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The Forum > General Discussion > Evil

Evil

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Dear Philo,

Christianity, like other religions and groups of humans, is defined by the way those bearing the name behave. They are not defined by how their apologists think they should behave.
Posted by david f, Thursday, 5 November 2009 11:32:45 AM
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Dear David,
“Treat a man as he is and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he can and should be and he will become as he can and should be.“ (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe).

Could this hold also when “man” is replaced by “religions and groups of humans“?
Posted by George, Thursday, 5 November 2009 5:32:18 PM
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Dear davidf,

Firstly the Confucian in me must correct your language/facts. The Quakers or Society of Friends are not entirely made up of Christians and it certainly is not a prerequisite. In fact a fair percentage would probably take you to task for the presumption.

Secondly I have been caught again with my humour radar not fully tuned, sorry, I will get there.

Ethnocentricity, could we just call it tribalism, is part of being human and I'm not sure it can be considered an evil or wrong unless taken too far. We don't expect impartiality when someone is dealing with their family, or their football team, their town or city (if you haven't caught Waleed Aly's effort in the intelligence2 debate last October make the effort, very funny), or their state, then why are we surprised and angered when the same instinct is applied to their country or religion?

Me? Well I find myself sticking up for my species and so could well be labelled by yourself as speciescentric. Where does it stop? Heliocentric?

As I have argued I feel we give up a little of ourselves by joining various groupings but when this involves a complete cauterisation of empathy for a different group then we have a problem. Until then I'm not sure I have a issue with someone saying Australia is the best country in the world because all they are really saying is it gains that label because it is theirs.

Dear Fractelle,

You said: “Does one's thoughts make one 'evil'? Or is it to act on those thoughts? I think the latter.”

I'm going to say the former. For instance to harbour a serious prejudice toward a particular race while acting normally toward them does not remove the evil of racism it only removes the hurt caused.

I'm uncertain that music can be considered a good but it certainly is powerful and its universality makes it a mark of our species, an attribute that has the ability to lift us from the ordinary.
Posted by csteele, Friday, 6 November 2009 1:34:07 AM
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Dear George,

You cited Goethe’s saying: “Treat a man as he is and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he can and should be and he will become as he can and should be.“ and asked: "Could this hold also when “man” is replaced by “religions and groups of humans“?"

I don't think it holds in any case.

I regard that statement as arrogant. It implies that one knows what someone else should be. I would regard it as an imposition if another person were to decide what I should be, and I would not impose on others what I feel should not be imposed on me.

There is too much of that attitude. I prefer to recognise the humanity of others, treat them decently and let them be what they want to be.

I favour the philosophy of Jimmy Durante, “Why doesn’t everybody leave everybody else the hell alone.”

Dear csteele,

I have attended Friends' meetings in various places. The Friends I knew regarded themselves as Christians.

As far as one's football team goes I am bemused when an Australian politician finds it relevant to state which football team he roots for. Other things being equal I do not vote for a person who makes such references. I regard it as an inappropriate attempt to humanise a candidate. I am interested in what a person plans to do in office not in their irrational prejudices.

Australia gets gold medals in the Olympics out of proportion to its population. That means to me they are overemphasizing sports and spending too much on the Institute of Sports. I am a dual citizen of the US and Australia, and I would like to see both stop competing in that orgy of nationalism, the Olympics.

I think we have different attitudes in that area.
Posted by david f, Friday, 6 November 2009 2:59:27 AM
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Dear David f,

I think the quote is not about the NEED to “treat” other individuals (or groups) but about HOW to go about it in case you happen to have to “treat them”. Arrogant or not, I think Germans (and others) would have been much better off had they heeded Goethe’s (and Schiller’s) late 18th century warnings against nationalism, although those warnings implied he knew what they should and should not become.

He wrote in 1808: “The German nation is nothing but the individual German is something, and yet they imagine the opposite to be true. The Germans should be dispersed throughout the world, like the Jews, in order fully to develop all the good that is in them for the benefit of mankind.” (quoted in Hans Kohn, The Mind of Germany, Macmillan 1960.)

>>I prefer to recognise the humanity of others, treat them decently and let them be what they want to be.<<
A fine general rule though I do not think educators, judges and law enforcers would find the last part always practicable.
Posted by George, Friday, 6 November 2009 8:14:49 AM
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Csteele

Well, by your definition "thinking evil thoughts" as being more than evil than actions, I am most definitely 'evil'. When my ex-husband was abusing me I wished with every mote of my being that he would just drop dead. Of course he did not oblige me of that wish, so eventually, I found the courage to leave him.

As for music, well my simple point was that it can be used for good or ill, like religion, patriotism, gender or skin colour. Therefore, I do not think of Nazis when listening to the "Ring Cycle". I remain more concerned by songs like "Onward Christian Soldiers" than Wagnerian operas.
Posted by Fractelle, Friday, 6 November 2009 9:02:43 AM
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