Good stuff, chaps. I don't think I'm quite as far along the curmudgeon track as you guys are, but I think I know where you're coming from.

Somebody accused me of being "evil" in this forum a week or so ago, and I have to admit I was quite taken aback. I've been a very naughty boy on occasions in the past, but to me the word "evil" denotes a kind of superlative badness. At any rate, the forces of "good" apparently intervened and the post disappeared in OLO's meltdown last week.

The relevance of that experience to this discussion is that I think that the person who said I am "evil" did so in davidf's sense, i.e. she's decided she doesn't like me (in part, no doubt, due to my somewhat acerbic - indeed, curmudegeonly - style on occasion).

With all due respect to davidf, I think that this debases the semantics of good and evil. There are many shades of goodness and badness between the polar opposites of Good and Evil - which are not defined by religions but are often claimed by them.

What is "good" is behaviour and ideas that sustain human cooperation in sustainable survival, and what is "evil" are behaviours and ideas that work against those imperatives. That's just my opinion, but I've arrived at it over many years of disciplined study, field research and life experience in diverse locales and activities.

I'd like to think that there's more in the future than 'curmudgeondom', but I'm not exactly inspired by current events.

Dear CJ Morgan,

Great word isn't it. Curmudgeon!

I perhaps should have been a little clearer and said 'I will claim it when I get there, in about 30 years time.'

I think the world being able to step back from the brink of a nuclear holocaust deserves applause. For these weapons not to have been used since WW2 also deserves applause because for so many people our nature should have made their use inevitable by now.

However the population bogey is the one that seems to depress so many about our species future and yet there is certainly light at the end of the tunnel. In 60 years the world wide fertility rate has dropped from 6 children per women to 2.6, not far from the replacement level of 2.3. Of course if we hadn't been so determined to eradicate global diseases the population would have been smaller but the 'Evil' of the death and suffering caused would be burdening us all.

I get a kick out of the notion that the best way of dealing with population growth isn't through forced sterilisations or a one child policy but through raising people from want, lifting gender equality, quality education etc.

That is not forgetting the world does have a population bubble it has to ride out and as a consequence we are going to lose species and face problems we may not solve without pain.

As for inspiration I get it from simple local things like policemen no longer turning a blind eye to domestic violence, the huge strides in tackling racism in our sport, acknowledgement of past wrongs, the list goes on.

It is bad enough when our churches push the doom and gloom message, it is particularly frustrating when our some of our secularists try to out do them.

Dear csteele and CJ,

If our interchange mutates into a love-in I will accede to our inexorable destiny.

I remember over 50 years ago sitting in a restaurant with my wife and another couple in the Poconos. Beautiful view but quiet was broken by waitress playing Presley record of 'Ain't nothin' but a hound dog' 'for us'. Disturbing cacophony in a peaceful setting. Have avoided pop music ever since and am a charter member of the derrierre garde. Could sing the London derrierre. Am unfamiliar with the Oils, Khe Sanh or Barnsey. Have heard of Dire Straits because someone I was talking to mentioned them and was taken aback that I was not aware of their existence. Probably you're not aware of Arslan Alp.

"Origins" by Eric Partridge yields the origins of curmudgeon from the French 'coeur mechant' meaning an ill-tempered heart.

csteele, please think of how Muslim act, Jewish act, Buddhist act or other _______ act sound to you. I connect none of those acts with compassion or goodness because the communicants of those religions display a spectrum of behaviours. Same for Christian act. It could refer to the Inquisition.

I think the doom and gloom message is one that should be pushed. We can take action to stop destroying the planet. We won't if we ignore what is happening.

There’s no reason that we can’t try to raise people from want, have sexual equality together with quality education and also have a one-child policy. Every few seconds somewhere in the world a woman is having a baby. We must find her and get her to stop.

Some horrible weapons have been used since WW2 – land mines, cluster bombs, depleted uranium and poison gas. All those weapons keep killing after the conflict is over. French farmers still die from the poison gas of WW1 when their plough disturbs a pocket of gas.

CJ wrote: With all due respect to davidf, I think that this debases the semantics of good and evil.

Yes. Let’s not be anti-semantic

Dear davidf,

There are many of my in-laws who would be quite bemused by my efforts here defending Jesus and christianity because they normally see me on the other side of the fence so we mustn't tell.

Firstly to further my argument, and I am quoting from Webster's here in difference to your origins, under the adjective for Christianity as opposed to the noun comes the following definition; ...humane, charitable, kind; a true Christian act.

My sister, who is not Buddhist, does not squash mosquitoes when they land on her but gently brushes them off. I am happy to call that a Buddhist act. She is extremely kind to all animals and has been known to do balaclava donned raids to rescue those in distress.

Without giving it deep thought I would probably see a Jewish act as one of rejoicing in God's abundances and giving thanks. As to a Muslim act it would be one of deep piousness and humbleness before God.

If I were in a particular frame of mind I could drench the last two brands in all sorts of evil and misdeeds. Admittedly I would struggle with the Buddhist but I'm sure in the end I would find a way.

I just happen to realise that the prime reasons for adopting a particular faith are upbringing and culture. Most of us are reaching for the same things and we use the vehicle presented to us, the one in easy reach. Our problems really only come about when we let others have too much control of the route.

BTW I am a little perturbed by your statement “We must find her and get her to stop.”. Sounds a wee fascist to me. How about instead we must present her with real opportunities to receive a sound education. Same effect, just a little less dictatorial.

Cont...

cont...

To modern music (sort of). I'm wondering davidf if you had heard Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah? My daughter is mastering it on the piano at the moment and it a truly beautiful song. The younger generation has been exposed to it through Rufus Wainwright's version in Shrek.

My wife's favourite is by Allison Crowe;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIMOdVXAPJ0&feature=related

But for my money Jeff Buckley 'owned' it with his working of it here;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK1UjkXDAJA

Recorded just after the French had tested a nuclear bomb in the Pacific.

“The French government had joined the long list of fools that had insisted on sending death sentences to the earth. This is for all the good people who know the only good place for a nuclear bomb is in the garbage disposal dismantled.”

The first lines go;

I heard there was a secret chord,
that David played and it pleased the lord,
but you don't really care for music, do you.

I thought it might push a few of your buttons and it seemed quite topical to the discussion.

Enjoy.

A final note. Did you know it was Mozart's father Leopold who dicided against inoculatiing his children against smallpox and as a result when he contracted the disease at 11 he was nearly lost to us?

Dear csteele,

I object to ethnocentrism - the idea that a particular religious, ethnic, national or other group is somehow more virtuous than others.

Dictionaries are defined by usage. "humane, charitable, kind; a true Christian act." is usage in language that expresses Christian ethnocentrism. Jews, Muslims, Congolese and others also exhibit ethnocentrism. I object to it wherever it occurs. At the ceremony where I became an Australian citizen Michael Lavarch said, "Australia is the best country on earth." To me that was an extremely offensive statement. There was a putdown of all other countries in that statement. I don't believe Australia is better than all other countries on earth. I don't find other ethnocentrisms any more acceptable than Christian ethnocentrism.

Jewish acts or Buddhist acts may be good or bad. The Israeli air force dropping cluster bombs on Lebanon near the end of the fighting was a war crime and evil act by Jews. Ben Kiernan in "Blood and Soil" writes of the genocides committed by Buddhists. A Christian, Jewish or Buddhist act is one that is committed by Christians, Jews or Buddhists. It may or may not be humane and charitable. It is ethnocentrism to assume that it is.

Our religion and ethnicity are generally the result of the background of our parents. You probably would agree with that.

“We must find her and get her to stop.” was an attempt at humour. Apparently the attempt failed.

I am not familiar with Leonard Cohen, Rufus Wainwright, Allison Crowe or Jeff Buckley but will listen to the sites you posted.

I was once offered three times my salary to work on the Polaris missile and refused. The man who made the offer threatened to report me to the FBI after I refused.

According to the narrative David was a very flawed character who grew arrogant with power.

I did not know Leopold refused smallpox inoculation for Wolfgang.