DAVID your extensive list of wars[misses out some other statistics[like the japenese cities murderd,near the end of ww2..ans cthe million pluss iraqies..or the srilancan genocide

never the less you say religions caused these wars..yet must see in your heart every act of war was conducted bt the state..not the church...and financed by the self same ursurors/bankers...jesus railed agaionst

realise mate that those who charge ursury..arnt xtian...neither are those who pay ursury..realise that these are satans realms...the realm of the outcast's of little passion..[little salt..

this is the only realm..where real evil and true good..may freely interact...alone in these realms..mainly so we can raise our passions..enough..to qualify for the next realms...

we are all eternal spirits having a life term..

.we serve our life/sentance...life/term...and get born again into the next realms..some having a...lol..good death..others not...

but regardless..we all get sorted in the end
so much more..is given...than we could possably concieve..

but it begins with facing the truth honestly...it wernt religions that did evil...but those decieved..into the serving evils..most vile..of many faiths and many beliefs

yet its those..without belief..
yet proffesing..lol belief...

that reveal the passions...of the hell's..on earth..are earthy passions...not proper/religious belief's..nor religious principles..not orded nor done by those knowing to love god via loving neighbour

you call the darkness...to be caused..by the light
but you ere my br-other

but one good...[god]
sustains all living...

no death serves..the life giver
we are called to live...not die

Dear davidf,

You seemed to have taken exception to my remark “"Sometimes we just need to stand back and feel justifiable pride in the substantial progressive narrative of the human race in recent centuries." and answered it with a body count.

I'm not sure how seemly it is to be using this as a measure but in the spirit of debate I see your millions of deaths and raise you many more millions saved.

Although there are many examples in my armoury I will employ just one – the eradication of small pox.

It is estimated that just in Europe alone during the 18th century 800,000 lives per year were lost to this disease. In the first 2/3rds of the 20th century the world lost between 300 to 500 million lives.

It was one of your terrible Marxist countries that first called for its eradication on a world wide scale. From Wikipedia: “In 1958 Professor Viktor Zhdanov, Deputy Minister of Health for the USSR, called on the World Health Assembly to undertake a global initiative to eradicate smallpox. The proposal (Resolution WHA11.54) was accepted in 1959."

By December 1979 it was announced as complete. Absolutely astounding effort by thousands of dedicated personnel and a beacon for those who see world cooperation rather than conflict as our species greatest hope. Copenhagen awaits.

As to Shakespeare, such art is fine if you could access it but at the time literacy rates for men were less than 30% and for women less than 10%. During the 18th , 19th and 20th centuries these rates have been taken to over 97% in most European countries, ably assisted by public schooling and the ethic that sustains it.

Much of the work of your painters lay in the homes of the wealthy who had commissioned it. Now much of it is publicly accessible.

Further strides in wealth distribution means not only your composers are enjoyed by far greater numbers but we can access the creative works of so many who now have the opportunity to distribute widely.

Yup, I'm proud.

Dear csteele,

You wrote: "This was actually a warning against the teachings of false prophets, not licence to go out and burn witches. Surely Theodosius could be regarded as a kind of false prophet and Hitler was Hitler.

I think your argument might be with them [the German population] rather than Jesus."

Dear csteele,

No. The argument is with Jesus. There has not been any noticeable improvement in human behaviour since Jesus. In spite of your equating humane with Christian there is no evidence that Christians are any more humane than non-Christians. All that equation does is denigrate non-Christians and promulgate the years of hate for non-Christians promulgated by Christianity which made fertile ground for the Nazis, Conquistadores, Puritans and other Christians who committed genocide.

The messianic age was supposed to be an age of peace. Since Jesus didn't usher in an age of peace it is obvious that he is merely one of the many false messiahs like Shabbatai Zevi, Jacob Frank. There is no Second Coming necessary. A messiah is supposed to get it right the first time.

Jesus was another false prophet.

You wrote: Would it be more accurate to say that the followers of Christ inspire that fear rather than the bloke himself?

Neither Hitler nor Jesus did much damage personally. Their followers committed the horrors. Jesus and Hitler are fearsome for the same reason.

http://www.johnshelbyspong.com/bishopspongon_theTerribleTexts.aspx
Anglican Bishop John Shelby Spong recognizes the bigotry promoted by Jesus:
"No one comes to the Father but by me" (John 14:6);This text has helped to create a world where adherents of one religion feel compelled to kill adherents of another. A veritable renaissance of religious terror now confronts us and is making against us the claims we have long made against religious traditions different from our own.

You wrote: "It was one of your terrible Marxist countries"

I didn't write that Marxists were terrible. You made the judgment based on my mention of the number of corpses. The same judgment applies to Christianity.

The smallpox still exists in labs like nuclear bombs waiting to be used.

Dear davidf,

Forgive me but I am going to suggest it is possibly a little curmudgeonly to dismiss the stunning global achievement of eradicating smallpox with the statement “The smallpox still exists in labs like nuclear bombs waiting to be used.”?

As to Bishop Spong could I invite you to read his tome The Hebrew Lord. It details the cultism that grew around the man Jesus. For example there is no reference to the virgin birth in Mark the first Gospel. Your quote is from the final Gospel, that of John. Written by a gentile after the destruction of the temple and bitter conflicts between Jews and the new sect of Christianity, when the hyping of the man was deemed necessary by the movement's leaders.

I have acknowledged this when I said in an earlier post “My message is don't let your understandable reaction to the self appointed gatekeepers, and I include some of the gospel writers here, obscure deep truths to be found in the teachings of Christ.”

I have tried to show the difference between those who follow Christ and those inspired by or act as he did, often through great personal cost.

I have never claimed “Non-Christian is not non-humane” nor have I claimed he was the messiah.

You have asked "How can I lead a good life?" and I was a little wary of offering advice. I do so now. Take the time to rejoice in some of the achievements of our species because life is too short just to dwell only on the negatives. There certainly is much to be proud of, all the more so because we are doing all on our own.

Beggars belief sometimes.

Dear csteele,

You wrote: "I have never claimed “Non-Christian is not non-humane” nor have I claimed he was the messiah."

Your post dated Saturday, 31 October 2009 2:56:25 PM contained: "Foxy could be seen as exhibiting a small 'c' i.e. showing a loving concern for others, humane. A christian act. …"

If a humane act is a Christian act then it logically follows that a non-Christian act is non-humane.

The word Christ means messiah. Let's just call him Jesus.

There are no known cases of small pox at present nor any dropping of nuclear weapons in anger since Hiroshima and Nagasaki. However, both nuclear weapons and the smallpox virus present a danger as long as both are not eradicated. There are samples of the virus in the germ warfare installation in Fort Dietrich, Maryland and in similar installations in other countries.

At the moment our species does not seem to be able to control its breeding and is causing mass extinction of other life forms by our actions. There is paleontological evidence for five great extinctions in the past. The sixth is now happening and seems to be man-made. It might be better for the other life forms for the human race to disappear from the planet. We are poisoning the planet. The twentieth century was a century of mass murder, and it appears to be continuing. Some populations are starving while others are obese. Even pop music instead of the witty lyrics and melodies of a Porter or Gershwin is the raucous cacophony of hip-hop or rock.

Curmudgeon? You bet your boots.

Centring a religion around a humanoid God or a man seems a continuation of paganism regardless of the attributes assigned to that man or God.

I see Jesus and Hitler, as exemplified in the acts of their followers. I assume those who call themselves Christian are followers of Christ.

Buddha, Mohammed and Zoroaster do not inspire fear in me, but Jesus and Hitler do.

Reading Spong's "Liberating the Gospels" with pleasure and incredulity.

Dear davidf,

I think everyone who is an octogenarian onwards has every right to be a curmudgeonly old bastard because I'm sure as hell going to claim that right for myself.

Just as I don't 'get' Gershwin or Porter I'm sure my children won't get to experience the joy of the Oils full blast on a desert road trip, or belting out Khe Sanh at a Barnsey concert, although my one of my daughter's favourite songs at the moment is Romeo and Juliet by the Killers which to my untrained ear sounds exactly like the Dire Straits original from my youth.

I wonder how I'm going to be repaid for the soap box lectures I gave my parents about their 'backward' ways. Will one of my children come home to tell me they are getting married to another couple? Will my grandchildren come up and quietly ask me in morbid horror what it was like to have the bloodied carcasses of slaughtered animals driven through my streets? I will admit to be kind of looking forward to it whatever comes.

I am also positive that they will uncover evils that I am blind to, just as my parents didn't march in the streets for Aboriginal voting and census rights there will be things that with hindsight I will be ashamed I didn't recognise.

I am glad you are reading some more Bishop Spong, some enlightened views of Jesus. For something meatier may I commend Robin Griffith-Jones' book The Four Witnesses subtitled The Rebel, the Rabbi, the Chronicler, and the Mystic.

To finish permit me briefly to put on my curmudgeon coat. I used the phrase 'christian act' to illustrate its difference from the Church's strident view of what it meant to be a Christian. But hell, I remember my great-grandmother using the phrase as did my grandmother and my mother so I claim it as part of my culture, so if you don't like it you can stick it in your pipe and smoke it!

I could get to like this so I'll put the coat away for now.