From the Stand by your Man Thread:
“Surely that particular vow is about things around the couple getting better or worse and not a member of the actual couple spazing out?”

Now I am really thinking about it (notably Col is approaching his big day) and wondering how people have interpreted the vows they have made. Mine were the:
"To have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part."

Well we obviously do not spend every day having and holding anything.

Sickness and in health; would Dementia or Alzheimer’s alter this when they are no longer that person?

The death bit might have been the only part I truly understood for me but do people of faith understand it the same way or do some believe they will again meet and the vows are beyond mortal death?

I am seriously now wondering what I agreed to.

Yeah I was a bit worried about you. Maybe you signed a contract and you didn't think clearly about the fine print.

I always say to her indoors, if you want to get married, you have to use traditional vows. Love, honour,.... AND OBEY!

She rejected this so the whole things off! That's it! If you're going to do these things, you must do them properly. You cant just stand on tradition like that!

Weddings crack me up. The ones I've been to I've gone through the
whole ceremony with a smirk on my face bigger than captain smirk
Peter Costello.

There's just so much cliché man! Such a performance, and it costs so much. Then if it doesn't, it looks so sad in the government offices. The Elvis Impersonator in Vegas had me tempted though.

I'm sure Col's wedding will be stylish though,
and my god I'd love to see the pictures of him in his suit!

Hoo, it's getting hot in here.

Hey a friend went to a super chav wedding recently
and the best man opened his speech with
'I prepared a few lines, but I snorted them earlier.'

Ah, wish I was at that one! Maybe they had ice sculptures!

The Pied Piper
The question is not only the vows but also your expectations before you make your vows!
Are you sure that your expectations realized or you remember only the vows?
What about your dreams, hopes, promises, happiness, respect, love, your personal sensitivities WHAT ABOUT YOUR CURRENT EXPECTASIONS IN RELATION WITH YOUR EXPECTATIONS YOU HAD WHEN YOU MADE YOUR VOWS?
Are they same or changed?
Is your current values, your current sensitivies same with the old one when you made your vows?
Do you think we do not have the right to change, we do not have the right to make mistakes we do not have the right to correct our mistake?
When we start to thing about our vows already we recognize the existens of problems, the need for new begin!
Did you and your partner moved with the same speed and to the same direction or diferent speed, defferent directions and the distance between you grew up, and your expectations, dreams, hopes and happines etc does not exist any more ?
From your posts I found that you are not only honest but very smart person , did you find that you developed your self, your abilities, your qualifications and experiences you deserve or simple you stack on the bottom, or your relations was hopeless for you!
If you gave big promises because you had big expectations but your expectations never realized, if you moved with your partner to diferent directions and with different speed, IF YOU ARE NOT HAPPY, IF YOU FEEL THAT YOU HAVE WEASTED YOUR LIFE FROM THESE RELATIONS , IF YOU FIND A NEW DREAM, A NEW HOPE FOR A BETTER LIFE, FOR A BETTER FUTURE, IF YOUR HEART DRIVE YOU TO AN OTHER MAN, IF...IF... THEN A NEW LIFE, A NEW BEGIN, A NEW FRESH DREAM, NEW PROMISES AND NEW VOWS WILL GIVE YOU THE STRENGTH YOU NEED TO REBUILD YOUR LIFE, TO FIND YOUR HAPPINES!
The requirment is the HAPPINES and ONLY you can give the right anwser for it.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Dear Piper,

I can't remember the vows I made because I had
taken medication that my GP had prescribed for
my nerves - prior to the ceremony - and I simply
smiled at everything... and thought it was
wonderful!

However I went to my niece's wedding recently
and I loved the words of her vows:

"I cannot promise you a life of sunshine,
I cannot promise riches, wealth, or gold;
I cannot promise you an easy pathway
That leads away from change or growing old.
But I can promise all my heart's devotion;
A smile to chase away your tears of sorrow;
A love that's ever true and ever growing'
A hand to hold in yours through each tomorrow."

For the Exchange of rings they said:

"With this ring, I give you my trust, my love and my heart.
Like the circle of love that protects us, may this ring
symbolize our love for eternity."

Foxy that was lovely and I so get what you mean about needing a GP now and again, I fully self medicated immediately after mine. I haven’t been to a wedding since my older sisters when I was 15 and a foolish looking flower girl or something – had to wear a dress and everything. My sister’s dress was pink and she was like 8 months pregnant and it was honestly like something out of The Benny Hill Show.

Hey Houel, that best man – awesome. Speaking of which I just boogied into the fungus thread about being wise but ran away after I realized that it was actually referring to learning about fungus. Oh goody now I’m derailing my own thread.

But anyway I will tell the brief story of my wedding. I said brief! Already had two small kids, didn’t want flash, I am very non-flash. So rocked up to local registry office to find out how it’s all done on the Monday and they go “oh yeah we have an opening this Wednesday”, “yeah sure” says I then spotted the bead of sweat running down future hubby’s temple. “Suck it up” says I to future hubby.

Wednesday rolls around and we both went there thinking you signed something and walked out. Nah we get dragged in to this room and a dude, with a collar on is waiting and he does proper vows. We both felt a bit blindsided. That was 13 years ago now and here is me just now thinking what on earth did I promise?

I’m happy as but now wondering what it was all about and are their real circumstances that void vows?

I am devorsed! Both sites have responsibilities, if one change mind very often, if does not like to do anything, if have two buchelors, law in Athens, english teaching in Adelade and she worked some months in her life, If she did not like to undertake any responsibilities at home, at work, etcIF....IF...IF.... At the end I divorsed her, she colapsed mentaly the day I devorsed and returned to her country.
When I went to take my children and bring them in Australia I found she had a photo next to her bed of her weding with me!
STATISTICS FOR 2007
Divorces, Australia,
Divorces granted 47 963
Median age at divorce for males 44.2
Median age at divorce for females 41.3
Median age at divorce for males
AGE-HIGHEST DIVORCE RATES FOR MALES 40-44
AGE-HIGHEST DIVORCE RATES FOR FEMALES 35-39
LENGTH OF MARRIAGE FOR DIVORCING COUPLES 7.8 years
Divorces involving children(e) 49.3%
Type of applicant males 13 216
Type of applicant females 18 571
Type of applicant Joint 16 172
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/mf/3307.0.55.001


Percentage of New Marriages which End in Divorce
Sweden 54.9
Australia 46
United States 45.8
United Kingdom 42.6
Germany 39.4
Greece 15.7
Spain 15.2
India 1.1

Variation in divorce rates by religion in USA
Jews 30%
Born-again Christians 27%
Other Christians 24%
Atheists, Agnostics 21%

divorce rates among Christian faith groups
Evangelical Christian congregations 34%
Baptists 29%
Mainline Protestants 25%
Mormons 24%
Catholics 21%
Lutherans 21%

Recent studies reveal that 45-55% of married women and 50-60% of married men engage in extramarital sex at some time or another during their relationship.

57% of people have used the Internet to flirt.
One-third of divorce litigation is caused by online affairs.
Approximately 70% of time on-line is spent in chat rooms or sending e-mail!
75% of men and 65% of women admit to having sex with people they work with.
one partner will have an affair in approximately 80 percent of all marriages
http://www.menstuff.org/issues/byissue/infidelitystats.html
The Pied Piper, my friend I know you are a good person!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Dear Piper,

Your hubbie must be quite a guy.
You guys are still together!

Marriage of course isn't compulsory, and it's
likely to occur less frequently (maybe) in the
future, but it's a fair bet people will continue
to fall in love and try to find harmony together
just as they always have.

Here's something I found in a magazine:

"Lust and attraction don't often last. But to me
that sense of contentment, of sharing, of
oneness with another human being - as you walk
together holding hands, when you sit next to
each other reading/watching TV in the evening,
as you laugh simultaneously at a movie or stroll
through a park or on the beach - your souls are
merged. All the world's your paradise.

Beautiful isn't it? Or does it make you cringe?
I'm aware of a certain self-consciousness that
arises when I think of admitting to that kind of
love. I don't want to be accused of being smug or
boasting, and I certainly don't want to
pretend there hasn't been considerable conflict
and pain along the way. But I do want to be
authentic, so I'm making a stand. I know that
kind of love, and there's not enough of it in
the world."

"When we experience that kind of love we know how
nourishing it is and it exists alongside a whole
range of emotions --- even flashes of acute rage.
It can take many years to achieve, decades even -
and it seems to flow parallel to the journey to
self-love."

I've got to stop reading those mags.
They depress the heck out of me!

cont'd...

I don't want to give you the wrong impression...

My husband is my soul-mate. He's capable of
loving fully, with all of his heart.
His honesty, devotion, and unconditional love
bound us together in an inseparable state of
familial bliss that has been unshaken to this day.

I know it isn't always easy to keep the flame
burning. People grow comfortable with each other,
or they become creatures of habit. And they
are not always in tune with their partners.
The key to all of this is that one person
may do all they can to keep their relationship as healthy
as it can be, but it's not enough. No matter how healthy
you become, your partner has to be working alongside you.
If he doesn't, it's not going to work.

I count my blessings every day - but I never, ever take
anything for granted ...

Checking up on your contract now are you PP? Bit late to be wondering now what you’re in for. Didn’t seem to worry you too much then, aye?

But it’s been 13 years and I bet the average life expectancy when those vows first came out was about 15 years, max. Post wedding day, that is. That’s why we came up with the no fault divorce about 3 decades ago, and more recently, a CS formula to die for. Vows can mean whatever you want them to mean. In fact, that hubby of yours should be proposing every single day to a woman like you. You of course, have the right to refuse him on any of those occasions. Especially when he’s not asking!!

Seriously though, sounds like those vows were given under duress when all you wanted was a piece of paper. Such circumstances wouldn’t even stand up to a simple consent test - if you were a proper feminist PP, you could’ve milked it for a small fortune by now. Disappointing really, but you’re happy and that’s all that matters. (;-)

Foxy: <<"When we experience that kind of love we know how
nourishing it is and it exists alongside a whole
range of emotions --- even flashes of acute rage.
It can take many years to achieve, decades even -
and it seems to flow parallel to the journey to
self-love."

I've got to stop reading those mags.
They depress the heck out of me!>>

Why, self-love not going so parallel?

Houellebecq: [ice sculptures, had a few lines, but snorted them ... elsewhere, wishing your drinks were spiked]

Man, you're a regular party girl - no wonder you lack the most basic commitment skills, LOL.

The Pied Piper
"what it was all about and are their real circumstances that void vows"
My good friend is "void vows" synonymous with "Reasons" for Divorce?

She was unfaithful 22%
We grew apart 21%
We fell out of love 16%
We argued constantly 13%
No longer sexually attracted 5%
I was unfaithful 3%
Other 20%

Couple has conflicting personal beliefs
Couple’s marital satisfaction decreases
Desertion
Adultery
Cruel treatment
Bigamy
Imprisonment
Spousal Indignities
Institutionalization
Irretrievable Breakdown of some kind

"People who thought of divorcing their spouse are 2.46 times more likely to actually be divorced ... three years later....I have one who I wish would stop hugging me, another is dribbling ... he will marry ...."

After they experienced the divorce, would respondents still have gone ahead with it?

Female, it was the right decision 115 votes
Female, it was the wrong decision 29 votes
Male, it was the right decision 60 votes
Male, it was the wrong decision 44 votes

1.Atheists take marriage more seriously.
2. Atheists cohabit before marriage .
3. Atheists have an equal relationship with their mates.
4. Atheists reject the patriarchal model.
I am atheist
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

The Pied Piper i've never married a woman
because marriage is a method by which men control women.

Foxy thanks for that. Are these like online mags or something? I’m guessing it didn’t mean literally having your husband working alongside you but both heading in same direction.

That’s the thing with the vows aye, wonder how many couples parked up and talked about what they each mean by what they are about promise?

“Your hubbie must be quite a guy.
You guys are still together!”

He is quite amazing, he acknowledges and appreciates what a lovely wife he has and voices it often.[grin]

Seeker when did vows first come out – do you mean life expectancy wasn’t that great? What is a CS formula?

But you are right, I never thought about what I had said or had sworn to until a couple of days ago. The legal stuff doesn’t concern me as much compared to a promise one has made. I’m big on promises, I don’t even utter a promise to a little kid unless absolutely certain I can deliver.

I watched Germaine Greer a little while ago now on TV again stating how she feels about housewives. She always goes on about female’s choices but the message I get is that if we aren’t out there working in an office we are somehow letting the team down.

Whistler I think the vows I spoke were pretty even but obviously I’m not 100% certain. I never thought about a marriage being controlling by its very nature but wouldn’t how a marriage is run be up to the individual personalities within the marriage?

I don’t think that stuff is talked about either but evolves over time. Daughter rang the other afternoon asking me to ask hubby to pick her up from work, I asked why she didn’t ask him herself and the reply was something about me acting dense and that everyone knows if I’m the one that asks he will say yes. My response was a dismissal of the suggestion and her description of me… cleverly I wrapped it up all in one word. She may have been right, some things do just evolve.

'because marriage is a method by which men control women.'

Classic. You'd get on with SJF I reckon!

Then why are women often so keen for it and men often not?

How old are you? I think these days women hold a lot of the cards. Actually even in the old days, I know from observing many parents of friends and family and friends that the wife was boss of the house.

The amount of Dads that had lists made by their wife of all their jobs to do on the weekend, with pocket money given by their wives for beer and being dragged along to family stuff when they wanted to go to the pub or watch sport on TV instead!

I always read of these terrible downtrodden chattel pre-feminism, but my grandparents always looked like they had a happy marriage, and if anything grandma was running the show that's for sure.

G'Day All,
I would just like to say that verse from your Nieces Wedding Foxy is BLOODY BEAUTIFUL & thanks for sharing it with us all.
From Dave

Dear Piper,

No it didn't mean literally working alongside.
Perhaps I should have made it a bit clearer.
Although I did say that the key to all this
is that if only one person does all they can to
keep their relationship healthy - it's not enough.
It takes two. If the other partner doesn't try,
then it's like one hand clapping. It has to meet
the other hand to make the sound of applause.
In other words - it takes two to make any
relationship a success.

Dear dwg,

Thank You - I loved the words as well.

Dear seeker,

Not at all. I was just trying not to sound too
cliched. Is all.
My second post was what I really felt.

Houellebecq, marriage ceremonies conducted under
Australian law have their origin as contracts recognising
a man's ownership of a woman. whilst property laws
have changed and women have gained ownership of
themselves in their own right, marriage ceremonies
are still conducted under law which provides for men's
legislatures only. marriage ceremonies are blatantly
sexist despite the many permutations women and men
have achieved to accommodate a sexist legal regime.
my age?, my abridged bio is here. [ http://2mf.net/philip.htm ]
I have enjoyed three significant de facto marriages
sans ceremony, my most recent wife passed away aged
47 years from a stroke a few years ago.
these days i spend most of my free time with my
daughter and grandaughter.

Whistler, wow.

Amazing stuff and I know nothing about art but it feels very “clean” with the lines and almost like looking at quilts. That “first site government house” one seemed very different from the paintings. Do you always paint standing with the painting quite low?

I loved them and haven’t seen anything like them before.

I am sorry to hear about your wife and I hope you are enjoying your wee granddaughter.

Hey Foxy, yeah nah I thought it was more about direction rather than a literal thing. I’m just wrapping my thoughts around what you just said about both together and taking two, one hand clapping and all that. You know Yabby’s thread and the paralyzed dude? I never did go read about him but if he was married and vows said etc – would that be a situation where vows become void or do vows never become void?

Would that be a situation where society would understand one married person leaving their partner? “Sickness and in Health” not really meaning that kind of devastating sickness?

I guess if you have two normal people, limited hang-ups with normal IQ’s etc then a partnership is sometimes about one taking charge, being stronger, carrying both people etc for a time and hopefully it isn’t always the same person each time. Or you pick your strengths and take assumed roles all the time. Or it evolved into the roles but hopefully both are happy with them.

I am actually confusing myself even more.

DEAR The Pied Piper
I am in love with a nice lady!, I THINK with the best woman in the universe!
The words are ver poor to express her value for me.
Only a god knows, if he/she exists, the size and the quality of my love for my sweet girl.
I ASKED MY HONEY TO SPEED UP THE PROCCES FOR HER DIVORCE.
I promised (vow)her that always I will love her with the same passion as I love her NOW.
My good friend you are lucky. You do not have this kind of "problems"
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Piper

I have had the formal marriage, when very young and temporarily naive. Being a fast learner, I managed to escape from that. Done the de facto thing - we both just went in different directions - at least I wasn't abused like when I was married. So it was an amicable break-up and still friends.

Have had lots of casual relationships which suited me for a while, during which I decided I really like my own space.

Right now my relationship is one where we live separately (for the most part) and I'm the happiest I have ever been. I have both freedom and the love of a very special man. We have been together 3 years now. Will it last? How long is a piece of string? He or I may be run over by a Mack truck or become besotted by someone else - who knows? Life changes; best to move with it.

Oops forgot main topic. Wedding Vows - fairly traditional except we left out the wife obeying the husband and vice versa. I think Whistler has a point because even though I was a very independent person even back then - everything changed after the wedding - he seemed to think he owned me. I think I spent the first part of my marriage in a state of disbelief, I didn't want to think that I had made such a big mistake. Of course, hindsight is crystal clear and there were signs but I was too young to realise it. Nowadays I can recognise a control-freak a mile off.

The Pied Piper, the painting “first site government house”
depicts my studio in 1982 at 50 Phillip Street, Sydney.
i painted the picture for my mother
who is a child of the Heidleberg school
and friend of the Angry Penguins
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angry_Penguins
after i'd returned from Europe.
she turns 93 next month.
painting, i prefer pillows and cushions and cups of tea.
sometimes i get sidetracked but not very often.

"one taking charge, being stronger, carrying both people etc for a time and hopefully it isn’t always the same person each time.."

My friend it is not easy to create the right relations, the happy relations, the lasting relations. both sides must show from the very begin their sensitivities, their hopes, their expectations, their personalities and characters.
Some people are very polite and patient other less, some people have open character some not, some..some.. What if I thing you like this role when in realy you did it because you thought that with this way you will make me happy? Or because you expected from me to take an other role which you do not like? How can I know which roles you like or not? How can you know which roles I like or not? Are we sure that both sides show(past) their real personalities, character, sensitivities etc from the very begin or we show(past) something different, something confusing, something grey, yes and no or no and yes?
If both sites are not idiots and both sites want to create lasting relations then they should be honest and strait from the very begin.
" I am an honest person, I love you, I want permanent relations with you but please help me to understand you, show me your self, what makes you happy, what you like, what you enjoy. I love you very much, do not worry, I love your character, your personality and I love all your sides each one separate, I love all your sites equaly. When we know and love the other site then we do what the other side like or expect from us, then we create happy relations, lasting relations"
THE KEY FOR SUCCESFULL LASTING RELATIONS IS WHAT WE DO FOR THE OTHER SIDE, MORE WE CREATE AND GIVE TO THE OTHER SITE WE CREATE MORE HAPPINES, BETER AND STRONGEST RELATIONS WITH OUR MATE.
If one site gives everything and the other side very little then we have problem, then soon or later the relations will break.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

"if one site gives everything"
The real meaning is if one site is ready to give everything, if one site likes to give everything, if one site tries to give everything"

Dear Piper,

All this talk about marriage has made me realize
that I've forgotten to wish Col Rouge every
happiness for his up coming wedding.

Dear Col, this is for you and your Lady:

"It is an extraordinary honour to become
close to another human being, to glimpse
their inner reality, vulnerability and tenderness.
Taking this honour seriously, you experience
the wonder of it.
You are formed, shaped, illuminated and chastened,
supported and cared for by those people who know
you best. Opening your heart and mind, you see how
deeply those people affect you and how much you are
affecting them. This power to affect others is your
greatest blessing. It is also your greatest responsibility.
The best and most beautiful to the world cannot be seen
or even touched they must be felt within the heart."

Congratulations and Wishing You Both Every Happiness!

G'Day All,
To Col & Partner I would just like to wish you both happiness & hope that only happiness falls upon you.
From Dave

Hey Fractelle, it is a weird thing these relationships. We live and learn but the time it takes and what we need to suffer to do this learning is damn annoying. I wish there was an easier way to become who we are later.

Own space – magic. I had it once, for a few days before I left Christchurch to move here; I had sent the kids to grandparents in Queensland, Hubby was in Sydney, the dog was at the kennels waiting for his flight and there was me in a Motel alone, I loved every little moment of it. But in the end my overactive imagination got the better of me and I kept thinking Aussie was going to get hit by a bomb and sink and my little family was here without me. Hubby came back to get me and then we were alone for a couple days for the first time with no kids – Magic!

See if you felt controlled or were controlled soon as married then yeah he was a freak. I felt all kinda gushy and soon after the ex (didn’t marry him) signed the kids up for name changes so we could all be the same last name. Somehow that made a big difference to all of us. He asked soon after if my husband could adopt them – now there is a man trying to get out of Child Support. Bless the fool. My kids asked if they could all my husband dad but that was a step too far, the fool was their dad for better or for worse.[smile]

Fractelle, you were not treated right and I feel bad for the you back then. I am very pleased to have come across you online now, you’re honest and clear but most of all interesting.

Morning Whistler, your mum is 93 – she must have some good stories. What is Heidleberg school? I’m guessing you grew up just surrounded with people that know things about everything. I never knew how much I didn’t know until recently.

I get sidetracked too!

G'Day All,
Marriage, Weddings, Unions, Matrimony, How ever said is a major commitment & has burdens that are greater than a single person can bear as the pronouncment is the joining or coming together of two as one.
It then stands to reason for a marriage to succeed requires both parties working as one, & it will not succeed if only one tries as the burden will overwhelm them.
An interesting point as to "Older" marriages & why the "Love,Honour & Obey" was that the man was responsible for the crimes of not only himself but also his wife & all children of that marriage until the children came of age.
That is a point that wasn't & isn't mentioned very much when the talk gets to why a man had the final say over family matters but the day to day running of the home was the realm of the woman.
As society is the destruction of the individual then so are governments the destruction of marriage.
Thanks for your time Dave

When I say to my love, "Do you want to send to you my credit and use when you need it" Ii means that I care for my partner and I fully trust you. WE CAN NOT SPEAK FOR LOVE when we do not trust and care for our partner.
When I tell to my partner "I prefer your children, to come with us than to go with your relatives or ok BUT TELL THEM OUR DOORS AND OUR HUGES ALWAYS WILL BE OPEN FOR THEM" This is love
When I say to my partner " I do not expect from you any cents for the next 4-5 years. I want to support you to stand on your feet, to support you to become intependent financialy from me, I want from you to stay with me because you love me, NOT BECAUSE YOU DEPEND FINANCIALKY FROM ME, GO BACK TO UNIVERSITY!"This is love.
WE CAN NOT SPEAK FOR LOVE when we do not care very much if we live together or not when we are not close to our partner when he/she needs us, when our partner suffer or is at risk. Personaly I prefer when I go to sleep to give her a soft kiss, or to make her a tea, or to measure her happines from her smile or the shine of her eyes.
WE CAN NOT SPEAK FOR LOVE when our goals, our dreams, our hopes our characters, our values, our interests are very different, OK WE CAN SPEAK FOR A CONTRACT BUT THIS IS NOT LOVE! When I ignore, underestimate or hate her dreams, her hopes, her goals how I can love and support her? IT IS NECCESSARY A MINIMUM OF COMMON VALUES AND DIRECTIONS AND INDERESTS.
WE CAN NOT SPEAK FOR LOVE when we are interested mainly for our personal goals and underestimate her goals. LOVE MEANS GIVEN, CARING, SUFFERING, COMMON DREAMS AND HOPES, COMMON FUTURE.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

some weekends i've spotted seven wedding parties
at the Opera House and Sydney CBD.
owning women is a costly business
especially with men's religions.

i'll be eligible for marriage when Australia
is an equal rights republic.

The Pied Piper, my great grandfather
painted with the Heidelberg School
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidelberg_School

his father applied for the position of artist on the
Burke and Wills expedition only to witness the departure.

Whistler

Speaking of the Heidelberg Movement, while studying Landscape Architecture, one of the projects I signed on for during 3rd year was conducted by Frederick McCubbin's grandson - I can't remember his first name. He is an architect, but I could never forget his skill at sketching - what would take me a half hour, he could do in seconds. But I imagine given the family he was from, drawing would've been a part of everyday life. Not the case for me. I have to admit to being both in awe of him and a little jealous. However, I am not the only one who can draw in my family, my Aunt and a cousin were pretty good too.

BTW My ex-husband most definitely saw marriage as a way of 'owning' someone.

Antonius

I agree with your perceptions on what a relationship is about and vows have little do to with it.

Piper

We have paid our dues for our experience and knowledge, I think. Your man better continue to treat you with the love and respect you deserve.

Cheers

Whistler I must say I don’t understand these big weddings. Any big expensive unnecessary event annoys me; I’m one of those people who always has it running around in my mind just what could have been done to help someone if they had chosen to give instead of indulge. But these thoughts are usually directed at the female who I suspect wanted the indulgence.

Is Scotland a republic now?

I was expecting the Heidelberg school to be anything but Australian. Your elders painted in a similar way to the painting in the link?

Does your mum still paint? I went and looked up the Burke and Wills thing and your great great granddad was lucky by the looks of it.

What did you think of what Dave (dwg) said:

“ An interesting point as to "Older" marriages & why the "Love,Honour & Obey" was that the man was responsible for the crimes of not only himself but also his wife & all children of that marriage until the children came of age.”

I never thought of it like that before. Some kind of fairness in the inequality previously? I should add I don’t feel it, I feel very equal in my marriage/home etc.

Hiya Fractelle my man is a keeper. And I bet me and you both wish we’d met our men a couple of decades earlier.

it's another gorgeous sunny Sunday in Sydney and
no doubt there will be many women ownership ceremonies on the harbour.
i can understand why a woman would want the security of ownership in a patriachy
but i question the insecurities of men to form and maintain patriarchies in the first place.
if stock strayed and caused damage compensation could be sought, so it was with a wife.

Fractelle, there are many inspirations from art, architecture is one.
my ancestors were some of the first to use photography in Australia.
i seem to have been caught up in the avant-garde side of things
to the distraction of a full-time career in the arts
having spent most of my adult life involved in the politics of indigenous communities.

I thought the Heidelberg school's biggest contribution was an Australian way of painting no longer aping the European style. With precise lines individual leaves on trees and darker (non Australian) light and colours etc. Where the Heidelberg school introduced impressionism and were among the first to capture the light and feel of Australia.

Snadel Cratcher,
I was interested to hear they were into design as well.

Girls,
Come on, what happened to perspective and context?
Of course it was/is(?) patriarchal it is a religious ceremony/concept!
Which of the mass religions aren't? To be fair part of the concept was imbued with protection of the family and women. However the primary purposes were to ensure the next generation of subjects for the religion/hierarchy and therefore maintain power.
The main reason vows are were invented at all were to "ensure"(?) loyalty/commitment to the hierarchy, King or Queen.(remember Boadicea)
Marriage vows/ceremony exist to day is due to cultural imprinting and yes women want it because it encourages commitment to them...security for them to have children....plain and simple. Thus the wording is inline with this cultural imprinting.
Conversely some deliberately don't as an act of 'independence' rather than the obsolete nature of the institution.

Govts endorse it as a means of control and book keeping.

All this latter day woman's lib, sisterhood etc bit, while it originated because of changes in social perceptions, much of it is simply doctrinal (a means to claim women as being one mass and
power mechanism for others... club-like)
NB I'm not saying things are fair and shouldn't change.

Sorry girls, I believe in equitable rights for all not doctrine and dogma.
In truth some men are lumps and arguments for birth control as are some women. Injustice is injustice regardless of gender etc. Simply replacing one form of (gender)injustice with another is simply moving the power advantage and isn't HUMAN RIGHTS.

PS I've just moved to an undisclosed protected site for my own self preservation

(;-o (me with my hard hat on)

Hey Piper, Fractelle,

What'd he say?

“Hey Piper, Fractelle,
What'd he say?”

Foxy shoosh, I was going to wait until someone else replied and try figure it out from there.

Tell ya though, before using the word “deconstruction” I looked it up and got this:

“a method of analyzing texts based on the ideas that language is inherently unstable and shifting and that the reader rather than the author is central in determining meaning. It was introduced by the French philosopher Jacques Derrida in the late 1960s.”

Which is possibly the right answer where wedding vows are concerned?

Dear Piper,

You've just made me spill my coffee.
Thank You, I really needed to laugh today.

I came across this poem in an old photo
album - written by Mason Williams (I think) -
which I'd like to share:

"Come my love and we shall wander
All of life to see and know
In the season's lostward rambling
All things come and all things go

We shall climb the snowy mountains
Sail across the rolling sea
We shall live for one another
I for you and you for me

We'll go down to green grass meadows
Where the cold winds never blow
If we taste the wine of loving
Only you and I shall know

Come my love and we shall wander
Just to see what we can find
If we only find each other
Still the journey's worth the time!"

Have I told you and darling Fractelle that
if it wasn't for you two - OLO would not
be as enjoyable?

cont'd ...

Here's another one by Mason Williams that
I found that might appeal to the guys...
This one I got off the web:

"This must be done with the most intense
of hokey accents and howling, weeping and
gnashing of teeth only add to the drama" :

It's title is - "You Done Stompt on My Heart."

"I told you that I loved you
You said that it was good
I called you my darlin'
I thought I always would
But now you've gone and left me
I don't know what to do
And so my little darlin'
I write these words for you:

(chorus)
Well you done stomped on my heart
And mashed that sucker flat
You just kinda sorta,
stomped on my aorta

You started goin' round with guys
I felt us drift apart
And then with every step you took
Twas a stomp upon my heart

(spoken)
I only hope that someday
You'll get those low-down blues
And in some smokey honkey tonk
You'll look down at your shoes

And you'll think about that tender heart
You crushed beneath them soles
With those big bloody stompers
You filled my heart with holes

(And with feeling, the chorus one last time)
Well you done stomped on my heart
And mashed that sucker flat...."

Fractelle = cradle Snatching (joke)
I am younger than my wife.

Foxy were you referring to me with the 'huh?'
If so sorry curse that home brew!
I was in essence saying the concepts of marriage and vows have been appropriated by religions i.e. Christians which is patriarchal ..god the father, son and holy spook. Marriage is essentially a cultural throw back to the need to protect women and children and ensure the next generation of subjects.
The original purpose of vows was to 'fix' allegiances to the hierarchy which was not always male i.e Queen Boadicea et al.
Govts etc use marriage ceremonies vows etc to keep track of and enforce sovereignty over individuals i.e Aussies beget Aussies
In reality we have been culturally conditioned to this idea of ceremony/vows.
There is still a lag in that most women and many men want the emotional security provided by marriage.

The last bit simply means that the notion and practice of women's lib simply imposed another bias into society.
To me replacing one bias with another becomes a battle between the genders when the real game should be HUMAN rights. wrong is wrong (full stop).
Today much of what passes for feminism is doctrinal which facilitates the gender battle which in turn distracts from the real battle Human Rights and equity for all...equality has overtones of all the same. Women are women men are men and viva la diference
I suspect that this idea wouldn't be popular to some so hence I am writing this with a disguise on. |-) got it now ? Blame the home brew...speaking of which I feel a thirst coming on. :-

Hey Foxy why aren’t you laughing more today? One poem beautiful and one clever and funny. Thank you for your effort and your thoughts. Whistler was spot on, today was gorgeous in Sydney and even a couple of hours north like I am. Hubby left on business trip so now my whingey needy side has kicked in. I will start with the most romantic song I know.[smile]

When I wake up yeah I know I'm gonna be
I'm gonna be the man who wakes up next to you
When I go out yeah I know I'm gonna be
I'm gonna be the man who goes along with you

If I get drunk yes I know I'm gonna be
I'm gonna be the man who gets drunk next to you
And if I haver yeah I know I'm gonna be
I'm gonna be the man who's havering to you

But I would walk 500 miles
And I would walk 500 more
Just to be the man who walked 1000 miles
To fall down at your door

When I'm working yes I know I'm gonna be
I'm gonna be the man who's working hard for you
And when the money comes in for the work I'll do
I'll pass almost every penny on to you

When I come home yeah I know I'm gonna be
I'm gonna be the man who comes back home to you
And if I grow old well I know I'm gonna be
I'm gonna be the man who's growing old with you

But I would walk 500 miles
And I would walk 500 more
Just to be the man who walked 1000 miles
To fall down at your door

When I'm lonely yes I know I'm gonna be
I'm gonna be the man whose lonely without you
When I'm dreaming yes I know I'm gonna dream
Dream about the time when I'm with you.

Chorus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69AvNm8zubo

Keep the happy thoughts alive Foxy.

Dear Examinator,

Yes -it was you I was referring to.
I was teasing - and you called me on it,
(by going to all that trouble to further explain).
Thank You - you're a gentleman - and I'm naughty.

Dear Piper,

(Sigh, swoon), what beautiful words - loved it!
Except I can't view anything on u-tube -
I've got an old crap computer - very basic -
and limited. I keep hoping that someone from
the family will buy me a new one - sometime soon.

As to why I haven't laughed recently?
I did a silly thing - all my own fault -
but I've learned my lesson (hopefully),
and won't repeat the same mistake again.
I'm fine - and it was an educational experience
of what not to do.

Thanks for your concern though.

Before I forget - (you're going to laugh) -
I've picked up something from reading your
posts on OLO - I hadn't noticed I was doing
it - but hubbie asked, "Why are you finishing
your sentences with the word - "aye"
"Blame Piper," says I with a smile.
He just looked at me puzzled.
Then I explained. He loved it.
As do we all!

Such a pleasure reading the last few pages, people.

Thank you.

Examinator, p'raps you should ease up on the analysis (notice its prefix 'anal',bet you thought that was a coincidence). Gentle smile with hint of teasing in eyes. By no means give up the home brew - I am told it is chock full of goodness.

About feminism, the time in western countries is to focus on human equity. Although must point out latest news, that here in Australian women still earn 30% less than male counterparts. However, feminism is still a vital need in those countries where women aren't allowed outside without wearing a tent and in the company of a male, where they are not educated, where acid is thrown in their face for simply being human and where weddings are about business deals between men (I knew I could link back to topic).

Foxy and Piper - an honour to know you both. Foxy a shame you can't access Youtube, source of solace and entertainment for me AND you have missed all my marvellous links. That poem about "heart stomping" I thought rather fitted other characters who bitterly lurk OLO.

Whistler, learning more about you and enjoying the experience.

The rain is fairly p!$$ing down here this morning and in Victoria, that is a good thing.

Cheers

G'Day All,
Weddings & Marriage?
Marriage is supposed to be the ultimate announcement of ones love for another & that that love is so great that two are prepared to live as one to meet their greater goals.
That greater goal is reproduction & the continuance of the human race.There is no greater gift that a woman can give a man than to suffer the birth of a mans child.
The role of the woman was to bear the child, nurture, comfort & give the child a secure base from which to venture from & run to in their learning years.
The role of the man was to supply & protect that secure base for the woman & to do this a man needed his family to abide by his decisions he made so he could keep that base safe & secure.
Marriage therefore is then the bringing of these instincts together for the betterment of the children of that marriage & progress the human race.
Then we must strive to enhance that which will bring the children to a better understanding of what the human race is & where we differ from other mammals & animals (not real sure between me & ape) & form a stategy to bring about a true understanding of human rights & the responsibilities that go with them.
Although bitten (chewed severely actually) from my marriage I would still recommend it to anyone. Thanks from Dave

Love's Philosophy
by Percy Bysshe Shelley

The fountains mingle with the river
And the rivers with the ocean,
The winds of Heaven mix for ever
With a sweet emotion;
Nothing in the world is single,

All things by a law divine
In one spirit meet and mingle -
Why not I with thine?

See the mountains kiss high Heaven
And the waves clasp one another;
No sister-flower would be forgiven
If it disdained its brother;
And the sunlight clasps the earth,
And the moonbeams kiss the sea -
What are all these kissings worth
If thou kiss not me?

Dwg: “Although bitten (chewed severely actually) from my marriage I would still recommend it to anyone.”

That makes no sense Dave – why would you do such a thing.

I’m starting to really appreciate whistler’s wisdom here. He’s is one of the better excuses I’ve heard for avoiding commitment to crazy power imbalances found in today’s marriages; yet so exquisitely plausible.

Indeed, why would any man own a woman at such exorbitantly inflated costs of ownership? Much better not to own at a time when vows are meaningless and contract so unenforceable ;-)

G'Day All,
Seeker, A marriage is not ownership it is the giving of oneself to a union that should enhance the contentment of both & satisfy & compliment each other.
I suppose you would prefer to be a bachelor & bring your kids up to be the same way.
A woman who gives of herself to a man still has the right of free will & is not a bought & paid for item although I wonder at times. Neither is the man the absolute rule of a marriage & is not the owner of that marriage he is only a partner in that marriage & is there to secure the home so the woman has a safe & secure place to raise that mans children.
Further I would recommend marriage because it is a declaration of ones love for another & if treated right can be the most rewarding thing one could do in ones lifetime it is just a matter of faith.
Thanks for your time from Dave

Fractelle,
Your point noted even if your etymology is suspect.
Just a quick point or two before I go and get two mirrors for a better examination.
First a proposition is only as good as its ability withstand analysis otherwise it's a bias, prejudice.

If the objective is to gain equity in all things (including wage parity) how is addressing as a Human rights issue compromising/denying that?
Conversely by making it a battle of the genders opens the issue up to claims of simply superimposing one bias/prejudice on the other in which case there is still injustice. Just the power play is different.

Those who overtly or aggressively promote the issue in those terms open themselves to exactly the same odious crimes.

Like I said what happened to logic,objectivity and proportion.
I'm in the front line of campaigning for equity regardless if the recipient is male,female, gay, transsexual or a child. the base issue is the same HUMAN right. In essence the method can compromise the objective.

G'Day All,
Off the beaten track, something that I was given to read.
Eve's Side of The Story.
After three weeks in the Garden of Eden, God came to visit Eve.
"So, how is everything going?"inquired God.
"It is all so beautiful, God,"she replied. "the sunrises & sunsets are breathtaking, the smells, the sights, everything is wonderful, but I have just one problem.
It's these breasts you have given me. The middle one pushes the other two out & I am constantly knocking them with my arms, catching them on branches & snagging them on bushes. They're a real pain."
And Eve went on to tell God that since many other parts of her body came in pairs, such as her limbs,eyes,ears,etc. She felt that having only two breasts might leave her body more "symmetrically balanced."
"That's a fair point," replied God. "But it was my first shot at this, youknow. I gave the animals six breasts, so I figured that you needed only half of those, but I see that you are right ....I will fix it up right away."
And God reached down, removed the middle breast & tossed it into the bushes.
Three weeks passed & God once again visited Eve in the Garden of Eden.
"Well, Eve, how is my favourite creation?"
"Just fantastic,"she replied, "But for one oversight. You see, all the animals are paired off. The ewe has a ram & the cow has her bull. All the animals have a mate except me. I feel so alone..."
"God thought for a moment & said "you know, Eve, you are right. How could I have overlooked this? You do need a mate & I will immediately create a man from a part of you. Let's see...Where did I put that useless Tit?"
Now doesn't THAT make more sense than all that crap about the rib?
" For the men with a sense of humour & women who figure this makes sense.
Thanks from Dave

Houellebecq, ours will be a “stylish marriage”, small but well presented

Whistler “because marriage is a method by which men control women.”

I know my future wife disagrees with you, especially since she is very financially independent and is freely engaging in this “contract”

(this marriage is not what we “need”. It is all about what we “want”)

TPP “He is quite amazing, he acknowledges and appreciates what a lovely wife he has and voices it often.[grin]”

One of the secrets of a great marriage … mutual adoration, repeatedly expressed and demonstrated.

Re Germaine Greer – what would she know.. she has built her ego and reputation by beating up other women (even more than men).

Dwg thankyou for your wishes.

For what it is worth

I had only one simple and absolute expectation from a future wife/life partner :

“someone who wants me as much as I want them”

I have that.

Our vows are still to be discussed but they will not include the word “Obey”.

dwg marriage jokes….

Maria and Luigi on their wedding night…. (my apologies to any Italians reading.. it’s the way it was told to me)

Luigi takes off his trousers and throws them across at Maria

“Put on my trousers Maria” … little Maria protests but Luigi insists….

She pulls up the trousers and they immediately fall back down… the waist line being twice the size of Marias tiny waist….

Luigi say “See Maria… now you know who wears the trousers in this marriage”

Maria. Feels silly and humiliated until she has an idea and throws her panties across at Luigi

“Luigi… put on my panties” she proclaims

Luigi tries to protest but Maria reminds him how she complied

Luigi struggles but can only get one leg into the panties and then only up to the knee

He eventually throws the panties back at Maria and say.. “No this is impossible”

And Maria simply turns to Luigi and says..

“Now we understand one another, Luigi…..

If I do not wear the trousers, you do not get into my panties!”

Oh Foxy that “aye” thing is awful and common, my first English pseudo type in-laws always made fun of it and it’s a terrible habit to get out of. Now if talking to Kiwi teens you’ll often get a response of “yeah aye”. Means nothing but shuts most adults up as it sounds like an agreement.

I get the computer thing, up until recently I didn’t have speakers on my computer which annoyed me no end. My local shops are a bit limited so hubby usually picks stuff up a bit further afield and he is the most forgetful man on the planet.

Quick story – first partner brings home an IBM tower, his first big all grown up proper computer and it was obviously love at first sight. The things is huge and most impressive. It is still sitting by itself in the middle of the lounge floor like a trophy come morning when 18 months old gets up and the first thing the wee fella does is push it over and gosh it made quite a startling crashing sound.

Partner wanders out and oh the look on his face, he looks at his puter and back to the toddler then just glares at me. Well I just launched “How dare you leave the thing where a baby could get it, do you know how much damage that could have done if it fell on his foot….ad infinitum” It is never too early in the morning for me to re-direct blame.

You did a silly thing? Welcome to my world.[smile]

Col:”One of the secrets of a great marriage … mutual adoration, repeatedly expressed and demonstrated.”

It is a good feeling wondering this earth knowing you are loved just for being you. I figure if me and my husband are 13 years in and have had no doubts then that is an excellent beginning. But I felt the same way 12 years ago etc. I imagine you’ll be feeling it right now.

Are you doing your own vows Col?

Seeker:”I’m starting to really appreciate whistler’s wisdom here. He’s is one of the better excuses I’ve heard for avoiding commitment to crazy power imbalances found in today’s marriages; yet so exquisitely plausible.”

Ease up turbo. Whistler as always makes good points but I just can’t imagine if Whistler were to enter into matrimony that he would use the marriage for control. I went to Saudi with hubby and he didn’t change even with a whole society feeling very differently about women.

Fractelle, 'sup girlfriend.

Dear Piper,

I love the "aye," thing!
But I'll make a note - and take your advice
not to use it too often.

As for the computer - again - I'm learning heaps
from you - what if I just "crashed," mine?
Maybe it might work towards getting a new one?
(Yes - and the sun might not rise tomorrow).

Dear Dwg,

Thanks for your joke about Eve.
I enjoyed it very much.
And I also enjoyed Col's Italian joke.

Now I've got one as well - hopefully you haven't
heard it.

"St Peter greets three women at the Pearly Gates.
"Welcome to Paradise, ladies. I'm sure you'll
have a lovely time, but we do have some rules
to make your eternal stay more pleasant.

We're a little overrun with ducks at the moment and it's
important you don't stand on any of them. You can do
anything, just don't stand on a duck!

It got to day two and the first woman accidentally
stood on a duck.

Oh no! Suddenly she found herself handcuffed to the
ugliest, smelliest, most revolting man she could possibly
imagine - for eternity! She would be chained to this
hideous, lecherous man forever!

The other two women decided to take more care. But one
night, as they were stumbling back from the Paradise Bar
with a few drinks under their belts, the second woman
stumbled and uh-oh - she stood on a duck!

Immediately the same thing happened: she found herself
handcuffed to the most grotesque, hideous, putrid man.
Forever.

After that, the third woman commenced a daily chant:
"Must not stand on a duck, must not stand on a duck."

For two years she chanted this mantra and this managed
to keep her feet feather-free. But then all of a sudden,
out of nowhere, one day she found herself handcuffed
to a really divine looking man. A completely gorgeous
and handsome male. "I don't understand," she said.
"What have I done to deserve this?"

"I don't know," he replied, equally confused.
"All I know is that I stood on a duck!" :)

I too am a great believer in the commitment of marriage.
This thread has turned right around and I have enjoyed reading the last few posts greatly!
I was beginning to think no one had a sense of humour on OLO, but now I see I was wrong.
Col- lol, I loved the Italian joke, and so true!

Dwg, you have restored my faith in male romance. I am sure I preferred your version of Adam and Eve, and it is surely no more unbelievable than the bible version?

Fractelle, Foxy and Antonious, always a pleasure to read your posts as you are always the voices of reason on these pages!

I think I am enjoying this so much, I hope to be a regular like you guys one day.
Cheers, Sue.

The Art of Marriage:

"Happiness in marriage is not something that just
happens. A good marriage must be created. In the
Art of Marriage: the little things are the big ones.
It is never being too old to hold hands. It is
remembering to say 'I love you' at least once a day.
It is never going to sleep angry. It is at no time
taking the other for granted. It is having a mutual
sense of values and common objectives. It is standing
together facing the world.

It is forming a circle of love that gathers in the
whole family. It is doin things for each other,
not in the attitude of duty or sacrifice, but in the
spirit of joy. It is speaking words of appreciation and
demonstrating gratitude in thoughtful ways.

It is cultivating flexibility, patience, understanding
and a sense of humour. It is having the capacity to
forgive and forget. It is giving each other an atmosphere
in which each can grow. It is finding room for the things
of the spirit. It is a common search for the good and the
beautiful. It is establishing a relationship in which the
independence is equal, dependence is mutual and the
obligation is reciprocal.

It is not only marrying the right partner, it is being the
right partner."

Foxy tell me about your computer.
1. What operating system do you have in your computer? XP? 2000 PROFESSIONAL. MILENIUM EDITION , 98 OR 95?
2. Have you speakers and connect them in the right slot, usualy there three slots in the sound card, try one after the other to see if you connest them in the right slots.
3. Have got a sound card on your computer? Is the sound card build in on the motherboard or installed on a PCI slot?
4. Did you install the right drivers for the sound card or you did not install and sound drivers?
5. Did you have ever speakers on this computer? If yes what happen and you lost the sound? Did you install a new operating system and you don have sound drivers for this system or simple you forgot to install the sound card drivers?
6. What internet connection you have? Dial up or broadband?
7. Have you got install flash player in your computer for your tube etc?
8. Did you disable the java scripts on your computer?
9. how much system memory you have on your PC?
10. Do you maintain often your hard drive? when did you difrag your hard drive?
11. How many programs are loaded automatic when you start your computer? How many programs are open when you run your computer?
Foxy the problem you have with your tube etc it is not of cause your old computer but something else, It is very easy to fix it but I live far, if you give me some info in my questions may be I can help you.
You know I am a computer builder, I repair or maintain computers and few of my articles about file systems in the past used in American universities.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide.

G'Day All,
The reason behind the saying women are from Venus & men are from Mars is that there is a whole World between them Thanks from Dave

I just thought of something reading what Suze said about humor… it should have been in my vows and not the serious vows we were blindsided with.

My hubby is the toughest audience ever, I have to really work hard at making him laugh, and it has to be a most excellent jibe, joke, pun… even some purely physical moments of comedy.

Don’t get me wrong, we are grownups and we have big serious conversations about everything and especially all the kids that come and go where some situations just demand we be very sad for awhile or even angry about things that occur out of our control, however he is a more serious and thoughtful person by nature than me.

I smile seeing him smile, adore a grin, take pleasure in a chuckle and consider him actually laughing out loud the best noise on the planet.

Foxy, just go buy a new one, just go do it because you want it and it would make you happy. Fractelle is right, youtube is great. Plus you come up with the best stuff that you’ve gone and found on the internet to further most discussions so we need you in tip top technological form.

Dave, you funny guy. I read that book years ago then read one called “Why men don’t listen and women can’t read maps” which was really good. Last few years has been all child care books and the authors change their mind and retract stuff every few years.

Dear Antonios,

Thank You so much for your kind offer - but
I think I'll take Piper's advice and go and
buy a new computer. I really appreciate your
offer though - you sweet, gentle, man.

Dear Piper,

Yes - I'm going to do it! (Buy a new computer).
And Thanks again for all your compliments -
(You're giving me a swell head). But you're
right - I need to be more 'technologically
advanced.' Just waiting for stuff on the web -
takes ages - it's like watching grass grow.

But, back to the topic...

You asked in your opening post - whether
the vows still applied if the person you married
changed due to dementia, alzheimers, et cetera?
Of course they do - ('for better or
worse').

I've got my own mum as one example in answer
to that question. My father died of a massive
coronary years ago and mum remarried. My step-father
suffered a massive stroke - and was paralysed down
his right side and lost the power of speech. He
continues to have mild seizures. He's now in a
nursing home. Mum visits him every day, sometimes
every second day -
bringing him all sorts of food and fruiit et cetera,
as well as reading material - and whatever else she
feels he needs. She re-shaves him, re-makes his bed,
fusses over him, takes him for walks (in his wheel-chair),
and so on. She spends about four to five hours with him.
She goes in the afternoon.
She no longer drives due to her own dementia and
failing eyesight -
she catches a taxi. My husband drives her when we can
- (and we visit my step-father regularly). He knows he's loved -
and that mum and the family will always be there for him.

G'Day All,
This is one that I read on Spleen Vent,
Men have better friends than women.
A wife goes out at night & doesn;t get home until the next day, so the husband rings her 10 best friends to see where the wife was but none of her friends had seen her.
Subsequently the husband goes out & doesn't get home until the next day, so the wife rings his 10 best friends to see where he was & each of the 10 said he was with them.
Thanks from Dave.

Hey Foxy, good on you – I swear having a new computer would thrill me more than a new pair of shoes. I keep them all tidy and everything in appropriate files – inbox all sorted each day into appropriate folders then I kind of start sliding until everything is an abominable mess and I can’t find a thing. Something I would never tolerate in my home so no idea why I’m so computer sloppy.

You’re mum is amazing, I dread something like that happening. I know I will do it since I would not consider any other option but I wonder what happens when everything is totally one sided like that. Do spirits stay up, does one become resentful or tired?

I don’t have a good understanding of dementia, do they also forget stuff? See if one of the couple forgot who the other one was isn’t it the marriage vows null and void?

That’s what Houel made me think of – I think I always thought “better or for worse” was more about external things around a couple. And when does “worse” become intolerable?

What was that comedy movie where the young chick woke up each day remembering nothing and some guy fell in love with her and had to remind her each morning who he was etc? Good movie but the emotional stamina would freak me out. I’d be mean enough to give them the odd alternative reality just for fun too.

Dave that joke would go down a treat over in Belly’s new thread about faking it. Funny and true.

Foxy: “Dear Piper,
Yes - I'm going to do it! (Buy a new computer).
And Thanks again for all your compliments -
(You're giving me a swell head). But you're
right - I need to be more 'technologically
advanced.' Just waiting for stuff on the web -
takes ages - it's like watching grass grow.”

Get one of those fancy LCD monitors that will let you see more than 50 characters per line and don’t forget to upgrade from the dial-up service too – we’re all using a thing called broadband these days Foxy ;-)

Piper: “What was that comedy movie where the young chick woke up each day remembering nothing and some guy fell in love with her and had to remind her each morning who he was etc?”

50 First Dates. That’s what the movie was called Piper. See, you’re losing your memory already and your computer is in a mess and can’t find anything when you want it. What if you went gaga first and your hubby was wrestling with the meaning of the vows you both took way back then when you both agreed to “Till death do us part”. You can’t just take that back and pretend it didn’t happen (were you faking it?).

Why don’t you have a talk to hubby – I bet he took those vows more seriously than you.

Seeker:”Why don’t you have a talk to hubby – I bet he took those vows more seriously than you.”

Can’t [sniff] he’s out of town [sniff…]. That thing that flies people in the sky… well it better not crash and leave him paralyzed from the waist down or I’m outta here. That better or worse can only be interpreted by the individual saying it I’m starting to believe but to be fair a couple should get to write the small print together.

Tell ya something about my hubby – don’t tell anyone though. He was in an accident in his twenties (bent a car roll cage bar with a Liverpool kiss) and has short and long term dodgy memory, sense of smell is a bit wonky too, I swear he is going to forget he even has a home one day. I could probably put money on him not remembering any of the vows.

Weird that he is some IT God in the workplace but can’t remember to get the milk on the way home on account of his hideous car crash aye.

My ex was my witness at the wedding (see that memory just came flooding back) and there was the “richer or poorer” vow in there because my ex made a definite loud “pfft” noise when the minister looking dude said the word “poorer”. These guys that pay Child Support - nothing is sacred.

Cheers for the name of the movie Seeker, I do remember laughing lots.

Dear Dwg,

Loved your joke - keep them coming!

Dear Piper,

My mum is amazing. However at least she's got
a purpose in life - and she's happy doing
what she does. It keeps her active.
For how much longer though -
is a good question. She definitely forgets
things and gets very easily confused - but
I keep tabs on her - and remind her of
everything. I have to keep checking up on
her - (and monitor everything).

Dear Seeker,

Don't you worry - I'll get Broadband.
Actually, I dream about it constantly ...

Broadband and Hoellebecq - that's the stuff
of dreams - right? (or is there another
name for it?)... :)

The Pied Piper, if a person is diagnosed with dementia
and he or she has not appointed a power of attorney in the event
the Public Guardian assumes the person's liability under a contract of marriage.
http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/opg

PP: “Weird that he is some IT God in the workplace but can’t remember to get the milk on the way home on account of his hideous car crash aye.”

I hear IT can do that to people even when they’re godlike, like. And no, I’ll never tell.

Foxy: “Broadband and Hoellebecq - that's the stuff
of dreams - right? (or is there another
name for it?)... :)”

Jealousy?

Hey Houellebecq, sorry man – that “party girl” gibe posted earlier was totally thoughtless but meant in the nicest possible way.

So here’s how I feel about all that (Foxy, you’ll just have to imagine my pain until you get your new computer ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz9FIacPnks

Dear Seeker,

Jealousy?

No.

Inadequacy - would be more apt...

Foxy
With a bit more practice and a few more year marriage you'll get used to it. ;-)

“The Pied Piper, if a person is diagnosed with dementia
and he or she has not appointed a power of attorney in the event
the Public Guardian assumes the person's liability under a contract of marriage.”

Hey Whistler, Oh I thought my husband would automatically have it and visa versa. He has power of attorney for me in NZ (needed for a house deal when I couldn’t be there). And I have the same for him in NZ (needed for another house deal). He bought the house here in Oz so it’s in his name and then I came over, should really sort that one as I don’t know the laws if he dies. We have Wills in NZ but haven’t done any here.... wow we really should go manage this marriage in a better way.

Hiya Foxy, my parents are both still all good (annoying but self functioning). I haven’t yet considered who or how to manage any problems that may arise with them now they’re getting on a bit. They live in Melbourne and my little sister and her husband are close to them. I might just pass the buck on that one since there were no parental vows that I recall.

Examinator, what is it; be mean to Foxy day? You boys better step off my home girl.

Dear Examinator,

You think?

Perhaps It's not me...
(Did I just say that out loud?)

Dear Piper,

Thanks!

Actually, examinator is probably right - but then
so is Houellie. I do feel so out of my depth at times -
I tend to see-saw on so many things - nothing for
me is set in concrete - and I'm consistently amazed
at how much I've still got to learn about so many
things. Until I came onto this Forum - I thought
I was pretty cluey - now I'm not so sure - and my
self-esteem and confidence tends to waver (a lot).
All of my life I've been taught - be polite - consider
other people's feelings - do the right thing - well
heck I'm getting to the stage where I simply want to
say -'stuff it - what about me?'

Excuse my rant - I'm now going to go and take a long
hot bath, and relax...

G'Day All,
Foxy your rant will be excused. Someone that writes with the feeling & mostly support for others in the way that you do would have most rants excused. It is a pleasure to read most of your posts.
While your having that bath have a soak for me as I have only a shower in my flat & what I would give for a good soak in a bath.
Last Night I held a hand
A hand so soft & neat
I thought my heart would burst with joy
So madly did it beat

No other hand came to my heart
With such solitude did bring
Than that dear hand I held last night
FOUR ACES & A KING
Thanks All from Dave.

Dear Dave,

Thank You for your supportive words -
and your poem - what a great way to start
the day!

A kind word doesn't cost much - but oh my -
it can do a lot of good.
Reminds me of an Irish toast at a wedding:

"May you have warm words on a cold evening,
A full moon on a dark night,
And the road downhill all the way to your door."

G'Day All,
Thanks Foxy, Your right about a kind word I just hope you had that extra soak in the bath for me.This no bath tubs in flats is a bit rough & the thing is with my bulk in a bath tub there would be less water used in this dry weather.
Have a great day from Dave

G'Day All,
I will always reckon my ex is the greatest driver she can drive any man up a wall & secondly she was a great cook she could serve up a good meal of hot tongue & cold shoulder
Thanks from Dave

Foxy, TPP
It was a old man ironic hen pecked married joke!

about being constantly being told how inadequate he is. hence the ;-)
Like the family joke of referring to mum and now I joke about my wife as "the bomb thrower" to people who don't know her but know me well. both barely 1.5 mtrs

My dad when he first went to PNG stayed in the singles quarters for 12 months. (shortage of available houses in Port Moresby then). As we were about to join him he spread the word about "the bomb thrower" and how she was going to sort out these wayward men and other terrible stories. One such fabricated story was how he lost to the first joint of his left hand index finger...he said she bit it off in a fight...(it was actually while as a boy he was cleaning the chain of a bike and his little sister turned the pedal.

We arrived in a DC4, there was a crowd 30 or so of these fellas waiting to see this vicious monster woman....out stepped 1.49 mtr 30 something kg mum and (cute as a button)4.5 year old me(I know, what happened?).

The group were stunned they expected maybe a 1.9 mtre 100kg staff sergeant type. He never actually said, he let them imagine, he was an outrageous kidder at times perish the though I may have picked up some of his warped humour... and passed it on.

Dear Examinator,

Loved your story - Thanks.

And, no, you don't have a warped sense of
humour - or if you do - then I must be warped as
well.

Dear Dave,

I've used up all of my posts in the 'Faking it,'
thread, so I'll digress a moment here - and
hope that Piper won't mind - and answer you
now.

You wrote that I'm for women's rights but that I
don't appear to be a strong feminist - that I'm
not 'anti-men.' Most genuine feminists aren't
anti-men. Feminism was about giving women
'choices,' as I understand it. In any case
I don't like putting people into
'pigeon holes,' or 'labelling,' them.
Feminism means different things to different
people (just like happiness does).
As the old joke tell us:

"Men only call themselves 'feminists' in the hope
of getting a more intelligent root."

Seriously though, I'm of the generation that
doesn't assign 'roles,' to each other. All
possible options are open and equally acceptable
to both sexes. To us it's a person's individual human
qualities, rather than his or her biological sex,
that is the primary measure of that person's worth and
achievement.

All The Best...

Foxy,
That is just plain sick "an intelligent root" I didn't think a bloke was interested in intelligence when it came to that, actually it would probably be easier without the intelligence.
Jokes aside I still say you are not a radical that is after male domination like a lot out there.
Anyway may your Lord shine on you & your family well from Dave

Your dad sounds cool Exam. It is a funny thing that we do aye – this physical impression we have of people.

That’s the funniest thing about the internet – or back when I had my little site we’d often meet, have big regular gatherings. A Friday night at the local would kick off a whole new strain of discussions.

Now you’d talk to someone in public and sort of have an image of them and then meeting them we were so often completely wrong with the visuals.

Extremely intelligent people who I thought were mature and thoughtful with amazing minds and they’d turn out to be the 16 year old dude with multi coloured hair.

Or the user who couldn’t spell anything right and said bizarre stuff and you kept telling to bugger off and not get cheeky and he’s the suit wearing owner of some big company.

Met one 12 year old boy who was a wiz with computers and we ended up best friends even with him being about 12 years younger and my other best is friend is 20 years older than me. She would of course consider it very immature of me to refer to her as “best friend”. I suspect when I reach her age I wouldn’t have gained equal maturity.

Oh Foxy I am hurt and upset you would de-rail my thread, I feel personally violated and deeply saddened that you would do this to me in such a callous and coldhearted way without thought or reflection of how this may make me suffer right through to the core of my being. Ah I crack myself up.

I’m interested; I don’t understand what feminism is.

“... I'm of the generation that doesn't assign 'roles,' to each other.”

What generation is that? One 37 generations in to the future and you have wizzed back to say hello?

Okay I’m going to bed now cause a bit of strain is starting to show and I don’t want to have to wake up and apologise to too many people in the morning.

Dear Piper,

I hope that you're feeling a bit better this morning.
If not - just re-read some of our posts on the
'faking it,' thread and see how highly you're
regarded on OLO.

We care about you - and want to see your cheerful
self back again.

You asked me what generation I was referring to
when I said that I'm of the generation that
doesn't assign 'roles,' to men and women.

All I meant by that was that I grew up with a
different way of looking at things then my
mother's generation did or the generation
of women before her. More options are open to
us - and it's possible to explore a wider variety
of roles.

Anyway, must run - you take care and have a nice day.

Thinking of you.

Foxy:“All I meant by that was that I grew up with a
different way of looking at things then my
mother's generation did or the generation
of women before her. More options are open to
us - and it's possible to explore a wider variety
of roles.

Anyway, must run - you take care and have a nice day.”

Thank you Foxy, I hope your day goes well too. I wish everyone felt the way you do about pigeon holing people – I’m just reacting to home life where the department treats all foster parents like our opinions or experience can never equate to what they believe should be put in place within our homes. I have been jammed in to their perception of caregivers as a group and finding it an impossible attitude to change.

I think that is the old feminist view – any stay at home mum is letting the side down and too stupid to be listened to. And yeah I had enough going on without additional e-mail problems.

But I should snap out of it, lovely day here, kids are buzzing around and all happy, healthy. Might go play with my sky ball.[smile]

G'Day all,
It is good to see that all seem a little more at ease this morning.
People want to start to see that a stay at home mum is the biggest job of all. The "Liberated" woman of today seem to think that the ones who go out & become executives & such are the "real" workers of the women. This is so far from the truth, a stay at home mum is a cook, laundry hand, cleaner, house-maid, nurse, comforter, peace-maker, arbitrator & the list goes on. Instead of society pushing the way it is to try & get these mums out of the home & into their own paid employment lets all stand together & have a total recognition of these women.
To pay professional staff to do the work of a stay at home mum & to have them on stand-by 24/7 would cost a bloody fortune.
I have no problem with femininity it is the opposite of masculinity so is required to be the partner of masculinity to keep the balance. The trouble is that society is trying to convince women that they are equal to men & push this message so that the women are becoming more like the men hence the conflicts will only grow because masculinity will not put up with itself. Music soothes the savage beast so to does a female soothe a savage man lets put a stop to unisex because it will only lead to further problems.
Thanks again for your time lets support the stay at home mums. Dave

Hello Dave, my job as mum with my own two was so easy compared to the influx of caseworkers I have now. Today, due to another strange fostering situation, I was honored with what the care and protection unit call a “spot check”. Bugger me they just show up out of the blue and then warn me they could come any day, any time in the future.

Like I need that! They arrive and stay for over an hour right when I want to be cooking dinner. I have another three years of this, like it or not. I have to watch other kids in my care while I sit down and concentrate on them and what they have to tell me. I was right in the middle of bathing a kid and the others were waiting for me because I’d said I’d go play ball with them.

You know why – housewives can just alter their schedules, not on the clock etc. Not as important as the working chicks.

Oh bloody hell...

G'Day All,
The Pied Piper, "Oh Bloody Hell" I thought that was the general jist that I was "politely" trying to point out. What do you mean "WHEN" you were a mum?, Your a carer so your role as mum hasn't ceased,
People have to recognise the importance of "the stay at home mums" & the role they play in the lives, of not only their immediate families but for all of society in general.
The way society, (to me anyway) appears to be heading is that we will have all these child care centers & mums as we Knew them will near cease & it will be a unisex world with both male & female in the work force, at both ends of the work from the lighter areas to the full physical.
We had a society that evovled around the stay at home mums & if we have a little think that is ahand me down from primitive man & mans evolution when the mother raised the children & dads & the young men when hunting etc.
With the on set of modern ideas & the inventions & man coming together in larger & larger groups dads & the young men no longer hunted they went to work to get credits or currency to buy those things. While man in his "infinite" wisdom was planning all this for the "modern" world the role of the SAHM's never really changed it just got bigger without much recognition.
Then along come all these "rights" & 'man'ipulative(smile all) groups who worked out that the way these "rights" worked whoever made the biggest noise were the ones the polititions would listen to, hence all the stupid quick fix laws we have today.
The SAHM's wanted recognition & protection through all this so marriage was woven into society to give the women sum fall back if the man up & left the woman that chose to bear his children & then be a SAHM.
Getting a bit long thanks. Dave.

Marriage these days does not mean anything, Women have to much freedom and money. Not even kids can stand in the way of divorce.
I am having a long marriage, then again my wife has never worked during our married life. Catholics must be the worst people in the world, with all the rules they break. I am glad i don't have a religion to answer to.
After a few years the money problems creep in, this is with 2 people working. Instead of putting all this money to good use, they continue to live above their means, and of course the enevitable happens. The kids are the ones to suffer, for their parents greed.

Desmond, just listen carefully… no don’t look over there, Fractelle has just begun to sneer so we don’t have long, she will tear you a new orifice… see the cute chick leaning against the wall looking oh so casual, that’s Foxy and if she spots your graffiti on OLO’s wall she’ll take you down in a heartbeat… just act casual dude and follow me, keep your head down and prey Runner doesn’t notice us…hold my hand Desmond and when I say “GO!” we’re gonna run like hell for the door, I’m going to try and block Pelican and SJF but I can’t make any promises, if you’re lucky Houel will help and Anti may run some interference if he’s in the mood but CJ is likely to foot trip the bugger. If I can get you out the door Graham will stop them following.

Ready? GO!