Well, we'll soon know if Turnbull keeps on top of the news, or just ignores it. It was interesting to see "our", or perhaps, their ABC twist & turn, trying to worm out of the truth.

There can be no way that any intelligent, or honest person, or even a polly, could vote for a carbon trading scheme, with the revelation, of the antics the main warmers have been up to, to try to keep the true facts from comming out.

You would think that even Kruddy would take a pull, if global warming had anything to do with his policy. Of course, most of us know it doesn't, but will any of the true believers do some personal thinking, or still just follow.

Watch out for flying pigs folks.

So we have the last chance for Turnbull to wake up, & do the right thing by the people of Oz. My bet is he won't have enough sense, so it's up to the rest of them. Are they worth the space they take? Do they have the guts to kick trottingbull out? We'll soon know.

Are there any of them with the guts to hold their heads up, & say, enough? I doubt it.

Hasbeen, I doubt it myself.

I feel his main focus is on avoiding a 'double dissolution election' rather than what's good for the nation and our future moving forward.

Just the mere fact that the likes of the US and China are not committing to an ETS should be reason enough to hold off, at least until we see what comes out of the Copenhagen conference.

There are so many sectors on the brink of collapse, retail and manufacturing as an example. Then there are those who look most certain of loosing their jobs due to the failed ‘jobs creation schemes’, like ‘solar’ and ‘insulation’.

Car manufacturers and sellers alike may well topple after January 1 when the 50%‘business write off’ ceases.

We also face the prospect of increased services, water, power etc.

Now is not the time to place yet another hurdle in front of us.

Let’s hope, for our sakes, that the rest of them have what it takes to say no!

turnbull has been told...like kevie been told

its a done deal

any disolution shall reveal...its the 2 parties
run by omnipotan/figure heads
that is our biggest true threat
that really exposed their joint adgenda

we chose which hand hits us next
as the same elites/media/bankers...

set their law
into global; governance...
non elected...elete world body

finance by co2/tax.. from our breath
a tax on breathing
its brilliant

a tax on runners/[breathing heavey
or a tax on carbonated..[with co2 ] soft drink

Climatic Research Unit Hacked E Mails & Data

Wikileaks
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Climatic_Research_Unit_emails%2C_data%2C_models%2C_1996-2009

http://88.80.16.63/leak/climactic-research-unit-foi-leaked-data.zip

Summary

This archive presents over 120Mb of emails, documents, computer code and models from the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, written between 1996 and 2009.

The CRU has told the BBC that the files were obtained by a computer hacker 3-4 days ago.

This archive includes unreleased global temperature analysis computer source code that has been the subject of Freedom of Information Act requests.

The archive appears to be a collection of information put together by the CRU prior to a FoI redaction process.

DOWNLOAD/VIEW FULL FILE FROM
fastest (Sweden), current site,
http://www.prisonplanet.com/leak/climactic-research-unit-foi-leaked-data.zip

slow (US),

http://88.80.13.160.nyud.net/leak/climactic-research-unit-foi-leaked-data.zip

Finland,
http://wikileaks.fi/leak/climactic-research-unit-foi-leaked-data.zip

Netherlands, Poland, Tonga, Europe, SSL, Tor
http://www.prisonplanet.com/climatic-research-unit-hacked-e-mails-data.html

RELATED: Hacked Emails Show Climate Science Ridden with Rancor
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125883405294859215.html

RELATED: Caught red-handed in a monumental fraud, disgraced Climategate scientists settle on a ludicrous defense
http://tomnelson.blogspot.com/2009/11/caught-red-handed-in-monumental-fraud.html

RELATED: E-mail leak turns up heat on global warming advocates
http://www.bostonherald.com/business/general/view.bg?articleid=1213483&srvc=business&position=recent

RELATED: Stolen e-mails reveal venomous feelings toward climate skeptics
http://www.prisonplanet.com/stolen-e-mails-reveal-venomous-feelings-toward-climate-skeptics.html

RELATED: CLIMATE BOMBSHELL: Hacker leaks thousands of emails showing conspiracy to “hide” the real data on manmade climate change
http://www.prisonplanet.com/climate-bombshell-hacker-leaks-thousands-of-emails-showing-conspiracy-to-hide-the-real-data-on-manmade-climate-change.html

Prison Planet.tv Members Can Watch Fall Of The Republic
http://prisonplanet.tv/

This tax will go through whether the earth is warming or not. It covers the loss of revenue as oil starts to dry up and is infinite (will never dry up again) The perfect tax a Polly could ever dream of!

So what to do? Make sure you put plenty of gel on and visit Dr. Ben Dover, I hope it doesn't hurt too much :(

Leaving climate change man made or not ,true or not, lets look at facts.
John Howard demi Gog living legend of conservatives included such a scheme in his last campaign.
He said yesterday this was about the same as his.
Turnbull is not the right man to bring conservatives out of the very deep mud, he could have been but they would not let him.
Who is, surely not that joke Abbot? or the former minister for immigration trying to look not dead as he truly is.
Just look at the population of the world 50 years ago.
Then now, and then in another 50 years.
Can anyone be sure man is not polluting this planet? has not had some affect on climate change?
Yes the e mails are interesting, highlight stupidity, on both sides of the debate.
A double election late January would have done little good for the conservatives.
Turnbull is for the time the only leader conservatives have Wilson Tucky would be better throwing his stones at My mob rather his own side.

Mr Rudd and Ms Wong are to be congratulated for being shrewd enough to take advantage of the deluded Mr Turnbull. If he had of listened to some reason instead of being a me too United nations sucker he would not find himself in this position.

Any one with half a brain knows this tax is not about cleaning up pollution. The environmentalist themselves are among the greatest vandals. They fly off to their talk fests and consume as much if not more than the average. They put on a superior cloak and many have now been found out corrupt in lying to the world. A few brave men sacrificed their positions instead of continuing the propaganda swallowed by many. The science is settled alright. And it certainly is not in favour of the earth worshipers.

I'm actually hoping that Turnbull gets rolled this evening, and that the Coalition goes into a double dissolution election with the Mad Monk or the gormless Kevin Andrews as their leader.

The ETS/CPRS as now proposed has been so compromised as to be worse than useless.

Malcolm has chosen the wrong path.He has elected to to fall in line with his global central bank masters.

There is an underground internet resistence that will see Kevin Rudds New World Govt or new world order come asunder.

This carbon tax is nothing but a scam.Al Gore is the best con man we've seen since Bai Lin Tea.

Malcolm got his way - squeaked in by 1 vote.

That means half his party room doesn't support him.

We may yet see Kevin Andrews or Tony Abbott at the helm - EGAD!

Will one of you enlightened prophets please explain how and why this is a global scam, who is behind it and who is going to make the so-called billions out of it?

(Try to avoid references to Illuminati if possible).

good question...ok lets say start with the farmers

and the coal industry..to who..7 billion was given away today

then the tax...[5 percent...on everything bought and sold]

this goes to the carbon credit exchange/dealers..[who sell off the extra credits....getting commission..for the carbon securities exchange

[the carbon credit/market..is estitmated at 2 trillion per year]..rising to twenty billion 2020...who gets the money isnyt as important as who will pay it

all...of us...
except you lot
that got special dispensation to polute

Runner, arjay, one under God, good grief have we all gone mad?
My in box is full of bigotry, not from a cult, but from mainstream Christians.
Full of hate and spite about? another religion.
Yes CJM this scheme is no longer a system just a traded down shadow of one.
Runner I truly wonder are you a Christian? or from a cult?
Your blind bigotry is not at least from the Christ I grew up with.
Arjay do you understand your reality is not real?
Today right now the Australian conservative movement is in a place my ALP once was, after the Catholic church/DLP split it.
This blind self damage may take two decades to fix, yes 20 years, who today can lead them back on track?
Can anyone tell me what gains can be made by opposing this in the house?
Yet rest assured it has not passed yet, it may not, and that election if it comes will bring great drama to us all.

yes interesting..end times eh belly..so what else can ya do..this is the biggest piece of economical re-engeneering..[tony abbot]

and thats egsactly whast it is..a sceme raised many times by impotant leaders...last time it was thatcher..wanted to do it cause of the then global cooling

mate your smart enough to realise..this is something..both parties essentially shall be shut up on...dont pretend labour is in unity about it...its just the current god head ..has come down the mountain

covered in entrails and cigar smoke...and informed the party machine men...of the new law...the latest sceme...even called the latest sceme

the so called new world order they hope to buy into..by selling out their people...and giving away the common weal..this is nothing to do with climate...and everything to do with getting more tax..out of any idiot..with a credit card

we get the govt we deserve...and the current one..is revealing its dirty..both sides of the two party coin...not to mention that green scum..on the rim..to the right and the left..of who-ever's face of each side..faces upwards today

im not now...nor have ever been a mainstream xtian...i leave that aspect of party poli-tricks..[pontification..to those reading the entrails..pressed into the pages of their messengers books

It is interesting to see the Rothschilds are major sponsors of Green Peace.

Kevin Rudd speaks about a new world Govt along with Gordon Brown,the Clintons ,Barack Obama,Henry Kissenger,both of the Bushes,Penny Wong etc.They all see a Global World Govt being necessary to save us from the boogey man CO2.

The Hadley Centre emails have proven that the scientists are doctoring the stats to suit their agendas.Why all this urgency from Kevin? Well he has made promises that good old Aust will lead the charge into oblivian,so he will get a top post at the UN.This is the ultimate nervana for a lobotomised bureaucrat.

This game is about a Corporate Elite who want to rule the planet.The evidence is here; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VebOTc-7shU

Money apparently buys anything,even the betrayal of your own species.

Dear Hasbeen,

You aren't from WA by any chance are you?
You and Tuckey sound very much alike.
We're all aware of his "all-knowingness."

However, any person with even half a brain
should realize that the planet has been
polluted since the start of the industrial age.
And any clean-up of the ever increasing pollution
of the atmosphere especially carbon emissions would
be beneficial to the humans living on this planet,
even those who don't believe in climate change -
should realize that. And, that's what the emissions
trading scheme is all about - cleaning up the
atmosphere.

Have you ever driven behind a diesel-powered bus or
truck? Then you should understand what pollution is!
In a fire people die primarily from smoke inhalation.
The planet is being killed off slowly by pollutants
in the atmoshpere (that we also breathe). Something
needs to be done if we're to survive on this planet.

Blaming the PM and the Leader of the Opposition for
trying to do the right thing not only for us, but
for future generations is extremely short-sighted,
and self-centred and only encouraged by ambitious,
opportunistic politicians, who don't give a damn
about anything except their own private agendas.

So Foxy, how are we supposed to reach this pollution free utopia, with a bucket load of Duracells eh? Oops! They make CO2 as well hmmm.
I know, rubber band powered cotton spools and a redhead match, that will surely power my fridge for a decade or more and will surely get me to work pollution free for ever; just as long as we don't cut down too many poplars or rubber trees. But oh no, Mr Lipsticks 20 million more migrants will certainly thin out the poplars, back to the drawing board :(

Perhaps I'll start manufacturing treadmills with dynamos, made of earth and rock of course with the aid of a stone axe and scraper; then we can all get thin while we freeze last nights left over Mc Donalds for the kids to take to school. You know those schools in walking distance not because buses make too much pollution and those damn crooks in parliament have closed all the routes from lack of funding.

Yep this tax will go a long way to creating a pollution free utopia from a country with the carbon footprint of a burning toothpick compared to our bigger neighbours.

Anyone got a spoke shave for sale, I'll pay good money for a sharp one. I'm gunna need it to build me wagon so I can collect me water from the empty river coz some moron drained it to water 20 million losers from some other despotic country!

Save the planet they say! From what, for who? Rats in a cage could have done a better job of running things. Now they want me and my family and all of you to bail them out over a lie, good one batman!

under one god,

Are you seriously claiming that every one of us drones will be taxed on all our goods by our respective Governments and the proceeds simply given to polluters as an incentive to keep on polluting?

Is this generous handout why the Coal Industry is spending it's money on TV campaigns to whine about losing revenue and trying to get an exclusion from any ETS?

Dear RawMustard,

I appreciate the hot air you've just generated.
If we gather enough like-minded individuals,
we should be able to generate enough hot air
to power not only this country, but the whole
planet.

Keep it up - you're doing a good job for the
environment!

The Raw Mustards of this world give me great joy.
True, so far from reality or understanding he/she should be on the front bench of the Liberals.
No I must admit Nationals, so lost so apart from logic only they have the home and seat required.
Turnbull now, without doubt is a dead man walking, nothing, not even magic can save him.
History may well confirm my view conservatives face the very same danger the DLP split bought to my party, and the same time in the wilderness.
While I clearly was wrong in once thinking he had some chance of re building his party, he at least wanted to head it into the only ground that grows governments in this country.
The center.
He failed, beaten more by Howard's left overs in his own team as any thing.
Look at posts from conservatives here, see clearly the self harm, the refusal to see the ETS was and is something both sides took to the last election, in other forms but no way unlike this.
If you are unhappy about a reef in front of your boat it is not wise to ram it, politics has always been about compromise.

yes wobbles i am...saying we got our new new world order tax..so are many of your worlds leaders
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBFo_uz_jG0

its a clever tax...capped ensures the costs of carbon will increase/daily...as the marketeering..[racqueteering securities traders..set its value..in real time...this is intended to be global

one report on the affects was revesaled last night[without the carbon tax electricity in qld...is going to go up 40 percent...with the tax it is expected to double

just..that latest lot of 'extra'..gifts...of licence to emit carbon..to the lib party boss/men...negotiated in colluded obstanacy..costs each of us 4000...this is exclusive of the other gifts gifted to the labourite bossmen

but you lot couldnt care less...

you have failed to notice the gst..failed to notice the frequent..fear campains..sars /birdflue/swine/humnan hybred flue.,,pannics...while the global stockmarket melted down..and so much more..people are required to endure...

like the lack of news in the news..and the total lack of facts/detail/science..appart from colluded conclusions...and how business needs their proffitable..'certainty'.....assembled by the servants of the lattest world order

you failed to notice..the new way..of immediate threatt/danger...like the recent meltdown/bailout/..or govt largess..spent to big business because the beatup/fear..gets it through govt...in a rush

yes f9oxy bthere is polution...that is harmfull to our health and well being...but its not arbon/../you might be dumbstruck to find your compost bin emites as much methane as a herd of cows..or that you crappp in water...[first quality fleurided water...noting flueride is a metal/waste product...from petrol refining..and cant work on your bones..but works its vile on your muscles/brains/nerves

see calcide/fluerides need magnesium..to absorb into bone...and same re iodine...being refined from our food...causing quasimoto disease,...nessitating the taking of high priced medication

but such is the sleep of the mindless
enjoy the silence

OUG how up pulling up a bit bloke?you end that rambling post claiming those who do not agree are asleep.
I constantly see references to others like that in your posts.
In truth you are no font of wisdom fella, and in truth I have no doubt none, that you are wrong in your views about WFC

So I take it you two jokers live in a bark hut, extract your nutrients from the vacuum of space and after excreting a bit of it to these forums, excrete the rest back to that same vacuum? Because if you don't, you're just a bunch of hypocrites!

Now I know you don't do that, but you would have us plebs trying to do that so that you and your mates can live in your mansions eating lobster and caviar all day, while you pat yourselves on the back for saving us plebs from our own stupid demise!

You polly-ticks are all the same, I've yet to meet one that wasn't all about me, me, me!

Now answer me two simple questions.

1) How pray tell is the ETS going to save us from our own stupid demise without transferring huge wads of cash to all the polly-ticks and making it much harder for us stupid plebs?

2) How is a country with the carbon footprint of a toothpick going to save us stupid plebs from all those billions of stupid plebs in Asia and Africa, that in comparison have a carbon footprint of a small sun?

Riddle me those boy wonders? Without your rhetorical bullsh!t

>>Do they have the guts to kick trottingbull out? We'll soon know.

Are there any of them with the guts to hold their heads up, & say, enough? I doubt it.<<

Looks like they did have the guts although they waited for the very end of question time for the year to do so. They'd have been sitting ducks if they'd done it any earlier.

My guess is that the party will realise the backbenchers need to have the strongest leader possible and the leader needs to have his best team on board. For the party to have any credibility, they'll have to come up with a compromise position where those with strong views will not lose face, but where the party can still regroup and move forward. However, they'll have to leave the dinosaurs behind a la "the caravan moves on but the dogs are still barking".

It looks like the Mad Monk is going to take a tilt at the Liberal leadership. That pretty well guarantees at least another term for the Rudd government, I reckon.

Who'd vote for Abbott except for intransigent climate delusionists and dyed-in-the-wool godbotherers?

so lets figure the gst time bomb..into the new tax...

as the costs increase...so to the gst...it seems like double taxation...a tax on a tax...and has anyone mentioned penalties..for seeking to minimise or avoid this new tax impost

penny is explaining..we will need to buy in overseas...carbon credits[on top of those they issued for free]...this is an ecomonic issue...if we move today,...we save 17 percent...lol

and their take goes up 100 percent

yes people are sleeping...think why this tax[capped tax...and not forcing legislation changes...on the big poluters...because the govt and poluters want this new cash cow

its is noted that govt assistance neatly avoids helping small buisness[the ca]]p for govt assistance ..begins with 40,000...any lesser eleticity users...ie all small business...get the up to 40 percent increase

we seen how petrol jumps arround..to the advantage of big petro
watch the costs /plus...be passed on to the conned sumer...you the sleepers

Tony Abbott was foolish to go along with the gw fantasy in the first place. He mislead Turnbull which was plainly wrong. In saying that it is a relief that the mums and dads are not going to be robbed by the Government just so Mr Rudd and Ms Wong can skite in CopenHagen. Fancy being low enough to slug heavy taxes on people just to look good in front of other socialist. Talk about selling out national interests.
Mr Turnbull would be better to join the deluded Greens. He would fit in with the earth worshipers as a true believer of dogma. He would need to practice his rebellion and violence however for the next protest before becoming a fully fledged member.

Dear CJ,

According to this morning's news assessment it's
now - Shreck for President (Hockey), and the Mad
Monk to handle the purse...:-)

Dear Raw Mustard,

We in Australia have never had the nouse to set
the example and have always imported "experts" from
overseas to tell us what to do. While our
talent went overseas and improved things for
other nations. We never liked "tall poppies."
And our attitude has always been, to keep
doing what we're doing, and keep getting what we've
got.

Today, in the 21st Century - we must step up and
take our responsibilities seriously. The whole
purpose of the ETS is to facillitate creative
inventions of alternative energy thus creating a new
development of industry and employment. While phasing
out current polluting practices. The government has
facted in the costs for this process. And unless we
undertake this program immediately it's going to cost
the nation and its people a lot more than can be
imagined. Take a dam with a small crack seeping water...
we can plug the crack and save the dam or we can ignore
it, watch the dam collapse, and destroy everything
below in the valley. Can you sacrifice the valley?

By the way, I'm not a bloke, I don't live in a bark-hut,
nor in a Mansion. I'm a young wife and mother, working
full-time, raising a family alongside my husband, and
paying our taxes, and watching the effect of fire, floods
high-winds, drought, famine, rising sea-levels, and
wondering what the future will bring for my grandchildren...

“The ETS/CPRS as now proposed has been so compromised as to be worse than useless.” (CJ Morgan 24 November)

Yes CJ, I fear that you are right.

I support Turnbull in his desire to do something about climate change and to have the gumption to align the opposition with the government on this. But really, with the concessions that his party has won, which weakened an already weak package, it is pretty useless.

In fact, it is worse than useless because it essentially means that we’ll be able to continue with business as usual while pretending to do something meaningful about carbon pollution reduction.

This means that Minchin and his ilk may well be right in that an ETS (a piss-weak one of the sort that is on the table) will just destroy jobs and raise prices without achieving anything tangible in terms of climate change, renewable energy and sustainability.

And then we’ve got the layer that no one seems to be talking about at all. This is our very rapidly growing population and consequent rapidly increasing CO2 output, which would continue to happen even if the average per-capita output was to be reduced a bit. This just makes a complete mockery of the concept of significantly reducing greenhouse gas emissions even if we did manage to implement a reasonable ETS.

“It looks like the Mad Monk is going to take a tilt at the Liberal leadership. That pretty well guarantees at least another term for the Rudd government, I reckon.” (CJ Morgan 27 November)

Oh dear ohdear odear. Abbot as the leader of the Libs! Can you really imagine that?! That’ll just about make Rudd an untouchable dictator! He’ll literally be able to do what he damn well likes without fearing losing power ( :>|

Well, Belly, you sure got it right about trotting bull, didn't you? The only bloke to lead the liberal party. Well, if like your mob, you ment to dictate to the party, you were right.

Now we see him for what he is. "If I can't have it, I'll try to destroy it". Nice bloke. On a par with Krudd, but not as rat cunning. I think you blokes had John Howard warming up that rodent tag, just for your bloke. If ever there was a cunning rat in that job, Krudd is it. Why don't you lot have a bull sh1t detector among you.

Just in passing, even if you won't believe it, I am not a supporter of any party, & most definately not a liberal.

I would probably have voted for your lot, if you had left the real man you had in charge, rather than the slime ball we all now have.

..the system is broke..the new/tax..is only to/..try and push..a broken-system..into..its next bubble...regradless/of..its cost...

..they need..this bailout[the tax]
but..its bound to fail...un-employed dont spend much

so here is..the new deal..we pass the tax..IMMEDIATLY...but with a sunset/clause...for a full-reviuw...in 2012



this gets us..out of the immediate/meltdown...
that will/..force our best leaders..into treason

THE SUNSET CLAUSE...must be/set in stone...give..what they want....immediatly...to test/..their way...

BUT..HAVE A FULL YEAR..TO REVIEUW...this global..warming deception...put it..all..on trial...in 2 year's...time

[not..lol..start it..in two years..[immediate/cetainty/2 years..

we want this gone...because the elites..will get this...even though it is bound to fail

joe wont run...if turnbull..is in

putting it off...the best/solution...because..its based on lies



http://www.prisonplanet.com/momentum-grows-for-copenhagen-climate-deal.html

http://www.infowars.com/hot-climategate-debate-scientists-clash-live-on-rt/

http://www.prisonplanet.com/climategate-master-criminal-phil-jones-collected-22-6-million-in-grants.html

http://www.infowars.com/gore-says-supercomputing-can-be-killer-app-in-climate-change/

Climate change:..this is the worst scientific/scandal of our generation
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/6679082/Climate-change-this-is-the-worst-scientific-scandal-of-our-generation.html

Scientists..at the University of East Anglia..(UEA)..have admitted..throwing away..much of the raw temperature data..on which their predictions of global warming..are based.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/climategate-spells-end-to-the-false-science-of-climate-change.html

Climategate:..The Silence is Deafening..from the Corporate Media
http://www.prisonplanet.com/climategate-the-silence-is-deafening-from-the-corporate-media.html

By now..most of us..in the alternative media.are aware of the some 61 megabytes..of global warming research data of emails,..documents,..and computer code..released by whistleblowers

that have exposed/climate scientists,..at the University of East Anglia in Great Britain,..as the frauds..they’ve proven themselves to be.


“Climategate”..surpasses..“Global Warming”.on Google
http://www.prisonplanet.com/%e2%80%9cclimategate%e2%80%9d-surpasses-%e2%80%9cglobal-warming%e2%80%9d-on-google.html

http://www.prisonplanet.com/climategate-for-dummies.html


Lord Monckton:..Shut Down The UN,..Arrest Al Gore
http://www.prisonplanet.com/lord-monckton-shut-down-the-un-arrest-the-warmist-criminals.html

Appearing..on The Alex Jones-Show..yesterday,..Lord Christopher Monckton..went further than ever before..in his vehement opposition to..the elitists..running the climate change..scam,

http://www.prisonplanet.com/more-on-the-niwa-new-zealand-data-adjustment-story.html

UN scientists..turn on each other:..UN Scientist..Declares Climategate colleagues Mann,Jones and Rahmstorf..’should be barred from the IPCC process’..They are..‘not credible/..any more’

http://climatedepot.com/a/4100/UN-scientists-turn-on-each-other-UN-Scientist-Declares-Climategate-colleagues-Mann-Jones-and-Rahmstorf-should-be-barred-from-the-IPCC-process--They-are-not-credible-any-more

A UN scientist..is declaring..that his three fellow UN climate/panel colleagues..“should be barred..from the IPCC process.”
http://www.prisonplanet.com/the-great-climate-change-science-scandal.html

lots of key-word links
http://www.prisonplanet.com/un-scientists-turn-on-each-other-un-scientist-declares-climategate-colleagues-mann-jones-and-rahmstorf-should-be-barred-from-the-ipcc-process-they-are-not-credible-any-more.html

from the 2 posts above this one it is hard to say what one is the most lost and unfocused.
But while The childlike Krudd stuff is a sure sign of lack of ability to put ones thoughts into words it still amuses me.
Tomorrow morning, driven by the party membership, and the very Right of that party.
Proving a chasm has opened between to once liberal Liberals and the Howard very right, we see blood letting.
We see a man few respect Abbott, with help bring down Turnbull.
At a time he never looked more a leader.
And Hockey , about a year before his time, fill the death seat.
Forgetting it takes far more than party members to win an election, or that world wide more fear global warming than not, we see Liberals put a band aid on a traumatic open wound.
And we see hard headed, people unaware elections must be won in the middle, forget that driving two away to keep one is a death sentence.
Turnbull should enter NSW Parliament, he could get in by a landslide and watch as his old ship sinks.
In time they would beg him to return.

Tony Abbot new leader so we can look forward to Kevin11, Kevin27, Kevin37.....

For once I agree with you, Missus :)

Finally a voice of reason leading the Liberals. Much better to lose an election with Abbott than to win with Mr Rudd's me too man Turnbull is is more interested in winning UN brownie points than the national interest. It also means the Labour loving press to stop pushing their dogmas and lies when it comes to man made climate change. Abbot will also draw attention to Mr Rudd's miserable performance in encouraging illegals to risk and lose their lives. I suspect the Labour party will be to gutless to have an early election as Rudd tries to impose this immoral tax that has been exposed.

Turnbull is gone, good. Never liked Abbot, especially his role in the jailing of Pauline, but he is against the ETS which is good.

Hope the Senate votes down the ETS, which would cost us heaps and do nothing about our enviroment.

'Climategate' ensures the theory of AGW is crumbling as the main stream media take up the story of the deceit and fudging of the figures. CRU and the IPCC reputations are shot.

Interesting to see how the next year plays out.

Rudd says to delay the ETS is a denial of AGW, does that include Obama, who seems procrastinating?

'Cap and trade' for US does not seem likely soon.

Focus children,
Congratulation to Minchin, Robb and co, Tactically it worked to gain power but for how long? Was this part of their long game to peg Rudd back? I think so.
They won by ONE vote, ONE person voted informally. (ABC news) Hardly a stable majority.
Out goes the ETS? Hmm, perhaps maybe just delayed.

Shock Hockey defeat! well OK I read it wrong.

Good news for Labor in Liberal marginal seats. Sources emailed me telling that one (a fellow catholic conservative) was 'heavied' to sacrifice his publicly declared stance on ETS, in favour of the Mad Monk.

Watch the changes in shadow cabinet to confirm the lurch to the conservative end of the spectrum.

The questions are now 'Has Hockey sunk his chances for the foreseeable future including after the next two lib losses?

Will Abbott survive? Will Turnbull create a by election or will he now destabilise especially if Copenhagen get a reasonable policy up.

Watch the end game. Has this undermined Rudd ? what will his response be? Will he get sucked into a Double dissolution?

Abbott wins!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGHHH!! !! !! !!

( ;>O ( :>O ( :>0 ( ;>0 ( :>o ( ;>o | :>o |;>| ):>| ):>( );> {

The libs now have their Mark Latham equivalent although that approach did not seem to go so well for Labor.

Does that put One Nation in the middle ground of conservative politics (leaving aside the view that Labor occupies that spot)?

R0bert

turnbull says he wont resign...but wont say he will run again[at this stage]...but if he isnt a quitter,...he may well do a howard..till then he will be doing..a costello

as soon as it was clear...ol joe would mean...passing the gst[sorry...cts]..it was clear...he would drop out first..the 47/35 vote againsyt..the proposed sceme..reveals this wasnt about turnbulls style...but his non representative stance

party loyalty...saw the turnbull/vote..being closer..than those inherantly against the cap/trade..regardless..it is now clear..that the gresh/issue can fall from the papers[the few that covered the expose...hiden/behind this issue

the next thing will be sir joe hockey...sounds good eh joe...thats whats at risk...cutting and running....is he there for party unity/or go the spoiler...im fairly sure joe will stick...his losing the vote wasnt personal...it was purely on the issues...he has enough loyalty... to serve where best needed...as should turncoat/bull

we finally have an opposition...this yes man/top dopwn..thing was allways going to fail..

mal dosnt play well with others...something i think tony can correct..by taking the issues...to the people

This is not a decisive victory for Abbott. If Turnbull had scraped in by the same margin the knives would have been out again in the near future.

One would think that being counted out in the first round is the best outcome for Hockey - he has his political hide preserved.

Its almost as if this had to happen. Let's see what sort of havoc Abbott's leadership visits upon the party.

Malcolm's doing a Keating and going to the backbench to cool his heels for a while. Like Keating was, Mal's just resting until he gets another crack. When the "Mad Monk" loses the next election, Malcolm is perfectly positioned to say, "I told you so" and may well make his move in the Government's next term.

I wouldn't write Turnbull off.

It occurs to me that the Liberal Party is now led by an Abbot and a Bishop. Sweet Heaven forfend!

I thought of the Abbott and Bishop thing too.

Perhaps its our consolation prize for not getting "Abbott and Costello".

well what a bunch of sore losers. We know the left can't accept democracy as seen by the Swiss vote. Turnbull might well make a comeback once educated into not going along with Green dogma with only perverted science backing. Today was a win for reason saving workers from a corrupt tax. It took a man with guts and integrity to stand against the UN suckers who are bent on socialism. Even some Labour supporters are happy to see some reason coming into the debate. Abbott was very wrong to go along with the ETS knowing that the man made warming is in his own words c-ap. His conscience obviously got the better of him which is a lot more than you can say for the corrupt scientist who have fudged the figures to hide the truth. Go Tony!

Dear CJ,

An Abbot and a Bishop (OMG),with a Munchkin
in the Party Room calling the shots,
and a weasel giving advice
on the phone - it's a perfect subject for an
animated entry to next year's Logies.

The Libs have finally come up with the
perfect formula for members of their party
who find it wise to conceal their tendency
towards rational and serious thought.

“Turnbull might well make a comeback once educated into not going along with Green dogma with only perverted science backing.”

Hmmmm.

Runner, Turnbull may well make a comeback once the rest of his party cottons on the reality that the only hope they have of winning power is to become really green, and not only develop a real ETS instead of a pretend one, but to get serious about the development of a steady-state economy, stable population and sustainable society!

Ludwig,
In Copenhagen, many aspects of reducing carbon will be discussed and how to reduce the burden on third world countries.

Whats the betting that population control will not get a mention.

Even with the highest carbon reduction scheme in Aus it will make no difference to the world. Why should we ruin our economy when other countries do little or nothing. I remember us setting the standard in tarrif reduction and we lost out there. There is no level playing field.

Its time others took the lead, starting with population control.

A great result for my party the ALP a sad sorry one for Australia.
Even worse for conservatives three more terms in opposition.
All for? nothing we get ETS after the election, maybe without the changes, and Minchin adds to his team the thought it was for nothing.
Are we all aware he once said cigarette smoke was not harmful?

Poirot, "One would think that being counted out in the first round is the best outcome for Hockey - he has his political hide preserved."

That's a discussion I had not so long after my previous post. It would be a difficult time to take over with the ETS issue still hot, a no win for Hockey. Hockey has avoided the Costello stigma of not stepping up but is not stuck with the current difficulties. It's unlikely that Abbott will turn the parties fortunes around (in a good way). In some ways it may be beneficial if Abbott takes the party so low that major reform becomes pallatable.

Now I've got really mixed feelings.

R0bert

Hockey is still young - his fault is wishy washiness and lack of honest responses. It didn't work for Beazley - waiting to see which way the wind blows policy strategy - it won't work for Hockey.

Strangely I don't think Abbott is necessarily the worst choice given the divisions on climate change within the party. He is less conservative than Minchin but not as liberal as Malcolm and probably makes a good compromise temporary candidate.

He, at least, is more colourful (less bland) than the Prime Minister and at least is a 'real' person with flaws and sometimes raw honesty even if one does not always agree with his life views. This kind of rawness even makes one kinda fond of ol' Barnaby and his ilk.

Or is that I am tiring of the Rudd spin machine, the contrived turn of phrase and lack of sincerity. Is anyone else hankering for some honest, colourful and real people in politics - even the odd eccentric would be a nice change.

I say this as someone who votes on a Labor/Green ticket, and as someone who is not in favour of the current ETS, and am opposed to the idea of making the environment and carbon emissions another commodity in an already flawed economic system.

The proposed ETS will do nothing to reduce emissions particuarly if Australia is the only nation turning up in party costume only to find out it is a pyjama party and everyone else is asleep on climate change.

Free trade has already done untold damage to agriculture and our industry - let's not damage it any further with a Clayton's ETS that is not going to achieve its goals.

The general public are confused with the conflicting science, unsure about the efficacy of the proposed ETS and the tensions among the Liberal Party is a reflection of those confusions.

You don't have to be a climate change sceptic to be an ETS sceptic.

Pelican,
Sounds like we're coming from the same place. I usually vote on a Labor/Green ticket as well. However, I'm finding myself increasingly numbed by Rudd's spin.

I must admit to having been thoroughly entertained by the Liberal three-ringed circus of late. The fact that Tony Abbott has been elected leader is intriguing and stimulating in a weird way. I do see him as temporary and expendable - as if they are indulging themselves in an effort to reinvent what it is they stand for.

I get the impression that Abbott feels that this is his moment and he should oppose for opposition's sake...he had been happy in the past to go along with the party line on an ETS because he was backing his leader.

His election does add some spice to the political menu, but I just don't see him as someone with the temperament to bring stability to his party in the long term.

Poirot: << Sounds like we're coming from the same place. I usually vote on a Labor/Green ticket as well. However, I'm finding myself increasingly numbed by Rudd's spin. >>

Elementary, my dear Poirot (to mix a literary allusion). With any luck we have a double dissolution election coming up, in which you can reverse your prior ticket. Vote for the Greens first, and give whoever you think appropriate your second preference.

With the reduced quota in a DD election, the Greens have a strong chance of electing another Senator or two, including Larissa Waters in Qld. In my view, that would be an excellent result.

The Greens are the only party to come out of this current brouhaha with any semblance of integrity.

CJ Morgan,
That does sound rather a delicious scenario.

Imagine, after all the grandstanding on this issue by the two major parties, if the Greens were to emerge with the balance of power.

“Whats the betting that population control will not get a mention.”

An almost certain bet, Banjo.

“Why should we ruin our economy when other countries do little or nothing…”

With respect, I think that this is quite the wrong way of thinking about it. We should be thinking of it in terms of how to modify our economy in the direction of sustainability, with urgency.

We’ll ruin our economy and society if we just keep going with the same old continuous-growth-based economic system.

“Its time others took the lead, starting with population control.”

I’m all in favour of Australia taking the lead and certainly not waiting for others to lead, ESPECIALLY with population control.

I’m pleased that the babbling Abbot and the bumbling Bishop are committed to developing a strong climate change policy. Now we’ve just got to impress on them that a big reduction in population growth rate has GOT to be a major part of that policy, if it is going to be meaningful.

----

“A great result for my party the ALP a sad sorry one for Australia”

Huh? Belly it sounds as though you are saying that your ALP being in government is very bad for Australia!?

Poirot we are indeed in agreement. Abbott will hang around until the Libs sort their identity crisis out. Although I am betting Abbott will give his best to reinventing himself to improve his appeal.

If he can convince the public that he can separate his religious views and compromise for the sake of the secular State he may have a slim chance. Many strange things have happened in politics.

I cannot see myself ever voting Liberal, but Labor is more and more Conservative losing touch with ordinary people in the same way - so like CJ the Greens really are the only choice for me. Under our preferential system a vote for Green really means a vote for your second preference but maybe there will be a few more Greens and Independents winning seats as a result of a confused and disgruntled public.

The mistake the current government runs is to assume their passion to push the ETS through is what the people want. The people are confused and further scrutiny or review via Committee may be the only option.

Maybe the Government is hoping for the chance to re-think the ETS while at the same time saving face. The Governmnent may be realising it has bitten off more than it can chew.

PS: I should add I am not dissing the ALP just the style of the leader and an ill-thought out ETS.

There are some very worthy people in Labour including Julia Gillard and Lindsay Tanner.

“Is anyone else hankering for some honest, colourful and real people in politics…”

Um yes Pelican, twould be good!

After seeing Abbot on the 7.30 Report last night and hearing him on Breakfast on Radio National this morning, I’m warming to him. At least he can answer questions straightforwardly.

He’s not highly articulate, with a lot of ums and ers, but that actually seems to work in his favour, by making him appear to be one of us ordinary man-in-the-street type folk.

Maybe, just maybe, he’ll turn out to be much better for the Libs and than Turnbull, and much better for the country as a result. Here’s hoping.

----

“Vote for the Greens first”

Why?? The trouble is CJ, as I went to great lengths to express my outrage over on this forum some time ago, that we have a compulsory preferential voting system….which mean that whichever major party you put second, or even second last, will be the one that you effectively vote for!

I’d suggest that you’d be better off putting in a null vote, so that your vote doesn’t count for either of the Liblabs.

The trouble with voting for the Greens is that you are in effect voting for one of the two big parties. Now surely anyone who is a true Green wouldn’t be able to stomach their vote counting for either of the two massively pro-expansionist, enormously antienvironment and antisustainability parties!!

Here's another guess.

Labor will back away from ant DD election.

By the time any election came up, global warming will be a dirty word, in many peoples mind, plus the fact Ruddy is only a gambler with our future, not his.

What ever else happens, it's been a good day. Turnbull is gone. If he does a Howard, & makes a comeback, he will be a much better man for it.

One of our parties has shown some guts, & were not prepared to enact bad legislation, for self, or leaders, preservation.

They have moved some way up my how to vote card.

Ludwig, writing slow for you.
It is hugely sad for Australia.
That we do not have an opposition, with any chance of winning.
CJM sorry bloke you must re read your post, understand it and my point of view.
Your mob, greens came out of this on side with Liberal/Nats.
They put up a scheme, NO ONE else would ever support.
Nor will they EVER find support for it.
They could have been relevant, voted for Rudd's first unchanged scheme.
Or just about got the second one up yesterday.
But knowingly on climate change they did nothing.
Extra seats? why to waste votes?
A danger exists here, compromise is what politics is all about, compromise is what they should have done.
No halo for Bob he is making your mob irrelevant.

“Ludwig, writing slow for you…”

Believe it or not, if you write slower, I will still read at the same speed!! Sorry, I’m not fully awake yet! (;>|

“It is hugely sad for Australia. That we do not have an opposition, with any chance of winning.”

Thanks for the clarification.

But, if you thought Rudd was doing a good job, then why would you care about the Opposition having or not having any chance of winning? And I believe you support Rudd pretty strongly. Not 100% support, but close to it, yes?

The great sadness I feel is that the Libs are hardly any different to the Labs and the essential part of our future, ie: real sustainability, is just not getting a look-in. So whichever party is in power, we’ll continue to have an utterly future-destroying regime. Now that really is hugely sad!

Please Belly, support me in pushing for Abbott to bring the Libs into the 21st century by addressing population stabilisation, a steady-state economy and a paradigm of genuine sustainability. Either this or urge Rudd directly to tow this line.

Do you understand the detail and the significance (or lack thereof) of the ETS? If not, how can you be critical of the Greens for aligning themselves with the Libs over it?

>>There are some very worthy people in Labour including Julia Gillard and Lindsay Tanner.<<

Pelican, worthy of what? When people start talking like that, I get a bit suss. The true test of a politician comes when they get into Government, not Opposition. Because that's when they can actually get some runs on the board and be judged for what they do, not just what they say. Let's see what they do before we judge.

>>After seeing Abbot on the 7.30 Report last night and hearing him on Breakfast on Radio National this morning, I’m warming to him.<<

Ludwig, Abbott's all over the place. One minute he's got a wide magnanimous streak, the next he's a nasty bovver boy. I remember a Lateline interview some years back where he and Bob McMullan were debating truth in politics. Abbott did the nastiest political ambush I've ever seen - more like a personal assassination on McMullan - which was completely unfair and uncalled for. Abbott flips between being a hit-man to a wimp and back again. IMO, you've got to ask, which is the real Tony and how can you really trust the word of a guy like that?

True RobP. I felt as a Labor/Green voter that I should add I do like some people in the ALP despite my comments about Rudd - I did not want the fact I am disillusioned with the Leader to taint the 'whole' picture.

In terms of personalities, I prefer Gillard and Tanner because while you may not always agree with them, they come across as real people, Tanner in particular is one of the more honest when interviewed. He is not afraid to put a personal view that might not always marry with the Government stance.

But you are right, personalities are not actions and it is only by what politicians do that they can be judged.

“Ludwig, Abbott's all over the place……”

Yes RobP, I fear you are right.

I said earlier that I’m warming to him. Wellll… I think it is more a case of really wanting him to be an effective leader and big thorn in Rudd’s side.

----

“Tanner in particular is one of the more honest when interviewed. He is not afraid to put a personal view that might not always marry with the Government stance.”

Fair enough Pelican.

Gillard? Hmmm...not so sure.

“…personalities are not actions and it is only by what politicians do that they can be judged.”

Not so sure about that. Unfortunately the media and general public are all too fickle when it comes to a polly’s personality or particular comments that they’ve made compared to things that they’ve actually done, when judging their effectiveness or appeal.

gillard made promises and assurances to the hemp party
dont trust her

not sure on lindsey either
stays in the background..choses when he wants to play
not leader/material...either of em

>>But you are right, personalities are not actions and it is only by what politicians do that they can be judged.<<

Pelican, I agree with this 100% - one must judge people on what's on the inside that comes out in their actions.

Ludwig, You're looking at it from the outside in. The political media is often only speculating based on impression rather than fact which is why you have to take a lot of what they say with a grain of salt. I agree that their "judgements" are often quite wrong. Often they ignore people's good and solid works behind the scenes while they talk up the more flashy, but mediocre performances.

>>I said earlier that I’m warming to him. Wellll… I think it is more a case of really wanting him to be an effective leader and big thorn in Rudd’s side.<<

The paradox is that I think the Liberal Party had a very effective leader in Turnbull, but he couldn't get any traction and was dragged down by the political process. Every time he tried to do the right thing (ie look to the future to getting the scheme on track and correct), all that was achieved was that the souffle rose a little bit more in the oven as the Government sought to keep the pressure up.

Having Abbott as leader may work for the Libs in a perverse sort of way in that he simply opposes the government's legislation and starves the souffle of heat at which point it flops. The Libs can then enter stage right as the policy fixers who will get the legislation into order.

Who knows which is the better of the two approaches. The truth is you probably need a bit of both for the policy and its implementation to be sustainable.

One under God you do carry on.
So Gillard broke a promise to the hemp mob?
She came from the very left, yet did not even give a promise to unions.
Not radical extremist unions.
Ordinary voice of the workers unions.
I can wear the hemp betrayal, but she concerns me, new Labor?
Just balance and fair go mate Labor will do me.
Abbott, can it be that the mouse who now roars has convinced some he is not who he truly is?
He is the man who stopped a scheme his party went to the last election with, after saying he supported it.
He wants work choices in a new dress.
He gained ,for a time, right control of his party, by betraying his stated position and leader.
In putting the very right in power he actually started an internal party war that may take decades to stop.
Turnbull was twice the man.

“…one must judge people on what's on the inside that comes out in their actions.”

Well, one SHOULD judge people on this basis, but many don’t. In fact, the vast majority of us don’t, because we don’t really know what most politicians, or people that we are judging, have actually achieved, whereas we do a get feeling for their personalities and alleged shortcomings from the media.

“You're looking at it from the outside in.”

Of course I am, RobP.

“The political media is often only speculating based on impression rather than fact which is why you have to take a lot of what they say with a grain of salt.”

Yes.

“Often they ignore people's good and solid works behind the scenes…”


Absolutely! So if we everyday people don’t get to hear about a person’s good work, then how can we judge them accordingly?

“Having Abbott as leader may work for the Libs in a perverse sort of way…”

You could well be right. Someone who is less principled than Turnbull, perhaps less logical in his decisions, more erratic or whatever the case may be, could well prove to be more effective. Sad, but that’s often reality. Principled people who stick to the rules are not well thought of in many instances.

I’ve certainly felt this very strongly indeed in my job, having worked for the same department for 21 years! In fact, I can feel a new general thread gelling in my head on this subject (:>|

Um, where was I. Oh yeah – If Abbott had the same approach to the health of the country as he has to his own health and fitness, then he and the Libs would certainly be on the right track. I guess we’ll see how it pans out.

>>So if we everyday people don’t get to hear about a person’s good work, then how can we judge them accordingly?<<

Fair point. The media's got to pick up its act and stop the populist rubbish.

>>I’ve certainly felt this very strongly indeed in my job, having worked for the same department for 21 years! In fact, I can feel a new general thread gelling in my head on this subject.<<

Yep. The do-as-I-say-don't-do-as-I-do mentality rules supreme in the PS even by many managers that don't like or approve of it. That's how strong the tide is running. Hypocrisy as far as the eye can see. The public service is pretty close to being totally corrupted. Now there's something Rudd might like to have a look at fixing.

To yos all,
The waiting is almost over. All will be revealed. Left or right. which way to go. Dur! the battle was fought and won on a lonely hill 2000 years ago. It is only show to keep the troops entertained. Fear, faith in satin. or courage,faith in the one true God. Left or right which choice will I make. What is truth its TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO complecated. Remember mum always said love fixes every thing. What is love mum is it that funny feeling when tom and harry get together gee I don't know tooooooooo hard I can't see which way to go.