At the risk of wandering into rugby League bashing territory, 'new evidence' has come to light in the Greg Inglis case.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/leaquehq/girlfriend-puts-new-slant-on-inglis-row/2009/08/13/1249756400913.html

'The signed statement ... is understood to refer to Inglis trying to disarm Ms Robinson while she was in the process of self-harm.'

Of course, that could be some very useful PR spin, but I want to use it for a different discussion.

Having been in that situation myself, I know how hard it can be. With the latest government funded 'To Violence against women, Australia says no', we've missed a trick.

Maybe some are happy with men taking responsibility for all domestic disputes because they are more likely to be more physically powerful, but I think the campaign and assumptions are unfair on a lot of men.

Any man who's had a drunk, abusive, violent female partner to deal with knows it's no picnic. Couples have problems, sometimes they try to fight through them to better times. But when we have Zero Tolerance for one partner, and no responsibility for the (admittedly often physically weaker) other it does nothing but hinder this process.

Men are given sole responsibility for all domestic disputes due to the expectation they are physically stronger. But they are human. They aren't counsellors, they aren't saints ready to cop a beating and stay cool and calm and protect themselves from injury while not using too much force, while still protecting a hysterical partner threatening self harm.

Walk away you say!

Tell i'm he's dreamin'. This is someone you love, who will attack you if you stay, and threaten to top themselves if you leave. No matter how physically powerful you are assumed to be, you can feel bloody helpless in this position.

Get some help you say!

How confident would you feel turning up to any government sponsored domestic violence initiative after those adverts?

People deplore any woman 'standing by their man', but what if it's been the man standing by his woman for so long that has caused this mess?

H,
Ting! "no sale"
In truth there were/are several options open to him that don't involve the government or their agencies. Half a brain and a telephone book would have told him that.

At some point we must all face up to our issues instead of finding excuses not to ....it's called being an adult.

Neither am I sitting here with a rope making a noose singing 'hang down your head Greg Inglis' with references to wide Oak trees.

We simply don't know enough and therefore specific speculation is pointless.

And you aren't interested in 'theoretical conversation' I wonder what is your point/motive/objective.

I suspect it's the usual "poor male bugger me"

Houellebecq, how about one of your excellent summaries of the discussion to follow? We've played this one so often it should be an easy task.

I agree with most of what you have written (altough I'd be cautious about reading too much into what's known of the Inglis case yet. It's ugly that incidents like that go so public without evidence being considered and if the surmising is true then it's far better if some healing and help can go on away from the public spotlight. Difficult after the initial allegations have been all over the media.

Some here, both women and men have suffered very personally in DV situations, it's almost always a very emotive issue. I do recall one discussion (but I can't think which) where we seemed to get past the worst of the gender war stuff and started listening talking.

At the serious harm end of DV women do suffer greater physical injury. I've not had to live with the constant fear of serious harm as a result of a stronger partner but I accept that as an issue male victims don't generally have to face. I had periods of concern that a weapon might be used but not the day in day out fear that many women report facing. My fears were about the harm done to mine and my son's life if I left, about trying to find a way to change the situation and failing.

I hope that you are not just prodding at the carcase out of curiosity, trying to stir things up.

R0bert

Houel these rock and hard place situations are just life. Sometimes we remain trapped with no easy solution. Especially if we believe that without our sacrifice others will suffer, even if it means the suffering of the person harming you.

I’ve had male and female friends who I knew were being beaten up and now and again I got to witness it. Help scares them; they could lose their kids if they speak out. Every time was the last time.

They’re broken, it is near impossible to convince them they or the partner they chose needs fixing.

I would prefer a more non gender specific approach to any advertising campaign.

If a man wasn’t inclined to seek help before then he wasn’t going to anyway.

Haha examinator,

So inconsistent.

'It is too easy to use the 'caveat emptor' stance and then condemn...holus bolus. On one hand Throw a handful of money then on the other criticise without being prepared their NEEDS. (the same flawed principal is applied to our indigenous peoples).'

pontificator.

'We are all culpable for the mess and scapegoating it to the least powerful...'

pontificator.

So which is it? Should people just be responsible for themselves, or should we rely on the government to put nice little adverts like 'To Violence against Women. Australia says NO'?

And then when men are violent, in the pontificators mind, away goes those earlier notions of caring for those poor souls who are in a bad place, in need of help rather than the judgemental eye. Oh such a rubbery man you are!

'Is it sneering to acknowledge that not all people have the same knowledge experience which can (not exclusively) be as a result of conditions and lack of opportunity out of their control.'

pontificator.

Sneering at these men and watering the argument down to something simple these brutes can understand ('Australia says no') as you go.

It might be trite in your mind but unless we aim higher we are doomed to repeat the past...which is what these men are probably doing. Better to treat a complex problem with simple slogans isn't it? Aye? (Sorry I couldn't fit in a reference to humanity being poo)

robert,

This stuff is just for you man. It will help you patch up with SJF too.

TPP, "would prefer a more non gender specific approach to any advertising campaign."

I second that, it was unacceptable stereotyping for a political agenda.

H
CONTEXT

read it again this time properly
OH yes you could respond to the post in THIS TOPIC

The burning question in my mind is why the NRL and Melbourne Storm have waited so long to publicise this version of events. They must be aware of these claims and the damage that this scandal has done to their reputation.
Perhaps they wanted their critics to push the "she's the victim, he's the villan" story, so these critics would end up looking foolish. Perhaps people had genuine concerns about Sally. Perhaps the story is garbage. Very interesting.

G'Day All,
The situation with domestic violence is exactly that. For a start Domestic Violence Laws are worded to the degree that even an argument is D.V. well the term violence is wrong in that format as violence is not reached if there is no physical force as violence is the product of physical force.
I tried my gut to keep a marriage together for the sake of my son who wanted both parents.
That meant putting up with the continued affairs of my wife,the drug & alcohol abuse,the continued denigration of myself,the abuse of my son (both physical & psychological) over a period of 91/2 years screamed at my ex to get the hell out of my sight for six months & all the time my ex knowing my past & why I couldn't take anymore of her stupid games.
This then falls all back on me the male. If you keep prodding a brown snake it will eventually strike then whose fault is it if you get bit (the poor old snake? I doubt it as they are protected).
With rights come responsibilities these rights do not give a person the right to denigrate,ignore the child so they can have a good time etc.
I thank you for your time & may your Lord shine on you all well.From Dave

Oh pompositator,

Slowly, and gracefully you move around the weight of the evidence
Forever side-stepping your own shadow
knowing, only what you want to know.

benk,

'why the NRL and Melbourne Storm have waited so long to publicise this version of events.'

It takes that long for the PR people to sit around and come up with that angle (Lot's of coke to be got through), convince the missus it's the only way or that she'll end up with more money this way, or that her life will involve a few less lenses in her face and a few lucrative New Idea articles where she can spew her soul forth.

'Perhaps people had genuine concerns about Sally.
Oh I'd love to believe that! Even better that Greg is further standing by his woman, and was ready to take all the heat, because he just loves her and wants her to get better. His shoulders are broad, and what's his career compared to the love of his life?

'push the "she's the victim, he's the villan" story, '
I wasn't aware any other story existed. That is the only story! 'To violence against women, Australia says NO!'. What more could there possibly be to it? You need re-educating I think.

Come on people! quick quick! We must identify the villain and the victim pronto.

Piper,

'They’re broken, it is near impossible to convince them they or the partner they chose needs fixing.'

Exactly. Hey when you have kids and they fight, do you just tell the older/larger one they are always in the wrong, that they are basically just prone to this kind of evilness, and that you have zero tolerance and will lock up the more powerful in any fights?

If so how does the less powerful one respond to this? Are they more likely to just taunt and tease the older ones to get them in trouble?

When they do, do they sometimes feel bad when the older one gets a thrashing, or they get moved to another home and they never see them again?

Hmm… Benk it’s like the complete opposite of what Anti would query. Why would they let it go this long and make this man look so bad or did the story get boring so now the other side gets heard. The media seems to have this kind of rhythm to it aye. Like a little shot of adrenalin into a dying patient.

Dave as the only functioning parent in your relationship you did what you thought was right and tolerated things above and beyond for this child of yours. Many of us fall in to a trap willingly to protect a child and so many of us loose. You took your child’s wants and upheld them and so often our children don’t understand what is good for them and we often don’t want to cause them any necessary pain on the way towards what would be better.

You did your best at the time (as many of us do) and now I hope things improve.

It’s tricky aye Houel, sometimes a word started it and the person who said the word is just as guilty as the one who retaliated in a physical way. Problem is always seeing the lead up and not just the climax.

Back at home, amazing how patient one child can be and then snap at the wrong moment – with the wrong witness. I know it looked bad and I understand how husband just saw what looked like some really nasty behavior but hey seriously tell the other little one off that has been stealing their new toy all day and has been told 20 times to give it back.

I’ve had one violent kid moved from my home, repeated vicious attacks on smaller children. Now I don’t know but I’d say that one came from a home where violence was common but they probably hadn’t yet picked up on what instigated it and just acted out the culmination.

'If you keep prodding a brown snake it will eventually strike then whose fault is it if you get bit (the poor old snake? I doubt it as they are protected).'

Hey if anything men are the snakes (oh for so many reasons!) and women are the protected species. Lots of snakes bite and kill, but lots of snakes get hit over the head with a shovel purely because they are a snake. Some people, including women, eat snakes for breakfast too. Actually I'm not sure about breakfast. But dinner for sure!

Where is this leading... well I'm glad you asked! I have no idea, but it's a great analogy, even if purely for the imagery of men being snakes and phallic symbols and women eating them.

Piper,

'sometimes a word started it and the person who said the word is just as guilty as the one who retaliated in a physical way. Problem is always seeing the lead up and not just the climax.'

That's all I'm saying man. I mean I hate the hippies as much as any sane person, but they were onto something when they used the word holistic all the time. I know it got irritating and more than mildly pretentious and grating, but it had some merit.

It needn't cost jobs either! You could just as easily employ a bunch of 'communication facilitators' or some such crap as a bunch of 'all men are evil abusers lets shout it to the world' mob!

People can bang on all they like about zero tolerance, 'under no circumstances' to hit a woman, but to me you're expecting many a guy to sit there while being slapped in the face and spat on to say 'Oooh. Pleeease don't do that. '

'What did you say! Are you raising your voice! That's abuse you know. Domestic violence!'

'Ok love. I am shamed, I will walk away form this conflict'.

'How dare you. You coward! I need you. You're supposed to protect me from myself! Oh go on, walk away, that's the easy route! Another deadbeat dad!'

Houel I do believe you’re having some sort of OL breakdown. C’mon honeys go pour yourself a large one.

Problem always is the there is no funding to approach anyone or their situations as individuals with individual needs. Actually that might be a load of horsesiht, maybe there is funding but it all seems too hard.

How humans who are so diverse can have themselves be named a “type”. Nothing is ever simple with any department or organization when their product is humans. It leaves me amazed and often angry that they think “policy” is an answer to anything or any individual’s individual situation. The flexibility is absent, which has caused me to rethink an important point; go pour yourself a flexible one based on your individual requirements right now – I’m just guessing a large one would be better.

I still have got to take it back to Examinator and his “one size fits no one” statement. Could probably expand it a bit more now to one size fits someone but policy says all ones are the same ones.

G'Day All,
Thanks TPP, The problem is D.V but if we only treat the problem then the problem will remain. If we are to fix the problem then we have to fix the cause. The cause of the problem is the granting of all these rights without the education of the responsibilities that go with all these rights.
If women want to be treated with respect & decency then they must behave respectfully & decently.
If women want to challenge a man at the hieght of a heated argument & behave as a man then a man will meet that challenge as if it is another man.
The cause of all this is this idea that man is the only one that is responsible for D,V & any thing said different is treated with contempt one only has to look at the public out cry when the NSW Police issued the statistic that 35% of D.V is caused by the female. Thanks Again from Dave.

Pied Piper I'd hate words being treated as the equivalent of physical violence. Words do hurt, when coming from a loved one sometimes more deeply than physical blows but in terms of conflict they are different things. Some use the excuse of hurt feelings as justification to instigate physical violence. It's difficult to have that discussion without tripping over all sorts of agenda's, personal hurts and different understandings.

Dave "If women want to be treated with respect & decency then they must behave respectfully & decently." no more so than men and many men don't get that stuff right either.

R0bert

G'Day All,
Houelle, You shouldn't be saying that a lot of snakes get hit on the head as these poor little things are protected & to hurt one is a criminal offence.
The whole point is that women cannot expedt men to lie down while thier rights are challenged. This is no better than the verbal bullying that everyone is up in arms about with the kids at the moment so I wonder where the kids get this idea that one can belittle another without any recall.
Thanks again from Dave.

Stand by Your Man?

The girlfriend of Greg Inglis
is doing just that by changing her testimony -
to protect him, as many partners in an intimate
relationship have done in the past - and will
undoubtedly continue to do - in the future.
Tension over gender roles however, is only
one aspect of conflict in a close relationship.

Surveys suggest that each year
large numbers of couples go through a violent
episode in which one partner tries to cause
the other serious pain or injury. Women assault
their partners as often as men assault their
partners, and both are equally likely to kill
each other.

The police detest "disturbance calls,"
because of the vicious and dangerous nature of so
many of these conflicts.

The sources of violence may lie in the dynamics of the
relationship - as an intimate environment. Close relationships
are likely to involve more conflict than less intimate
ones, since there are more occasions for tension to
arise and more likelihood that deep emotions will be
provoked. Then again, sources may also lie outside the family -
as violence is frequently a response to frustration.

If a person can't strike back at the source of the
problem (lack of a job,an arrogant employer,drug problem,
gambling problem, alcoholism et cetera), the
aggression may be directed towards a partner.

In any event, the extent of violence among people who
are supposed to love and care for one another
isn't easily explained, and suggests that modern
relationships may sometimes be under greater pressures than
they can easily bear.

Foxy lovely post but I do disagree with one point "both are equally likely to kill each other.". What I've read on the topic shows that there is a serious gender difference at the extreme end of the scale, women suffer more serious injury and are killed more often by a partner or former partner than men.

I think that there are a bunch of reasons for that, some men are strong and absolute bastards. For others it's a consequence of greater strength and an out of control situation, it's a lack of access to or knowledge of support services, it's maternal bias in the old family law system creating a loss of access to kids combined with crippling property settlements and CSA payments leading to despair. There will be other reasons less obvious.

R0bert

cont'd...

We all make mistakes in life - and the choice
of a partner can often be a 'biggie.'
To 'Stand by Your Man,' (or woman - as the case
may be) is not always possible -
especially if you're being abused.

"Melinda was mine,
till the time
That I found her
Holding Jim
Loving him.

Then Sue came along
Loved me strong
That's what I thought
Me and Sue
But that died too.

Don't know that I will
But until I can find me
A girl who'll stay
And won't play games behind me,
I'll be what I am
A solitary man
Solitary man..."
--- Neil Diamond.

Dear Robert,

Thank You for your kind words.

The reason I wrote that "they're equally likely
to kill each other" was that although women are
rarely a match with men in a fistfight, they're
more likely to use lethal weapons (notably
kitchen knives).

All rather sad really - when research of the
past two decades has revealed an astonishing
amount of family violence - between spouses,
between parents and offspring, and among the
offspring themselves.

Is the violation between pairs part of our ID as humans or part of our culture and civilization?
Is it any glue that keeps pairs together for long time without any kind of abuses? What is love? What is respect? what is the role of the sex? What other kind of glues can keep the pairs together?
How can we improve all the factors wich play a positive role keeping the pair closer without abuses and violations?

What breaks the relations between pairs, physical abuser always is the strongest one the man!
What is the relation between family problems, divorse, (the worst stage of pair's relations) and their financial problems?
What is the relation between family problems, divorse and unemployment?
What is the relation between family problems, divorse and low income?
What is the relation between family problems, divorse and unskilled persons?
What is the relation between family problems, divorse between people of diferent religious, cultures or national background?
What is the relation between family problems, divorse with low income men and high income women?
What is the relation between family problems, divorse with high educated women and low educated men? etc.
I am sure if we study some basic parametres we will find
1. most family problems caused of cause economic problems.
2. Many because men can not accept that their woman can have higher status,( professional, education, economic etc) from them as in our society men "should" have higher status!
3. Different cultures, interests, hobies, etc.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Antonios "physical abuser always is the strongest one the man"

That's simply not true. If one party is unwilling or otherwise constrained from returning in kind then strength has little to do with it. One person may be gentler, have different values, more self control or perhaps just less coordinated, to always lay the blame at the feet of the stronger is a great injustice to many.

If I was to point out that women tend to have better language (and perhaps emotional) skills than men so therfore all vebal abuse/emotional was committed by women I'm guessing that you would see the problem, why does physical strength get treated so differently.

R0bert

R0bert
I wrote ONLY for physical abuser Physical abuse is the use of physical force against someone in a way that injures or endangers that person. all the other kind of abuses is an other story.
According to International Amnesty USA
One out of every three women worldwide will be physically or sexually abused during her lifetime with rates reaching 70 percent in some countries.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/violence-against-women/international-violence-against-women-act/i-vawa-background-and-resources/page.do?id=1051154

The United Nations defines violence against women as any act of gender-based violence that results in, or is likely to result in, physical, sexual or mental harm or suffering to women, including threats of such acts, coercion or arbitrary deprivation of liberty, whether occurring in public or in private life.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2998&page=4

Declaration on the Elimination of Violence against Women
General Assembly resolution 48/104 of 20 December 1993
http://www.unhchr.ch/huridocda/huridoca.nsf/(Symbol)/A.RES.48.104.En

Domestic Violence and Abuse
Warning Signs and Symptoms of Abusive Relationships
Violent Behavior is an Abuser's Choice
THIS WEBPAGE IS VERY GOOD, READ IT!
http://helpguide.org/mental/domestic_violence_abuse_types_signs_causes_effects.htm

Domestic Violence Dynamics
Common Psychological Traits Often Exhibited by Domestic Abusers
The Driving Psychological Forces of Domestic Abuse
http://abuse.suite101.com/article.cfm/domesic_violence_dynamics

Abuse is not an accident. It does not happen because someone was stressed-out, drinking, or using drugs. Abuse is an intentional act that one person uses in a relationship to control the other. Abusers have learned to abuse so that they can get what they want. The abuse may be physical, sexual, emotional, and psychological.
http://www.domesticviolence.org/who-are-the-abusers/

official rates of nonlethal, intimate violence are highest among women aged sixteen to twenty-four, women in households in the lowest income categories, and women residing in urban areas (Greenfeld). Couples who cohabitate experience more violence than those who are married
http://law.jrank.org/pages/1001/Domestic-Violence-Who-are-abusers-Who-are-victims.html

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

R0bert,
Tragically speaking it isn't always the man who does the violence nor is it always the strongest who is the perpetrator.
I remember one incident where a 11yo boy used to attack his mum with a carving knife. In reality she was stronger bigger but her terror was real as were the cuts.
Likewise I have intervened with a woman who used to bash her 18 old son with a cricket bat even though he was bigger and stronger..
And sadly a case where a man was regularly beaten by his psychotic wife..

Yer I know I needed to get another way to help...I have the scars to prove it.

Why not wait until the evidence is in, all of it?
I am not a fan of the bloke, born not far north of me, in NSW he seems to have cheated the rules to play for QLD.
However he is a great sports man.
I can imagine him hurting his lady not on purpose.
I also can understand him bashing her, it happens too often.
But he is being lynched here, why?
If he was a nobody we would never have heard about him as a result of this episode.
I however want to highlight the growing trend people in the spotlight have.
To much self belief not enough self control.

Belly
We start with individuals to discuss their behavior as the behavior from a wider part of our comunity, as the behavior of a wider group of humans. I try to avoid to speak for specific individuals because I do not know what happened exactly, because I ignore many things and I have many questions about their acts, but we know generaly what happened with the people of similar behavior.
You have are instead to attack a specific person to attack his/her behavior or similar behavior.
We this way we avoid to victimize people while we ignore big parst of the truth about them.
You have right, we are not very fair in our coments and very often we hurt innocent people.
It is better to avoid the names focus on behaviors! The mass media is not a credible information source.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Foxy,

'In any event, the extent of violence among people who
are supposed to love and care for one another
isn't easily explained, and suggests that modern
relationships may sometimes be under greater pressures than
they can easily bear.'

Oh it's easily explained Foxy. All the men are wrong. It's black and white. Didn't you see the adverts?

R0bert,

'"If women want to be treated with respect & decency then they must behave respectfully & decently."
no more so than men and many men don't get that stuff right either.

Yes robert agreed. But there are no adverts telling women how to treat men, but there are adverts the other way around.

Once the government decides to get involved in the private lives of it's citizens, we have the Nanny State, or Government as Parent. Now this parent figure has decided it is taking sides in all domestic disputes, and putting the man up as the one in the wrong, and the woman as a faultless victim. That's just the rules of the game.

Belly,

'Why not wait until the evidence is in, all of it?'
Are you crazy? You obviously don't run a newspaper business.

'But he is being lynched here, why?'
a) He's a rugby League Player. Flavour of the month, and easy continuation of theme the public is really into at the moment.
b) Standard procedure. Find a villain and a victim. Even better if the villain has had a fall from grace.
c) Cross sporting code rivalry.

'I however want to highlight the growing trend people in the spotlight have.
To much self belief not enough self control.'
You obviously read the papers too much and take it all in.

TPP,

'Problem always is the there is no funding to approach anyone or their situations as individuals with individual needs. '
'How humans who are so diverse can have themselves be named a “type”.'

Yeah. It's hard to cater for that minority of the population that are male.

I enjoyed that drink BTW.

Dear Houellebecq,

You write:

"It's easily explained - all men are wrong ...
Didn't you see the ads?"

No. I don't remember the ads - however, according
to the wesite:

MensRights.com.au

Sydney Morning Herald
Jordan Baker Chief Police Reporter
Feb. 23, 2008

"The number of women accused of violence against
partners has risen by almost 25 per cent in five years..."

In Sept 2003 police recorded 4915 attacks by women
on men ... by 2006-07 the numbers had risen to 6056,
according to the Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research.

The same site tells us that in the last five years
there were 32 per cent of cases that reached court of
domestic violence incidents against women and the amount
of cases that reached court involving violence against
men had risen to 56 percent. This is a vast increase -
possibly due to the fact that more and more men are
now reporting the incidents of domestic violence.

Therefore -
it seems that today there is a strong trend towards 'equality'
between partners - both can be equally abusive.
And as to why there aren't any adds about abuse against
males - possibly that could be due to the fact that
males are reluctant to report any abuse, but
it seems things are slowly changing ...

Belly,
My thoughts entirely if we're going to get into specifics.

Foxy,
Dear old H doesn't want facts he's on a mission to balance his chip (on his shoulder). (poor man, bugger me) ...
Love the figures I didn't know they were that high. I did know from experience that DV isn't one sided.
Sadly I see that there is some merit in H's view. E.g. the ever increasing super aggressive almost confrontational arrogance of some women drivers. I remember one case where a woman ignored a dangerous situation a prang followed in which she screamed abuse at an older male who was in the right threw pieces of debris at the man. But when the police arrived she tried took off her jacket to display her figure then acted little girlish to the young policemen taunting the frustrated man.
Unfortunately for her my daughter and I witnessed the case and both gave statements to the police who cautioned her. When the police left she came over to me, my daughter and man and got stuck in(abusive)

While this is one woman, some times it SEEMS an INCREASING NUMBER OF women will drive aggressively, even play chicken to illegally enter a flow then give the bird. (fair's fair)They then claim is that men do it but I ask since when did "two wrongs make a right?"
But hey reminding people of good manners and personal responsibility is pompous to some...and they complain if the shoe is on the other foot i.e. when they are on the receiving end.

R0bert:“… creating a loss of access to kids combined with crippling property settlements and CSA payments leading to despair.”

I thought we were talking about couples in domestic violence situations, that would mean they’re together (and probably shouldn’t be) so where would the CSA come in to it? Now if the woman is in her second relationship according to Retchub the skank is raking it in. Sorry Retchub, can’t help myself.

Should I fess up? I was in a DV situation once for about 40 seconds, between ex and current husbands. In 17 years I have never figured out what made me so angry or why he forgave it or wanted to stay together… we didn’t. I felt it was my fault but I wasn’t Me when with him.

Examinator I think we’ve met all the same people. I had a mum who would beat her boy, who was bigger and stronger, with a vacuum cleaner pipe. He used to come running to me telling me he was going to lose control soon. While telling him just to walk away each time I guess I was hoping he’d just belt her back. He ended up beating his future partners up though, been in prison heaps, leader of a gang now. Maybe he really should have hit his mum way back then?

Many years ago a female friend of my ex got beaten by her new partner, well him and a few boys went round – we just don’t solve problems like we used to. Now I must say, back then I stayed in the car shouting after the boys “what the hell is wrong with her just get her out”. Maybe that was the equivalent of “Mens Business”?

Is there successful help out there for men if they seek it?

Houel – go get yourself another baby.

PP
>"Houel – go get yourself another baby."<

So he can give it complexes if its a girl? That's a rather convoluted way for you to get another foster child isn't it?

;-) he he he ...examinator ant! Go stand in the naughty corner THIS INSTANT!

Awwwww he made me do it! (mutter mutter whinge whinge) :-(

Pied Piper, my understanding is that DV covers post relationship violence as well. I've not looked very far into it but there does seem to be a fair bit of evidence that a significant proportion of the most extreme violence is post relationship.

Antonios I gave you the example of non-physical violence to try to get you think about the logic in claiming that it's always the stronger person's fault. It's often useful to think about an issue in another context to see if the logic still holds, in this case I don't think that the logic is valid.

The analogy is not perfect, perhaps a different one, if two cars are on the road, one more powerful than the other, one is speeding and being driven recklessly, the other is operated within the speed limit and is being driven as saftely as possible. They collide, whose fault is it?

Put aside what external agencies might say and see if the idea that the stronger party is always at fault matches your real world experience.

R0bert

pontificator,

'"two wrongs make a right?"
But hey reminding people of good manners and personal responsibility is pompous to some...and they complain if the shoe is on the other foot i.e. when they are on the receiving end.'

Sadly, you have it ass about face as usual. The right or wrong is neither here nor there.

As I have said many a time, if you want to preach about manners and etiquette, you'd better be bloody polite yourself.

Now I have never complained about anyone's manners or prose or etiquette on OLO, while you have made it your business to act as the OLO police in this regard.

But this hasn't stopped you casting aspersions on people's parenting skills and proposing they are so bad it would lead to their children being fostered out. I think that little outburst says a lot about your real character. I'm happy to have it stand as a shining example of your hypocrisy. As personal attacks go it far outweighs anything that's been dished out by those posters you police.

H,
My comment to PP was a whimsical point. rationally it bore no relation to reality other that to joke about your seeming anti female stances.
The rest is in your mind certainly not mine. Certainly not the playing policeman moral conscience or any other such nonsensical attribute you find necessary to attack me personally..with via name calling etc.
I do not make a practice of attacking individuals per see But I do challenge what they say.

Mind you making a blood sport of conversation does make me bristle. It is you that started with the personalised name calling rather than what is said.

Your The pogo stick in snow approach says nothing about the context and is no way to discuss anything.
I often wonder that someone with the capabilities you express why you don't seem to understand my dilemma (foible ) for what it is. I am between two diametric cultures. One mass i.e. Wasp and the other shaman literal.
Let's agree to disagree ...you don't call me names and I won't make poor jokes.

By all means challenge what I SAY . Contrary to what you seem to think I neither see myself superior or always correct. But like you why lay down if your arguments aren't logical or based on facts?
Pax?

Exterminator ant

R0bert:”Pied Piper, my understanding is that DV covers post relationship violence as well. I've not looked very far into it but there does seem to be a fair bit of evidence that a significant proportion of the most extreme violence is post relationship.”

Fair enough, it’s best to establish who is boss early on aye. Yes I know, I’m in a stupid mood today.

What can I say, the bloody idiots, violence reared its ugly head and they still just carried on. I think often men and women really do believe things will change after some sort of wedding ceremony has been held. Is it an over abundance of faith in humans being basically good?

Exam:“>"Houel – go get yourself another baby."<
So he can give it complexes if its a girl? That's a rather convoluted way for you to get another foster child isn't it?”

Haha... I read that about five times before clicking that I had phrased it all wrong. And you get outta my corner.

Houel, give me that damn drink. It was a joke, this is like watching two men in a pub... Aw that so brings back some wonderful memories... as you were

Dear Examinator,

Here's another take on women drivers:

A LETTER FROM GRANDMA:

I got a letter from my grandma yesterday, she writes ...

"The other day, I visited a local Christian bookshop and
spotted a "honk if you love Jesus," bumper sticker for the car.
I bought the sticker and placed
it on the rear bumper of my car.

Boy, am I glad I did! What an uplifting experience followed.
I was stopped at a red light at a busy intersection.

I found that LOTS of people love Jesus. Why, while I was sitting
there, the fellow behind me started honking like crazy, then he
leaned out of the window and screamed, "For the love of God,
GO!GO!GO!GO! Jesus Christ, GO!" What an exuberant cheerleader he
was for Jesus.

Everyone started honking. I just leant out of the window and waving
and smiling blew kisses to all those lovely people.
I even honked my own horn a few times to share in the love.

I saw a man waving in a funny way with only his middle finger
pointing up to the heavens. When I asked my teenage grandson
in the back seat what that meant, he said it was an old native
good luck sign he'd read about. Well, I leant out of the window
and gave him the good luck sign back. My grandson in the back
seat burst out laughing. Even he was enjoying the religious
experience.

But, just then, I noticed the light had changed to green
for the second time, so I waved to all my sisters
and brothers and drove on through the intersection.

I noticed that mine was the only car that got through the
intersection before the light changed to red again. I felt rather
sad that I had to leave them after all the love we had shared,
so I slowed the car down, leant out of the window and gave them
the native good luck sign with my middle finger one last time
as we drove away!

Praise the Lord for such wonderful people.
Love,
GRAN."

Foxy, great story, LOL! I know of a group of men in a small town in W.A. who call themselves 'Mates'. They are solely for the use of the men dealing with domestic violence.
This group are listed as somewhere for potentially violent or violent men, or their victims, to phone for advice or to ask to be removed from the violent situation without the use of police.
Instead of the women and children being taken out of their home to safe houses to escape the aggression, the man is relocated at a safe house where he will get help for his anger and aggression problems.
Some will eventually be able to move home with their loved ones to try and work their problems out without violence, if all parties agree to try.
Wouldn't this be worth a try everywhere else?

Dear Suze,

It sounds like a great idea.
There is a special connection between men -
as there is between women. I think men would
open up a bit more to other men. And a support
group could definitely help. I know of several
male friends who've been deeply moved listening
to another guy talking about his divorce or
the death of a loved one in a way that they
often wouldn't open up to a woman.

Getting people to talk to each other is a step in
the right direction.

PP
Sometimes I'm just not appreciated ;-(

Foxy
what a great tale ya gotta luv granny.
My mum is a god botherer and a menace on the road. She does the most terrifying things in her 30 yo mazda HoRaS (Heap of Rust and... )
Then says "God is protecting Me"...."that's fine for you" I've gasped in absolute terror but I'm a secular Humanist..."
She says given the way you kiss the ground when we get there...there's hope for you yet"
Gee thanks mum!
Gotta luv grannies

Fortunately this coming Feb she'll be 86 ,her license expires and she says it's time to stop driving besides your beard has gone grey in the last 5 years and I'd hate to think my driving has caused that!'
Very considerate mum....phew.The whole suburb can go back to the roads then. :-)

Pied Piper I know marriage can be really bad but you are just a tad over the top to call the period after the wedding ceremony "post relationship". Maybe at least wait until kids are conceived before the relationship is regarded as over.

Houellebecq, "Now I have never complained about anyone's manners or prose or etiquette on OLO" - you seem to have found the need to take a number of digs at me for using different manners to yours. Maybe you will see that as being something different but don't hold your breath waiting for me to be convinced.

R0bert

robert,

The digs at you are nothing to do with manners. As I have observed, when a gender thread is in full swing, you get really put out if you don't get singled out for special attention from the female posters.

You try desperately for affirmation you're different from the 'misogynist' posters. You just tread so carefully around those chicks. It's like you're terrified someone will put you in the same basket as antiseptic, and if someone says 'CJ isn't like that', it's almost as if you're shouting 'what about me! I'm not like that either! Please say I'm not like that!'.

examinator,

'My comment to PP was a whimsical point.'
How many times has antiseptic made a 'joke' and all hell has broken loose. Double standards much.

'the capabilities you express '
I've never expressed any capabilities. You're the one who sings from the rooftops about what a fantastic altruistic counsellor and volunteer you are, and how other people are all talk no action.

'By all means challenge what I SAY'
'arguments aren't logical or based on facts? '

Facts...

'your seeming anti female stances.'
Where?

robert; 'I agree with most of what you have written'

piper; 'I would prefer a more non gender specific approach to any advertising campaign. '

cornflower; 'I second that, it was unacceptable stereotyping for a political agenda.'

So if I'm anti-female, so are these posters. In fact, you seem to be in the minority.

Foxy;'Stand by Your Man?
The girlfriend of Greg Inglis
is doing just that by changing her testimony'

I spent two paragraphs explaining that she has probably been coerced into doing just that.

'you don't call me names and I won't make poor jokes.'

Oh I'm all for name calling. Bring it on. As I said, I'm happy to let that comment stand. See what you don't seem to be able to grasp is that I can say anything I like. You're the one who has constrained yourself by your constant calls for people to be 'nice'. I'm being consistent, you're being hypocritical.

Foxy, loved the Gran story.

Reminds me of something overheard in a pub.

"When I go, I want to go peacefully in my sleep, like Grandad.

Not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car"

Foxy, Pericles

Hilarious.

Thank you

I'm glad that you all liked the Gran story.
My brother sent it to me ages ago and it still
makes me laugh.

Examinator - my mum's in her eighties - and
she finally gave up her car about a year ago,
I used to say the rosary every time I got into
her car (kidding - but only just)...

Pericles - great joke - Thank You!

Houellie - I'm not sure that she was coerced.
It's not always easy - especially in an abusive
relationship - to simply leave. The tendency
is to still believe that things will get better.
Who knows - she may have been coerced in reporting
him to the police in the first place - or perhaps
this was her way of seeking help ...

Foxy,

'I'm not sure that she was coerced.
It's not always easy - especially in an abusive
relationship - to simply leave. The tendency
is to still believe that things will get better.'

No it's not easy, and it's not always right to leave, especially when you've made a commitment to someone for better or for worse. Things got better for me and I'm sure they have for a lot of marriages over the years (though I never married in the end). People can be weak, have problems that can be fixed etc. It's a matter of patience, how much for how long you'll put up with, and your belief in the person as a whole against their current behaviour. Everyone is different, and I think this one strike and your out is a bit simple minded.

Yes some people never change, wont get help and will remain abusive, but that's not everybody.

With my experience the general passage of time allowed the chick to feel more secure in the relationship, and to trust I wasn't going to treat her the same as the other guys had treated her. That and getting her to lay off the drink and a bit of help in building her self esteem. I sent her off to the world as a better person, as she did me.

See, there's a good news story for ya. It's not all tragically chronic abuser is put up with by abusee until someone gets killed.

I still say the PR people would have gotten their claws in for some damage control in this case. But then I'm eternally more cynical than you Foxy. The truth is contained between Greg and his Missus, but unfortunately this case will be contorted and skewed by the feminists and other barrow pushers and the League's PR damage control men for their own ends.

We're just here to enjoy picking over the carcass.

robert; 'I agree with most of what you have written'
piper; 'I would prefer a more non gender specific approach to any advertising campaign. '
cornflower; 'I second that, it was unacceptable stereotyping for a political agenda.'

Houel:”So if I'm anti-female, so are these posters. In fact, you seem to be in the minority.”

I never thought of it like that. But what we want is the minority acknowledged and helped alongside the majority and that it won’t happen if everyone doesn’t approach domestic violence in a non-gender specific way?

We’re all on the same page yeah? Exam’s seems to be as well? And in this thread we’re talking about some chick whose story has emerged about how her partner was helping not hurting her? We’re wondering what the media is doing and if we believe it?

Without facts and only with “carcass” evidence I don’t believe her, I think it complete kaka. As a female I dislike her kind intensely for it. Society isn’t helped by anyone standing by anyone else if they are guilty.

”You try desperately for affirmation you're different from the 'misogynist' posters. You just tread so carefully around those chicks.”

You so could have been talking about me right there.

“It's like you're terrified someone will put you in the same basket as antiseptic, and if someone says 'CJ isn't like that', it's almost as if you're shouting 'what about me! I'm not like that either! Please say I'm not like that!'.”

Well he’s not, gosh. Anti is in a class of his own while CJ is perfectly likeable. Examinator has a touch of schoolteacher about him while you…you… I so wish you were more predictable.

Quoting that was a nightmare, if I misquoted someone I apolgise.

Houel:“No it's not easy, and it's not always right to leave, especially when you've made a commitment to someone for better or for worse.”

Surely that particular vow is about things around the couple getting better or worse and not a member of the actual couple spazing out?

G'Day All,
When are we all going to stop all the talk & start to do something about the inequality both sides of the fence? If we are all fairdinkum then we would bind together & start to petition the governments to do something about it all.
It is just as easy to write to the governments as it is to post on this forum.
The legal system in this country is becoming a joke & a farce & becoming as inconsistent as the football refs.
Why do people think that for thousands of years there was separation af the sexes & roles for each gender to follow & a purpose for each gender?
If we want violece of all decriptions to stop then we have to first convince our governments to stop their violence against others. We can't have the governments blowing the guts out of women & kids just because another country doesn't agree with our lifestyle & then in our own country make the male gender sole blame of violence.
Thanks again for your time from Dave.

dwd laments that 'We can't have the governments blowing the guts out of women & kids just because another country doesn't agree with our lifestyle & then in our own country make the male gender sole blame of violence.'

Do we really solely blame males for violence in this country Dave?

I am fairly sure the courts take every case of violence on its own merits and then hopefully prosecute the perpetrator, no matter what their gender.

What I really hate is when someone is charged with violence against someone else, and the juries are told to give some leniency because of the poor perpetrators violent upbringing.

Broken faces and bones are just as painful for a victim, no matter what the background of the offender. Let's stand up for the victim instead.

Dear Houellebecq,

Thank you for your last post in which you opened up
a bit more. I appreciate your honesty - and frankly
it moved me so much that I want to give you a hug.

I'm seeing you in a somewhat different light -
and I quite like what I see :)

G'Day All,
Suzeonline, Have a good look at the ads that are currently shown & then tell me that the male is not held responsible for violence.
With regards to the Courts they may be able to make a fair judgement if the defendant is able to get proper defence but if one is only able to get bare mininum representation then it is extremely hard to be defended.
My ex & her family went to their relations at DoCS & made the allegation that I bashed & starved my son just to get custody of my son from me. DoCS then stated in Court that they didn't believe that in the first place but still took my son. Then DoCS state that it is emotional abuse because of 2years of DV but there is no records that support this claim. On the 18-9-97 I am supposed to be in a town 550klms from Sydney when I was in the Attorney-General's library all that day & was in Court the next day after staying in Sydney that night. Then those court records are altered.
The thing is what does a person do when it is finally found out that the partner is the one that is not allowing you to get your son home & every time that you try to contact your son & you are told drop dead you will never see or talk to your son again by your partners father.
It is a bit hard to write the whole story here Suzeonline but do as The Pied Piper did & contact me direct & I will give you my whole story E-mail (graysond49@yahoo.com) Thanks again for your time from Dave.

Suze:”What I really hate is when someone is charged with violence against someone else, and the juries are told to give some leniency because of the poor perpetrators violent upbringing.
Broken faces and bones are just as painful for a victim, no matter what the background of the offender. Let's stand up for the victim instead.”

The juries are instructed to consider both victims not just the one with the most recently broken bones. Isn’t it the courts job to establish also the “why” something happened and don’t people have to take in to account the circumstances around any crime? Isn’t that the difference between things like murder and manslaughter?

Houel gave an example of what could lead up to a person snapping under long term emotional blackmail and this woman (that I don’t believe), if this is a real story, is also an example of where a jury would be instructed to more lenient on the perpetrator?

G'Day All,
I have had to represent myself for 12 years tryimg to get my son home. Every time my wife & I have had representation the first & second visit to the solicitor the solicitor seemed very interested but every time by the Court day the representatives didn't want to upset the applecart.
This continued up to April 2006 then after my wife & I had separated (beginning of 2006) I said that we could co-habit the house we bought to bring (what I thought our son to) but her & her boyfriend were trying to scam the house for themselves. I told my wife that she could have her boyfriend in the room beside me I only wanted our son home but she just kept the rows going over & over.
So who is the victim here the father who has witnessed his son dragged across fences, rushed off in the middle of the night to God knows where then those carers writing that my son cried for his mum & dad until he made himself physically sick & the list goes on.
I made one vital mistake when my wife was assessed as "Histrionic" personality which I thought was of the past as my wife was diagnosed with "Re-active Depression" from childhood trauma at the hands of her mother the very one that has my child.
Anyway thanks again Dave.

Piper,

'Surely that particular vow is about things around the couple getting better or worse and not a member of the actual couple spazing out?'

I think we'll always get on if you keep using phrases like 'spazing out'. That's how I've always interpreted those vows. But what do I know I'm living in sin with bastard children. Or living platonically with divine intervention like her parents think.

As I said it depends on how long and how spastic they get. Or whether they're a normal person acting spastic, or they're just a f$ckn spastic. I reckon things ebb and flow and sometimes your partner takes the piss and sometimes you find yourself taking the piss. The whole point about being a couple is that you've got someone looking out for ya.

Foxy,

Are you suuure? I must be slipping. Actually now I'm a bit uncomfortable about it all.

Suze,

It depends on what you want the courts for. To punish and get revenge, or for the safety of the populace. Oh man, now I'm sounding really leftie.

Dear Houellebecq,

Gotcha!

Hello dwd, I do really feel for your situation, but I wouldn't know the whole story from your ex-wifes perceptive as well, even if I did read your story via email.
You shouldn't tar all of us women with the same feathers either Dave!
We all have past histories to tell.
Mine comes from the position as a child of divorce. My Father treated my mother terribly, and there was a custody battle which he lost.
I still have a great relationship with him now that I am middle-aged.
So don't despair Dave, because when your son is old enough he will make his own mind up about his parents and if you are good to him, he will love you despite all that his mother tells him.
Good luck.

suzeonline, very well said.

Dave I've not been through what you have been through but have been through enough. The bit that Suze says about your child making up their own mind as they get older is something I've seen over and over again. At worst you might miss some very important years of childrens lives now but if you make sure that you are not the problem most will eventually want to find out about you for themselves.

Sometimes even the shorter term stuff turns around quite quickly.

R0bert

G'Day All,
Thanks Suzeonline & RObert. I do know what you are both saying the thing is by the time he would be able to do what he wanted I could be dead.
Suze' I try not to lump everyone in the one basket & I do appreciate individuality it is just that all women are sisters they just live in different houses.
The reason that I am fighting for my son is that I too was removed from my mum & it wasn't a thing that I wanted for my son.
The wedding vows that my wife gave was "I forsake my husband for all others" you have got to laugh or we will all be insane & laughter is a better sound than crying.
Anyway thanks again Suzeonline & RObert & all others as well from Dave.

Dave:”Thanks Suzeonline & RObert. I do know what you are both saying the thing is by the time he would be able to do what he wanted I could be dead.”

Or you could be in a position to do some amazing stuff for your boy and given where he has been placed and how you feel about it he may really really need you more than ever. This lost time and damage due to what has happened now can’t be reversed and hopefully he will come out the other side and learn who he is and who his father is.

There is a lack of information Dave which didn’t allow Suze or R0bert to leave a more informative responses but both seem to be telling you that no matter what has gone before it can still result in a good future, messages about having faith and remaining optimistic?

I’m on their side.[smile]

Dave when you are fighting for you son watch out that the fight does not do more harm than what you are fighting. I got to a point where I had to give into unworkable demands because my son was being harmed by the ongoing conflict. I had to watch further harm to him over the next year while he failed to cope with a variety of problems resulting from the living arrangements. A devistating time but stopping the fight allowed me to start to recover from the turmoil so I was in a better state to pick up the pieces. Since then I've seen a massive turn around in my son. I've had some good help along the way.

If you get to the point where you (or those who care for you) can see that the fight is hurting your son (or you more than is good for you) stop and focus on being ready for when you are needed. I ensured that there was a notation on the consent orders saying just what type of "consent" it was and why I'd accepted them then moved on.

Don't ever let the fight or winning become the goal, your son's welfare is the goal.

R0bert

G'Day All,
RObert, Thanks again.
I am aware of the points that you are making & appreciate you raising them.
My main aims in life now are, to try & first just be able to talk to him, then organise to get him an education before he gets to that stage in young adulthood where he just doesn't give a damn.
My son entered grade 7 doing his reading & spelling from grade 2 & his mathematics from grade 3 so the starting point is to get him interested in getting an education.
Like I have said before it is a bit hard to tell my story as I am limited to what I can say. If you or anyone else wants to contact me direct then do so & I am quite prepared to tell you & it will be unblemished & before you or anyone else asks I will answer your doubt now I am not the perfect angle in this here yarn.
Thanks again to you & all others for allowing me this time & space from Dave.