yabby,

I think that's nonsense. What's your source?

Dear Yabby and Suze,

The practice of circumcision is very widespread
in the US - where my two sons were born.

It is no longer regarded simply as a religious
rite.

The arguments for this operation are primarily
hygenic. It makes for greater cleanliness.
Normal infants frequently are born with a tight
and adherent foreskin that cannot be pulled back
to expose the end of the penis. Beneath it certain
secretions tend to accumulate . Occasionally
infection can set in, causing a painful inflammation.

It is frequently not possible at birth to be sure
which babies may have such troubles later on.
If one waits, a fair percentage of foreskins that
are difficult to retract at birth may be normally
retractable later. But the operation of circumcision
becomes much more troublesome with each passing week.

On the newborn infant - the incision is quick, the
pain fleeting. The infant does not seem to be
uncomfortable once the operation has been completed.
But an older infant is much more aware of body
sensations. He will also need anesthesia, which
requires that all feedings be withheld for at least
eight hours. This, in itself is a formidable undertaking.

As a medical procedure - circumcision is usually
done at any time during the newborn's week in hospital.
It is customary not to perform the procedure on a baby
bordering on premature size.

The religious ritual of circumcision must be performed
on the eight day following birth. It may be deferred
if the condition of the child is not satisfactory at
this time, but it cannot be done earlier for any reason.

As I stated earlier - my two boys were circumsized
automatically in Los Angeles - for health reasons.

Dear Suze,

I understand your feelings on this subject - your
experiences were different to mine with this - and
don't worry you're not laying any guilt-trip on me.
I know that your intentions are only the best!

Foxy, a snip from Wickipedia:

*There are several hypotheses to explain why infant circumcision was accepted in the United States about the year 1900. The germ theory of disease elicited an image of the human body as a conveyance for many dangerous germs, making the public "germ phobic" and suspicious of dirt and bodily secretions. The penis became "dirty" by association with its function, and from this premise circumcision was seen as preventative medicine to be practised universally.[22] In the view of many practitioners at the time, circumcision was a method of treating and preventing masturbation.*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision

Its hardly as straight forward as you claim, never mind my human
rights to determine about my sexual organs. Unless of course you
agree that parents should have rights to snip off parts of your
labias too! It gets pretty yucky down there sometimes :)

David F, that is what a number of older Europeans told me, when
I asked about it, many years ago now. In Central Europe few kids
were circumcised, not so in the US and some other English speaking
countries. The US is of course also the most religious and
puritanical Western country on the planet

Dear Yabby,

I was born in the US in 1925. Most boys born in that time were circumcised whether they were Jewish or not. It had nothing at all to do with the Nazis or the Jewish reaction to the Nazis. It is simply not true regardless of what you were told.

Yabby, I agree with David f. Although, I think, it was a protestant verses Catholic thing. In North Queensland in the early 1900 untill the WW2 the availability of Preachers & Doctors in some of the small towns had a lot to do with what you were Christened & whether you got the cut or not. My fathers family of 9 (3 boys)were all different Religious Denominations & only my father, b.1921, being the youngest & 18 years later then the rest, was circumsized. The Nazi thing is rubbish.

'Unfortunately there are still some men who want their boy to 'look like them' and seek to have him circumcised.'

Suze, you're a master of spin.

For every one of these men there is a new mother who thinks a circumsized penis just 'looks nicer'. I saw a documentary with a woman like that just the other day.

Probably the same types of women who never give head anyway.

Foxy,

'and I've never
regretted it being done.'

Have your sons?;-)

pynchme,

'I agree with you too re: circumcision '

Oh that doesn't surprise me at all! It's a wonder you don't offer your services at hospitals.

Of course, women are born perfect, the natural male needs bits cut off his sex organs.

If there were some medical justification for any part of a woman's sex organs to be routinely cut off, there would be an outcry from feminists about the misogynist patriarchy brutalising and disfiguring women's natural beautiful sex organs.

No cry to the contrary when it's men's bodies of course. When the historically male medical fraternity decides mutilating little boys genitals is the best thing, it's considered a valid trade-off, best medical knowledge of the time etc.

But if it were little girls, well, it'd be considered blatant misogyny, a human rights issue, men deciding what's best for women where they have no business having an opinion, the full monty! You only need to look at the natural birth groups who demonise all those nasty male doctors who dare to save woman's lives through caesareans to know it's true. Hands off women's bodies! Birth is natural!

But with foreskins, well, even though I'm a woman, I think I can make the call. As Foxy says, she never regretted it.

Now, where is James...

Houellebecq, I really don't think this is the forum to discuss sexual practice preferences......you might want to try adult.com.

After my comment that many men had their son's circumcised because they wanted them to look like themselves,
Houellebecq rants, <" For every one of these men there is a new mother who thinks a circumsized penis just 'looks nicer'. I saw a documentary with a woman like that just the other day."

I'm sorry, but how many new mothers and fathers have you had this discussion with at the time that circumcision was in vogue? None?

I had the chat with many hundreds of new parents.
Guess what?
Daddy almost always had the first and last say about sonny's penis, and that's a fact.

Dear Yabby and Houellie,

This is not an issue for me guys!

Circumsize or don't, - the choice is
up to you as parents. My grandson wasn't, -
and I think that's fair enough!

As I tried to politely explain to the
Yabster - my two sons were born in
Los Angeles - where it was done
automatically - as part of the normal
procedure of that time - for hygenic
reasons. And it's never been an issue
for them.

If it's such a big deal for you guys -
then take my advice and don't have
anything snipped.

cont'd ...

For your information - (and your sons),
to keep you up to date:

http://www.circinfo.com/benefits/bmc.html
The Benefits of Male Circumcision.

*If it's such a big deal for you guys -
then take my advice and don't have
anything snipped.*

Ah Foxy, I am fortunate, my parents had
nothing snipped, despite living in America
when I was born in the 50s. What I am questioning
is the right of parents, to go snipping away at
kids genitals, for whatever reason. If your parents
had chopped off parts of your genitals, you might be
more empathetic on this!

But I know plenty of Jewish boys at boarding school, who
would have given anything to have their snipped bits back.

Suze is correct and Wickipedia verifies it, plenty of families
want the sons to look like the fathers, so that is why it was
commonly done. Luckily times have changed.

David F, if you read the Wickipedia article, it states that
in the 1930s in the US, around 30% or so of boys were done,
clearly not the majority. It was after the war that circumcision
really took off in the USA. Read the article yourself.

JayB, I was talking about Central Europe not outback Queensland.

Dear Yabby,

You didn't read the website I gave
you did you?

But, as I keep telling you -
I don't have an issue with this.
To each his own!

Just read the website though ...

Dear Foxy,

You did not read the Wickipedia website did you? It is
far less biased.

In retrospect trying to google for information that
might justify your actions, is a lame duck excuse
dear. At least stick to objective information.

Get off Foxys case you lot. She is the Grandmother, not the parents. If you have issues take it up with them. Bloody hell, talk about busybodies sticking their noses in on personal issues. & I say you are all, Out of Line, Politically Incorrect, Discriminatory & anything else I can think of. Scheeech!

Just enjoy being a Grandma Foxy & stuff 'em.

Hi all, am actually glad I read all of these comments on circumcision after Foxy becoming a grandmother [a very special and wonderful time in any person's life] and terrific you shared your life with everyone Foxy.

For many years [my son is now 15yrs] I have felt GUILTY and concerned for him that he was NOT circumcised. By 1994 in Australia times had changed with medical views and the GP advised against it. Actually two G.Ps. Farmer husband at the time was annoyed [as he'd been circumcised. I could only think of the immediate dreadful pain, and as my son already had pain with reflux, could not face him going through any more for initial 12mths.

To date he is a little farmer who is quite grotty and sloppy with his showering habits and never had an infection or smell emanating from his body. However, I did read recently, that during or after puberty, when he is growing, problems regarding non-circumcised teenage boys may arise. Every now and then am thinking it may be wise to book an appt with a GP [he refuses to go really anytime for anything] to discuss.

I should have made time to surf the net over the years. However, prior to his turning 8yrs old he adamantly refused and later, so too his father.

Dear Yabby,

I referred to what I saw in Lake Placid, NY and Syracuse, NY which is where I went to school. I did not inspect male apparatus in the entire United States.

I have two grandsons. The one in California is cut. The one in Delaware isn’t. East is east, and west is less. It was the choice of their parents. I had no say in it.

Frances Drake impressed Queen Elizabeth because he circumcised the globe with a forty foot cutter.

It has also affected the music world. In Israel there is a drum quartet called the foreskins.

The products of the procedure are useful. A surgeon specializing in circumcision saved a large number of foreskins as mementos. He took his specimens to a leathersmith and asked him to make something from them. When the surgeon returned the leathersmith gave him a wallet. "All those foreskins and you only made me a wallet?" "Yes, but if you stroke it, it becomes a briefcase."

Dear Yabby,

I haven't been able to respond to your
post due to my having used up my quota.
Anyway, here I am...

Yes, of course I read you website!
Although I didn't see the relevance
of it - it was mainly historical stuff -
that had no bearing on me or my family.

David F, told you of his experiences in
the US. I told you of mine - it appears
that the only person who's making an issue
out of all this is you - and that perplexes
me somewhat. We're not pushing circumcision.
As we've all said - the decision is up to
the parents of the child. End of story.

As for the website I quoted - I simply
thought that you may be interested in
actually reading what a practising medical
practitioner had to say on the subject -
and his reasons for advocating the procedure.
This was done purely because - of the
"conspiracy" theory that you were presenting
as your argument for why doctors did it in the
US. I was not trying to "twist" any facts to
suit any agenda. As I said - for me this is
not an issue. I've moved on and I suggest
you do the same.

Dear Jayb,

Thank You so much for your leaping to my defence.
I'm actually fine with all this. The only person
that took me back somewhat was Houellie - but I
don't take him seriously - as he tends to use OLO
as a urinal - for his "fun and entertainment."

Dear We are Unique,

Welcome to OLO!

Thank You for sharing your experience with us.
And, yes, we are all unique! I'm sure what
you've decided for your son - is the best
for him!

Dear David F,

I love the wallet story!

It made me laugh out loud!

As did Queen Elizabeth, Drake, and the cutter!

What a marvellous response!

Well, it looks like this thread has run its
course. I would just like to take this
opportunity to firstly Thank - Examinator
for starting this thread on my behalf.
It was totally unexpected - and a delightful
surprise. And, I'd also like to Thank everyone
who found the time and inclination to Congratulate
this first time grandmother - and wish her well.

From the bottom of my heart - Thanks to you one and
all!

I've printed off all of your comments - and they're
going into my grandson's album - which he'll get
when he's old enough to appreciate it.

Big hug.