I don't believe the idea that good and evil are just arbitrary constructs of the mind as has been suggested in this thread.

I watched the show about the Allies' efforts in rounding up and bringing to justice the Nazis responsible for murdering the escapees that inspired the movie, "The Great Escape". It came across as a fair and accurate portrayal of the truth of the situation. What it showed me is when it comes to it, there's bad and then there's really bad. In one scene from the show, the leader of the "great escape" was ordered (by Hitler himself) to be shot by his nazi escort on the way back to the prison camp. The senior nazi at the scene ordered his 2IC to do the dirty work. The 2IC had never killed anyone before and knew if he didn't comply he would be shot himself, so did it although he first tried to remonstrate with his superior. In the background that was done of him, he was portrayed as having a loving family at home and this was borne out in the letters he wrote to his wife from prison (before he was caught by the special investigators). To my way of thinking, while he committed murder, he was nowhere near as guilty as the Third Reich itself and its senior command.

In another scene, a senior officer was completely unrepentant after personally murdering an Australian flier who escaped from the same camp. Even when caught, he was proud of what he had done.

All of the nazis were hanged which to my mind shows a mixture of true justice and victors' justice were carried out by the Allies.

But what differentiates the man who deep in his being wants to kill someone against the man who only does it because circumstances dictate it? There's more to this that just a figment of one's imagination. Where does one get inspiration to do bad? Or good, for that matter? It doesn't just come from nowhere.

I'm beginning to come to the conclusion
that evil is a judgement we hand down
based on our own sense of what's moral
and what's not.

Evil is not something that I feel any one
of us can truly define in a nutshell.
Same as good.
Definitions seem to transcend human reasoning
on some level.

The best I can do is realize that I have a
conscience for a reason - and live my life
accordingly.

Davidf,

I tend to agree with SM things aren't intrinsically evil (guns aren't evil they can be used for good shooting feral pests/vermin comes to mind. or evil rob a bank, murder some one at al. Only human actions either mental of physical are.(untill we discover sentient aliens that is).
Evil is a human construct.
Wolves are bad in our frame, not evil, wanting to survive or protect one's self or family (pack) isn't. Even Hitler wasn't intrinsically evil, what he did was beyond reasonable contemplation. That doesn't mean he shouldn't have been punished for what he did.

RobP

In your example the men that killed did so because they were ordered to (Nuremberg defence). It was clear that these men were, as you say, loving fathers PTA etc. So the idea that they were intrinsically evil, has major contradictions.

Being intrinsically evil has problems
Either the person was born evil therefore there isn't a huge mental jump this could be used as justification for eugenics. To prove this there needs to be a genetic or physical cause.
Determinism in another form. They doesn't exist.

There are human (animalistic) potential in all of us towards gratuitous violence, best observed in chimps. However, they don't have consciences etc. we do. Therefore the defining element is the knowledge and or the ability to choose (i.e. to act or not act).
Deciding to over ride the conscience defines evil.

Cont...
Caught again by the 24 hour rule, to conclude...

My message is don't let your understandable reaction to the self appointed gatekeepers, and I include some of the gospel writers here, obscure deep truths to be found in the teachings of Christ.

While on Tolstoi I wonder if you haven't already you might find the time to read his short story "Three Deaths". The only online copy I can find is here;

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Three_Deaths

To me the death of the noblewoman is a big 'C' Christian death while that of the coach driver a little 'c'.

This highlights a number of definitions of christian.
Runner appears to me in these forums as definitely a big 'C' :). Church based and ultra-dogmatic.

Foxy could be seen as exhibiting a small 'c' i.e. showing a loving concern for others, humane. A christian act. A compassion that you expressed your love for earlier. This is far more the essence of what christianity should be about.

I will admit to being a little bemused by your statement "Rather than concern myself with definitions of evil based on psychopaths, Hiroshima, Hitler and other distant entities I would rather try to live a life that is good for me and good for those around me" which seemed a little strange after your opening paragraph of this thread in which Hitler was referred to 5 times. However as the author you certainly have that prerogative.

From your efforts on this forum you seemed to be taking to heart Socrates message ""An unexamined life is not worth living." If only by that measure you are well ahead of the game. Play on.

Dear csteele,

I object to equating humane with Christian. Non-Christian is not non-humane. Jesus inspires great fear in me. Christian Nazis and other Christians have murdered us and caused great death and suffering in Jesus’ name.

I don't know what Jesus intended or even whether he existed. I don't believe in any of the miracles in the Bible so I doubt the accuracy of the rest of it. I regard Christianity as a continuation of paganism. The humanoid gods of the Greeks and the Roman have been reduced to one humanoid god in the person of Jesus.

Absence of love is not a form of evil. We feel love for those we are close to. Many of our encounters are free of love, but that does not mean they are evil.

A good death to me is one that doesn't involve great suffering and comes quickly. My father was not feeling well, and my cousin took him to the hospital. I had to travel several hundred miles and by the time I got there my father was dead. According to the doctor he was making jokes until a half an hour before he died. He had a good death.

My grandchildren will remember me after my death. However, whether they remember me or not will not alter the fact of my death. One doesn't live in someone's memory. Death is death whether one is remembered or not.

I understand that a characteristic of a psychopath is not to feel any remorse. The only actions regretted are those the psychopath doesn't get away with.

I like Tolstoy’s writing and plan to read the Troyat biography. My wife has already read it and had the impression that Tolstoy was a horrible man. He was more interested in the children of his serfs than his own.

Dear RobP,

I see no point in hanging Nazis regardless of what they have done. It brings none of their victims back to life and is only more killing.

I don’t know why some people do what they do.

Dear davidf,

When I read “I don't know what Jesus intended or even whether he existed.” and see “Jesus inspires great fear in me.” I am a little perplexed. Would it be more accurate to say that the followers of Christ inspire that fear rather than the bloke himself? Still it is an understandable position to take from your perspective.

Indeed 'Jews have murdered us and caused great death and suffering in the name of Zionism' is also a legitimate call from a Palestinian. However does this completely de-legitimise the notion of a Jewish homeland?

You say “Absence of love is not a form of evil”. My reply would be the absence of empathy allows evil to flourish so I am happy to put the proposition that it is intrinsically evil. Further I see the withdrawal or absence of love by parents toward their children as a typical factor in the creation of our psychopaths (and our writers it seems).

I don't think I have ever really enjoyed reading Tolstoi or Dostoyevsky, I just seem to get too tense.

Dear Foxy,

You say “Evil is not something that I feel any one of us can truly define in a nutshell.” but you know it when you see it. To me it is a self evident truth and as a human construct like equality and justice it is one we should be damn proud of. In an evolutionary blink of an eye we are no longer eating each other, in many parts of the world the evil of slavery has been banished, gender equality is steadily rising, global want and disease are being tackled , the list goes on.

You strike me as a whole person. You don't need a reason for having a conscience just accept it as part of being human and realise it has been honed by others before you as you are doing to those around you now.

Sometimes we just need to stand back and feel justifiable pride in the substantial progressive narrative of the human race in recent centuries.