Hay Malcome baby, you are getting it all wrong. This business of me too policies just won't work mate. Bomber Beasley tried that kick, & look where it got him.

Now we know all this global warming, carbon trading is a crock of you know what, & Kevy & his boys have their poll driven policy, but there's no reason for you to follow them. Unless that is, your dumb enough to believe the rubbish, & in that case please ignore the following.

A bunch of us blokes were standing around the barbeque saturday night, as you do when the hostess has the ladies off admiring the new carpet, [or what ever it was] & we figured out that none of us, or any one we knew, had ever been polled. Perhaps that's why they get stuff so wrong.

This led to KRudd, & then you. We've been a bit worried about what we are hearing. Good move to vote against this carbon trading rubbish, mate. Our quick poll found none of us, or anyone we knew, [well perhaps a couple of the ladies], had, or still did believed in it. How could you, with all the mountains of new evidence showing what a con it is? So what's this about thinking about voting for it the second time around?

If you think such a vote, cynically to save you from a double dissolution election, is a good idea, think again mate. Just of the ten around our barbeque, that sort of lack of ethics, would cost you 8 votes.

We all think this issue is too important, to the future of our counyry to be used in that way. You'd have have more chance of comming back from a football team of members, than you would if you start playing those games.

I'll give you a bit more advice, real cheep, in a later post, but for now, loose any idea fo playing politics with our future.

Fancy that. A semi-literate 1950s throwback and his mates in the back yard reckon they've got climate change and electoral success figured out. Knock me down with a feather.

Turnbull would be better off asking the ladies for some advice when they're finished with the carpet or whatever it was.

Anyone know how to salvage a very wet key-board?

Leave him alone Sancho, his thread has bought me great joy, great memory's, and a great laugh.
Lets not call him big Mal to start with, we had one of them, he was big.
Memory's?
4 months before the last election a group, gee was it you hasbeen? at a construction site in the upper Hunter used the same words.
Very abusively shouting Rudd would never win and that they had never been polled.
I promised to look them up but did not bother, but watch ts space hasbeen, your dead and defeated mob need to be concerned about a thing called reality, voters are not EVER going to put Turnbull in charge.
But we can all learn why if we read your post, far too many conservatives just refuse to let him run a winning team.

I think we should encourage Hasbeen to come out of retirement and offer his services to Turnbull as an advisor. The Labor government could certainly look forward to an easy election or two.

Keep it up, Hasbeen.

People are mocking this little Aussie battler, and almost singing, How the hell would he know, but in reality, unless there is a factor that is not being taken into consideration, the old saying that there is only one poll that matters, is as true today as it was in 2004.

I cannot forget the long faces on my drinking mates faces when the reality dawned that we had Howard for another three years. I was handing out HTV cards to try and delay Malcolm’s entry into Federal Politics, but to no avail, he romped it in, and on the 13th December 2004, Rudd published in the Courier Mail, and OLO published a piece by the current Prime Minister. It is worth a revisit.

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=2879

Belly may bellyache, but the fact KR recognized was that unless a political party stays within the lines of the majority of the constituency, after copping a hiding, in 2004, is probably the main reason we are enjoying a very popular Prime Minister. It was a close call thing I am told, about three votes in it, and Kevin Rudd was not averse to noting that Peter Costello made a pre election appearance at Hillsong Church in Sydney, and many Liberals were mocking the atheist leader of the Australian Labor Party.

Kevin made an appearance by video-link to 200,000 Christians not long before the 2007 election. He was able to sincerely claim he was a Christian, and in a head to head with John Howard impressed everyone. The majority of Australians shifted 23 seats from the Liberals to Labor. What God has given He can take away, and these blokes around a barbecue are just as legitimate as a small jury as any other gathering of the people. Their verdict: Climate Change is a scam. Despite all the media hype still running amok in favor of Climate Change legislation, eight out of ten aren’t buying it.

I can imagine if a few VB’s were being shared the debate was probably robust. Big Mal, was once a name given to a Prime Minister who lost.

So, who you going to vote for?

Not Labor, Not Coalition, Not Greens.

Wait, maybe Steve Fielding and the true believers can lead us out of the wilderness.

Sorry Peter but I am not a believer, funny thing I mostly do not even understand what you are on about.
Mal is hardly a battler, the bloke could buy and sell all of us, he thought he could buy the Prime Minister ship.
Well he and I got that wrong, look under the carpet, past the Krudd rubbish.
As time passes aided by an over inflated self opinion Turnbull has no chance, his party, not Just Wilson Tucky [hasbeen you are not Wilson are you?]
Is undermining him on every issue, that party bases its efforts to return to power on opposition at all costs.
To everything.
Keeping conservatives happy will not do it, refusing to understand the opinion polls , to look away and say its not true will not do it.
Howard left a weak divided mob, they must soon, very soon, remember they must bring middle Australia back not drive them away.
How many do you think will change their mind about Turnbull?
We laughed at Mrs Howard's lessons in tree planting to John, knew she played a roll much bigger in his Prime Minister ship than we once thought but Turnbulls wife?
Aussies are not seeking a royal family to lead us Aussie battler?

“Hay Malcome baby, you are getting it all wrong. This business of me too policies just won't work mate”

Agree with that Hasbeen. So then, what can Turnbull do to get his mob of me-tooists to take up a different approach, which will both win him power and be the right thing for the country?

Bloody simple. Embrace genuine sustainability.

Sell it well and the community will support it.

I’ve said it all bfor on OLO. Not going to repeat myself again.

See my posts on the ‘Election 2010’ thread, starting here: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2957#67986

mal is in one of those wierd dreams..he really wants the carbon tax..[for his former employers..to trade carbon credits]...

but must be seen to be against it..to get elected...we could do far worse..than to go to the electorate on global warming alone..opposing it is the only hope the libs have to get back in...this is a new tax mate...how hard is that to sell

the facts havnt been discussed...no one really knows how govt gets to greate these credits...but your banking mates know what to do with the carbon credit bonds govt must give to big busoness for mainly foreign multinationasls to do business as usual

dont be sold[fooled ] wuith the green jobs scam either...go check out spain's un-em-ploy-meant rate mate...the only jobs are putting up the damm imported towers...then the multinationals reap the wind harvest for free...the only jobs are wipping clean the blades from the dead wildlife...or cleaning the dust from the passive solar collectors

see we are getting a new tax on everything...that our power cost will go through the roof...and its an excuse to hate others..not paying as much as you..to save big business

but you r the golden child bro..[you know your better than the rest of us...but mate you jumped in too early...it should have been that you did a hawkie[when a win was inevitable..

.but mate we see..your doing the hard yards...unlike krudd who got an easy run..thanks to us..mugs feeding him policy...that somehow he has managed to stuff up delivering....mate you cant lose...a few more points here[and there]...

and the unthinking party faithfull..and good old kevi...loses the unloosable election...if a double disolution..well more fool him..for believing that bad penney wrong...

selling us global cooling..[global warming..lol cli-mate-change...the change..big business could get us to believe/fear in.. enough to give business the credit..it needs to rebuild their business as usual...big bonus all round...except the dumd worker drones paying ever more tax..as they earn ever less

I suppose I try to advance logical arguments, but Belly thinks I am bellicose. He says he is not a believer, but Shrek was not a believer until love came into his life. I don’t actually believe that Belly is not a believer, its just that he does nor understand what I believe in, but I bet he understands what he believes in, and in that respect is a believer too.

It has been a life long passion of mine to debate. I have debated in pubs, clubs, big meetings and little meetings, in Magistrates Courts and even once in the High Court, when I told the useless son of a beech that he was not the High Court because he did not have three heads. Section 71 Constitution is supposed to be a guarantee of at least three Judges on the High Court, a Chief Justice and two others, and this creep was not the Chief Justice.

There has only been one other occasion when a Labor Government did not get a second term. That was in 1931. James Scullin was a Ruddesque figure, who two days after he was elected faced the Wall Street Crash. He lost his brilliant treasurer Red Ted Theodore, because of allegations of corruption connected with the State Copper Smelter at Mungana, in far North Queensland, and it was common knowledge in FNQ that the Hotel on the Esplanade, owned by Theodore had been built with government building materials, consigned to Chillagoe, and sent back to Cairns.

If Kevin Rudd does not address State Labor Corruption, it is just possible that because there is no State election before he must go again, the State corruption albatross could drag the Federal mariner down. I happen to think KR knows this, and his appointment of O’Connor as Home Affairs Minister, marks the start of a new era.

I think we ought to remember that Keating beat Hewson, because Hewson wanted to introduce a GST. New taxes are unpopular, and only two people in a hundred must change their mind before the government changes again

I'm waiting for Col....

Oh, I cant wait. Socialism by Stealth!

I love Big Mal, and I'm usually a Labor voter. He's a guy who has actually done a lot of stuff. Kevin on the other hand looks like he's talked about all sorts of stuff, in steering committees, task forces, summits, round tables, focus groups, green papers and white papers.

Actually I'd even prefer Kevins wife.

I'm afraid I just doze off whenever Kevin starts talking. And let me just say this.. I feel tired... I feal weary.... I feel fatigued.

sadly "Big" Mal is just another pathetic self serving polie. Whose knee jerk self interest got him into trouble of his own making.

But the really sad thing is that most Aussies can't see that the ship of state is like all large modern ships once going their momentum renders the captain a figure head like 'save the Koalas' is just a touch stone for those who like 11 century peasants needed quasi religious icons to give their pathetic lives 'substance'(sic).

We Aussies plebs are so self possessed we have no idea how it's run and providing the 5 star pandering to our egos/prejudices we pay little attention to its operation and even less reasoned thought to resultant journey. Happy to live our lives in ignorance of 'important peoples business' so long as we can enjoy the "cake and wine" narcotic cloud of consumerism.

Occasionally we might stir to utter meaningless political meaningless slogans like 'socialism by stealth' and 'we need more motivation' then retreat again to our troglodytic world bellow decks. All to rejoin the internecine competition for a higher, bigger cabin on the ship of the damned or rather irrelevance. Happy in our delusional part in Plato's Cave.

Not realizing that 'the best ship in the world (sic)' another meaningless term, (lacking real maintenance) is rotting away under our very feet and sooner or later time and the sea of indifference will swallow us and our wonderful creation ....but by then who cares? Big Mal? hardly, Some other political neophyte.

Thank you Sir Humphrey.

Get some help! That whole post is barely comprehensible.

BTW: You don't speak for all 'Aussies'. How Arrogant.

We are arrogant aren't we. I'm sure that is your reality, but why you feel so superior to project it onto everyone else confuses me. Ah, I get it, you're not really talking about yourself, you're talking of those people 'beneath' you, the 'blind' ones who aren't as enlightened as yourself, and using 'we' so you don't get stoned in the process.

PTB Theador is a hero of mine, I have read about him and am not buying the bad man storys about him.
However this thread has bought great laughter and enjoyment to me.
big Mal? think was the bloke who lost his trousers surely not the ego driven gentleman now in the death seat?
Like you however Peter I like a round OR two of verbal tennis, have debated inmost forums best after a few beers in the pub but hopefully with people fully aware Turnbull is never going to lead except over lemming hill into a black hole.

Well Mal, you've really blown it now mate. If only you'd waited long enough to read this thread.

Juat a little read would have shown you that, you could learn mandarin, introduce carbon trading, & even train a lock of blow dried hair to fall fetchingly across your forehead, & this lot won't vote for you.

WE all know that Kevvy's carbon trading is his down payment on his UN job, [the one he hopes for] but even with this, he could, & probably will, throw out of work, all Ozies who don't speak mandarin, & work for the pubic service, & they would still vote for him.

So Mal, now you have thrown out us semi-literate throwbacks, who were desperately hanging on, hoping you might come good, who do you have left? I'm afraid it's all over mate. Get over it, & get out, now, with the little dignity you have left. I'm afraid my first guess was right. You do believe in global warming. You are just too thick for the job.

Why is it that acadenics, journalists, & finance industry types are the easiest to con? They all fell for the Y2K one, hook line & sinker, too

No Belly, I was right with the "Big" bit. This Mal is every bit as thick as the first, & mate, if they have to have lying policies to get in, I'd rather they didn't.

Q&A, you got that right. We don't even have Pauline. Where do you find a goos woman, when you want one. There is Barnaby, & perhaps Noel Pearson could come & help, & who was that Qld National Bill O Chee, or something like that. He always talked sense. But then, so did Beattie, before he made premier, & look what he turned into.

Mal, mate, you can't believe the trouble you're in.

Even the true believers - the ones who swallow Liberal propaganda like it's Crown Lager - are posting tiresome, schoolboy-ish threads about your leadership.

And let's be clear, Mal: you're being criticised by fully-grown men who think "lose" means the same thing as "loose", and who still believe boring, predictable sarcasm is smart and sophisticated. That's your core voting demographic!

Honestly, mate, you've got to slap a woman down on public television for talking back, or shoot an immigrant for not being Christian. Anything to prove your credentials as a reliable conservative.

Seriously, Bully. Most of us Liberals out here don't have the slightest clue about policy or foresight. Giving us false hope based on nonsense should be easy. Just open the John Howard cookbook!

Cheeses cripes! Most of us refuse to even realise that the last government drove the econonomy into a ditch! It can't be that hard to bolster our confidence by feeding us some irrational populist swill.

We're dying out here, Mal. We're so mired in denial and ignorance that we're assuring each other that Rudd's popularity is because of his hair, rather than his star performance in keeping the economy afloat and not selling Australia's sovereignty off in exchange for a pat on the head from a Texan retard.

Please, Mal. Lie to us. Now. And don't stop until the swinging voters save the country from our vapid, self-serving stupidity.

In another thread I told rechtub my words are not a debating style, not a fabrication to prove a point.
It is how I think, given the polling it is how Australia thinks.
A weakened, lost, leaderless, conservative movement is a product of John Howard's one man leadership style.
The lies defamation, refusal to pass bills, [I wounder if senators ever use the rest rooms? it seems unlikely as they pass very little.
Not a policy's its stone walling, stopping a government from governing.
Unlike the stolid defend at all cost, 3 wise monkey ways of shadow minister and hasbeen, the refusal to see truth, I want a better opposition.
I want it more than conservatives seem to.
You lost.
You continue to do so.
Your next chance to rule may well be 20 years away, it will take policy's, ideas, it will take courage, to get Wilson Tucky Bronwin, so very many more out of the house.
And new blood in ideas plans, not the childish spite from hasbeen.
I find it imposable to believe those I mention here are not members of the Parliament, I see the child like blindness and foot stamping of Christoper Pyne, but it could be any of 20 conservatives who fight a bully boy school fight in the house no respect for truth or their followers, sticks and stones.
Can those who care for the party Sir Robert Menzies founded truly tell me after his disgusting record in Ute gate, Turnbull is the man to lead you?
Will he survive a senate inquiry? or will the senate not let Justice be done yet again?
It is no way to govern country a hand full of lost soles blocking every thing.

There’s one very clear direction that this thread should be taking…..and it just ain’t doing that at all. That is the direction of exploring what Mal should be doing to pull himself out of his messy debacle and give his party a solid chance at the next election.

I’ve put forward my thoughts on the embracement of sustainability. It seems patently clear to me that this is the best strategy if not the only one that will work.

Mal’s holding onto a poisoned chalice. Anyone who takes over from him will suck on the same poison. Changing leadership is no solution. And continuing to be a Ruddite me-tooist is no solution.

I used to despise Turnbull. I still despise his politics but I’ve come around to seeing him as capable as any political leader and as adaptable to the sustainability paradigm as anyone in the liblabs.

It’s all about developing the right policies for the future of this country and selling them effectively so that they will resonate with the constituency……isn’t it?

Come on, let’s not get hung up on personality traits or ridiculous bloody distractions like Utegate.

Or am I just on a totally different wavelength (or planet) to everyone else on this thread??

Hey I was listening to Penny Wong last night and I realised she actually isn't human. She is a robot created in the image of Kevin. All they did is get Kevin, change the voice, make shorter and colour in the hair to black.

Seriously, if you were to just read a transcript of the interview, she uses all the same phrases, and is indistinguishable from Rudd.

She uses 'let me just say this'... and all the Rudd isms I cant think of at the moment. She has the same look on her face, the same public service lingo, the same hairdo, the same monotone robotic way of talking , the same faux indignation at the opposition, everything. It's quite creepy. To think that we have a robotic mini-me of Rudd running around.

H,
Ignoring the facts won't make them go away or make them untrue.
Tell me what are you saying that people(in general) aren't after what's in it for them? Are you saying people more often put others before themselves...for the greater good?

Are you saying then that we should never mention and therefore try and change our base natures for the better? the implications of your stance is well, sad. I at least believe we can lift ourselves from the mess we're in.
You really must stop being so thin skinned if you want to be aggressive or at least don't lead with your chin.

Not sure what that's all about. Are you a big fan of Penny Wong?

Hay Sancho, how's your field of vision?

Must be a bit restricted, from right up there.

Ludwig makes a good point. It does not matter who leads the Liberal Coalition if the material they have to work with remains the same.

For Turnbull and the Libs to turn this around they have to do the unthinkable - and think outside the square. If you buy into the whole ETS mentality without thinking about what it is you are trying to achieve then the war is lost before it it has begun.

Turnbull will be under pressure from the big end of town just as Rudd is to wind down and make the ETS a worthless piece of legislation that might only be useful as toilet paper - recycled of course.

If Turnbull can come up with a genuine way to actually reduce greenhouse emissions and reduce our dependency on coal then he may rein in some disenchanted swinging voters who voted largely on the promise of attention to climate change. The voters aren't stupid (well not all of the time) they know a clayton's scheme when they see one - they had plenty of time to learn under John Howard.

But we can all dream and it ain't gunna happen.

The Liberals running on a sustainability platform?

Outside my window, a squadron of pigs are assembled, ready to take off.

Don't do that CJ.

I just took a mouthful of tea which ended up on my keyboard. :)

Ok CJ, I know it's early but I'm off to have a few drinks with me serious mates.

Thankyou Pelican for your considered response.

“But we can all dream and it ain't gunna happen.”

It certainly looks that way. But we cannot afford to accept it!!

It HAS to happen! The stable-population steady-state-economy sustainability paradigm simply HAS to happen…or else we’re all ROOTED!

I really don’t think it is that hard!

“The voters aren't stupid (well not all of the time) they know a clayton's scheme when they see one”

And what is the biggest ‘Clayton’s’ scheme of all? The assertion that rapid population growth is the key to all our woes and that we’d fall into deep recession if we significantly reduced immigration.

If a major political party was to reinforce this and related sustainability issues, they’d be on a winner. If they won a mandate to reduce population growth, then the big business vested-interest sector that pushes for a high growth rate would just have to adapt to a much lower growth rate, which would be steadily wound down to zero.

With community support, the almightily powerful big biz lobby would be neutered.

Of course we would also need to make government a whole lot more independent of this lobby, by way of abolishing political donations and various others things that have been put forward by Tony Fitzgerald and Premier Anna Bligh recently in Queensland.

I too laugh at CJ’s dismissal of the libs embracing sustainability…or I should say; I laugh at CJ for expressing such a simplistic dismissal of the prospect, instead of offering something useful to this vitally important line of discussion!

Ludwig, I agree with your objectives - but you're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think that the Coalition (or indeed, the ALP) is going to embrace real sustainability in the foreseeable future.

You're probably right that they'll have to eventually, but they'll wait until things get much, much worse before finally acting when it's too late. I very much doubt whether you or I will ever see it.

the two party scam is run by the same elite cartel-scum,...

yea big busines ..with their suss-taint-able two party machinemen..ever seeking to further impoverish the great unwashed...or as they call them the great mindless useless eaters..and get their next taxpayer handout..

its a..conjoined eugenics adgenda...first dumb-us down..then program our mind rot..via sports and homeandaway...in-sert a bit of big bother...build up maximum fear levels then offer their cure..

tax the wage-paying super paying..taxpaying stooge's...they are to blame..for daring to breath out carbon..not their/your factories poluting our soils waters and air

watch tv you retarded stooges..your betters..will tell you when you can breath..when you..deserve a pay rise..or when you must pay their latest tax subsidy..to the big business masters...who have managed to privatise..lol..the peoples assets..

while centralising their power structure...into constituted courts and govt oppressions..under guise of moral policing of the retards/imbisiles...a proper legal term

while hiding their plunder..under limited liability..incorperations owning yet other ltd..incoorperations[..multinatinional's owning other multinationals...and if your good..you can sit..in a parrishuted in..board seat..bored yet?

the bankers and lawyers..need their new tax carbon cash cow...need an excuse to compulsoilly pump carconogenic f1n1 swine flew..into your system...a nice slow/cancer death for you lot..of useless eaters...

go ahead and fall for the divide and conquer of the two-party elites...blaming the latest hollow-caust deneying...brown-shirts wearing green

i would add listen to alex jones
http://www.infowars.com/
if you dare...but hey what do you care...lol..or else..

please dont claim you wernt told...yes this is the next generation...who will not be allowed to grow old...as those who grew old before you

shut up you mugs ...do as your told...your better ones..will do your thinking and speaking for you...

comeon down mal baby...come-in spinner..i warrmed up the fools/dolts for you...

One under god,

I see your god has filled you with love and hope!

CJ,Ludwig, Pelican
Absolutely, My point was along the same lines...How do we get the people to adopt look beyond their selfish interests long enough to consider a massive change in our modus operandi of our magic pudding delusional economics etc.

It is one thing to "in theory" to see what has to be done but contrary to H's need to be entertained. Implementation/integration of a concept like steady "state economics" (Ludwig post the sites for them) which is counter current power structures and or requires people to think, need lots of commitment and even more boring hard unexciting work.

Ludwig your red Goshawk project is fascination but the work is dull, dull dull, leeches ticks, snakes etc ...did I mention hot sweaty and uncomfortable....and unexciting.

Trying to motivate the obvious limiting of the masses 'wants', masked as needs by business (will be seen as sacrifices) as per Ludwig's sites is daunting.

Along that line the axiom that "we get the politicians we deserve seems to ring true".

"Your mission if you accept it is to find a way to implement/integrate a solution. If you or any of your IM team are captured or killed the people will disavow any knowledge of your actions....Good luck Mr Phelps(?) This post will self destruct on reading ."

Come on C J Morgan have you ever tried to clean up a room after a flock of pigs has flown through?
Keep them on your side of the fence bloke.
Ludwig, surely you understand sustainability and conservative are words that do not go together.
Turnbulls leadership is not sustainable, policy's or not.

Me-Maaate,

Back from very serious drinking with very serious friends (around a bbq no less).

General feeling? Mal's trying hard, caught between a rock and a hard place. (Ute-gate a blunderous distraction of his own doing).

Big Mal knows what needs to be done, having it tough trying to pander to the true believers.

Personally, I've always admired the guy - but the neo-con hard-right back-stabbers will see to his demise. Sad, really.

Hey Hasbeen, do you think Senator Fielding's God-fearing fundies have a hope in the House of Reps? If not, who you goin to vote for, Mr Informal?

Oh, Hasbeen! Don't be such a sourpuss. So you're not clever or funny or articulate. That's okay! I'm sure there are lots of things you're good at.

“Ludwig, I agree with your objectives - but you're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think that the Coalition (or indeed, the ALP) is going to embrace real sustainability in the foreseeable future.”

CJ, I can see exactly why you feel this way. But to repeat myself; we can’t afford to accept this. We simply MUST strive to implement sensible sustainability-based governance before it happens as a result of glaringly obvious impending doom….which will be well and truly toooo late!

.
“...surely you understand sustainability and conservative are words that do not go together.”

No I don’t see it that way Belly. What I do understand is that political parties will do what they have to to win power….and if it can be impressed on the opposition that there is merit in towing the sustainability line, as just about their only chance of winning power, then they just might do it, or something that is heading a bit more in that direction than the current grossly unsustainable future-destroying Ruddist approach to governance.

I don’t think that there is any fundamental conflict between conservative values and a stable population / steady state economic paradigm. To the contrary - you could easily see the promotion of never-ending population and economic growth as being at odds with conservative values.

.
“...your red Goshawk project is fascination but the work is dull, dull dull, leeches ticks, snakes etc ...did I mention hot sweaty and uncomfortable....and unexciting.”

Examinator, what haaave you been up to – bashing through tick and taipan-infested long grass in Darwin stringybark forest on the Tiwi Islands trying to get a look at red goshawks…or what? ( :> 0

i have wrote email after email to every pollitician in asking to stand up in parliament to ask mr rudd to apoligize to all us forgotten australians and i keep sending messages on twitter every day to both of kevin rudd and malcom turnbull but i guess they have me on block like all my emails i send to them in asking for our apology

this is about us forgotten australians just as much as the climate change

the climate has been changing for centries , the astriods put the hole in our ozone not just the pollution,

we all know that

and we all know the goverment of australia has denied the forgotten australians justice

becuase the states desroy our truth to prove our thuth of what happend to us in their state institutions orphanages , girls homes boys homes , state ward homes the list goes on

so where is our apology mr rudd ,

KARACHI..The Carbon Tax has been challenged in Sindh High Court by Sohail Hameed Advocate here on Friday...He filed a constitutional petition against the increase in petroleum products..due to imposition of Carbon Tax.

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Regional/Karachi/04-Jul-2009/High-Court-moved-against-Carbon-Tax

Sohail moved to SHC by submitting that the Carbon Tax was illegal and unconstitutional,..and such tax could not be imposed by the annual budget...Legislation must be done before the imposition of such tax but there was no any legislation had been taken in this regard.

Mentioning the recent hike in the oil prices due to imposition of Carbon Tax,..the plaintiff submitted that Oil and Gas Regulatory Authority..(OGRA)..is using its authority in a wrong way and also violating the basic human rights.

The use of tax policy to control behavior of a populace is criminal and unconstitutional...Demand an end to this charade

I think we need to back up and get into what the Cap and Trade Bill is and does...the Cap and Trade system sets some arbitrary amount of CO2 emissions...the money/market is going to create a new commodities market..('Carbon Credits')..where people who need Carbon Credits go and bid on it...Wall Street Bankers are very excited about this.

its/cost we're going to see is at the market place...you will either pay/increase price's or pay the same price for a smaller amount...This is where the speculators/bonus...our new/cost comes in.

The point is the Cap and Trade Bill is a new/tax,..It's apermitted/emissions system that allows new powers to strangle many..a lot more money plus...lol..green/jobs raising/fees and fines from..the new greenie spies/...monitoring our new/tax....regime

does govt have the CONSTITUTED/right ...to create a new form of money/credit/tax?

In Australia,..the creation of legal tender, in the form of gold/silver coins,..is the exclusive right of the Commonwealth Government....carbon credcit=new cash/tax

According to the Commonwealth Of Australia Act..Sect 115,which states:.."A State shall not coin money,..nor make anything but gold and silver coin a legal tender in payment of debts."

I have after yesterday in the senate some advice for a man I refuse to call big.
That term belongs to a former prime minister who strangely grew much bigger in his life after Parliament.
Yesterday bloke, proved my point, you face as much difficulty from within your party as from Labor.
Even there your right to lead is challenged.
While you put a brave face on it, the election, the one that is to and must come, for both houses, is the end for your dreams.
It must come will come, bought on by your party's actions in the senate, a party that as nothing to gain and every thing to lose from this election.
That senate, on current form is a stone wall must be challenged and hopefully the independents playing a game they are unsuited to returned to private life forever.
Mr Turnbull how can you put a brave face on so badly hurting your party? a victory and passing of those bills, a weakened and unfocused conservative rabble are in your future.
With every fiber of your body, try very hard, to get involved in pre selection now, import some talent export the many Wilson Tucky's, the saddle bags filled with rock, holding your party back, that and your graceful exit from the house will be of great service to your soon to be badly damaged party.

"Personally, I've always admired the guy..."

Ever met Mal, Q&A? Ahem!

Hasbeen you reckon Rudd's ETS is bad? Have you had a gander at "big" Mal's ETS proposals?

Nope.

Neither have I met Rudd, Obama, Mahatma, or JC - but that's besides the point.

He's the best best they've got on environment stuff at the moment - he just happens to have a big albatross round his neck (not his fault).

If you disagree, name one better and I'll back you all the way.

"He's the best best they've got on environment stuff at the moment - he just happens to have a big albatross round his neck (not his fault)."

Yes Q&A - I'm aware of the albatross round his kneck (Minchin et al) but what is it you like about his environmental proposals?

Will his proposals benefit the common good or are they just another dud like Rudd's which is to appease the big end of town?

Proto

Both you and I understand the science stuff - although we may disagree on the minutiae (that is not unusual in the scientific community, btw).

I think we also agree that the "debate" is really being played out by politicians, economists and social ideologues - not scientists.

Turnbull is a 'dead man walking', but he is the best the 'conservative' side of politics (in Oz) has to offer in terms of strategies (not policies) to address the challenges the world (not Oz) must face in coming years.

Again, if you disagree, name an alternative in the non-government side of Oz politics that can lead us there.

Turnbull is playing the political game, so is Rudd. Reality check - they all do it. We are all but pawns in their game.

At the end of the day, the environment is all that matters - it doesn't give a stuff about politics, religion, he says/you say, whatever.

Some in the big end of town do care ... the small end of town do not have a monopoly on what is right, or what is wrong.

Yes proto, I agree entirely.

I can't believe that either of them are stupid enough to believe this AGW rubbish, particularly with all the genuine info available to them.

This being the case, they are both beneath contempt in that they are prepared to seriously damage the lives of tens of thousands of middle aussies to achieve their political aims.

I believe the motive form Krud is to find a way, any way, for a double disolution election. This is what he wants and Turnbul knows it.

At the present moment Australia faces some real challenges in the future, most of them ecconomic.

We have experienced almost a decade of unprecidented growth, yet, after just a year or so of slow down, we are almost on our knees financially.

How on earth can making us 'less competetive' on the world market be anything other than a complete disarster for our ecconomy.

If and when any Australian government impliments their caron trading scheme, and it makes our industry wear the financial burdon, you can all but kiss goodby to any form of manufaturing here, along with many other insudtries as, for as long as our trading partners don't follow the same rules, we are doomed.

Now you think we have had a rough year or two, well brace yourselves as you 'aint seen nothin yet'!

Gather round brothers and sisters of the not right.
I have a story to tell, so excuse me while I climb up on the stump.
Remember how we felt when Howard had the keys to the lodge welded to him?
As our side fell again and again over its own feet?
Crean , how did we let that happen?
Oh please the mad man Latham, it hurts still.
But cheer up, it is our turn in the sun.
Here in this thread and others is a poster who STILL thinks Peter Costello is going to charge back into the house and lead.
And watch this space, so very many who think Turnbull can undo his messy unmaking, hide the man he a proved he is.
NEVER not ever will he win an election, unless its NSW state.
Yet so hard up for talent is the conservative rabble they look for the imposable.
Our turn in the darkness will come, aways comes, but enjoy, our best asset our very best ace, is this mob .
They keep the sun shining on us, maybe for more than another decade.
Turnbull I thank you true I am a sunlight fan thanks again.

Q&A

The good eggs at the big end of town are not the problem. It’s the big, big bad eggs who feign concern about GW and purport to be “good corporate citizens” whilst increasing their hazardous emissions. This reinforces my belief that self-regulation of pollutant industries has always been a dismal failure, despite the implementation of the Environmental Protection Act legislation in the 70s. Some joke that eh?

Perhaps you’re correct about Turnbull’s ability to pull a rabbit out of the hat on carbon emissions.

What a tragedy that the Libs initiated debate on the environment in the 80’s and Howard et al managed to gag everyone. In 1980, Andrew Peacock personally signed a commitment to cut emissions by 20%; Chris Puplick repeated the GHG target and the Coalition was backing bigger cuts sooner than Labor though both sides then acknowledged that climate change was a bipartisan issue.

According to Guy Pearse’s account, even under Hewson, the deeper emissions reduction target was larger than the Hawke government’s proposal. Chaney was proud of the policy and environment minister Robert Hill had great plans for Australia to do something.

It appears that Hill was progressively undermined on GH policy by his colleagues – Howard, Minchin, Anderson, Downer and mad dog Tuckey. Three down, two to go plus the additional Joe Planet rapist neo-clones plotting against every effective proposal to mitigate emissions.

“can't believe that either of them are stupid enough to believe this AGW rubbish, particularly with all the genuine info available to them.”

Hasbeen the “genuine info” is compelling. The current profligate eco-vandalism by humans has already proved to be unsustainable therefore I fully support adopting measures to curb anthropogenic hazardous emissions. It’s just that I believe the current ETS proposal will fail. You, for example, could become a sub-contractor and plant a few million trees for, let’s say BHP Billiton, however, that will not mitigate the hazardous emissions from their operations.

Though of profound significance, there is much more to ecological sustainability than just carbon-based chemical emissions warming the planet.

The problems faced by Gough Whitlam which he seemed to want to fix by a double dissolution, in an election called in 1974, are similar to the problems being faced by KR today, and James Scullin in 1931. Both Scullin and Whitlam tried to rush Australia into reform, and got ahead of the consensus, and the unseemly haste with which the Parties are attempting to rush us into carbon trading is similar.

While there seems to be a consensus at the moment on climate change, will this continue when jobs start to evaporate, the economy starts to deteriorate under increased taxation, homelessness increases at an exponential rate, and lawlessness is embarrassingly apparent and threatening our third greatest export, education.

I am not a fan of Malcolm Turnbull, mainly because he is a lawyer, and lawyers are the worst criminals in Australia if the law was enforced against them. Howard was a lawyer too, and he spent eleven and a half years protecting his lawless mates, in the legal profession, while prosecuting an imaginary terror threat created by deceptions in the United States.

The Labor Government has its share of lawyers too, but KR is not one of them. There are thirty lawyers in the Australian Labor Party out of eighty three. The Labor Party has a majority that they could lose by losing eight seats. While Belly is feeling really cocky, and sure the Labor Party will be returned again, my gut is telling me that Rudd must be careful not to upset his constituency. Rudd will continue to be safe provided he does not lose the Christian centre. If he descends into animal and tree worship, like the Greens want him to, and ignores the sixty five percent majority, of Australians, especially the six percent who swung to his side last time, a double dissolution could be the last thing he would want.

Rudd’s two pushy environmentalists are Llb’s Wong and Garrett. The other twenty eight lawyers should read Exodus to Arthur by a scientist called Mike Bailey, and get climate change into perspective. We all could win then

Protagoras,
Well said (hyperbole aside).
At my most negative I'd say to Mal pick up your tent, your roadblock mates on both sides of the houses and get the hell out of the way.

So I am getting cocky Peter The Believer?
Tell you what save this post , throw it at me in 12 months if I am wrong.
I post what I think, true without biases.
Here are my views Turnbull is gone, will not be leader, maybe even in the house in 12 months.
Rudd wins with increased majority.
Conservatives find a way to avoid double election, they must or suffer for generations.
However Rudd, no matter what he says, will push for such an election.
The senate is in the hands of the kids and he can not govern with out trying to unseat them, if he gets his election.
Greens alone have balance of power.

Examinator - Turnbull’s softening approach on delaying electricity costs over 25 years, won’t see citizens putting on an extra sweater – they'll continue on rampage as usual, therefore I think your suggestion has merit.

“Rudd will continue to be safe provided he does not lose the Christian centre. If he descends into animal and tree worship, like the Greens want him to, and ignores the sixty five percent majority, of Australians.....,”

Peter the Believer – Has anyone told you lately that the planet’s not for sale? Has anyone told you that the “animal(s) and tree(s)” you say the Greens worship, are essential for human survival, or that the plundering of forests, slaughter of wildlife, destruction of habitats and the intensive farming of livestock is threatening human health?

Seventy per cent of emerging human diseases are now of zoonotic origin. Zoonotic diseases have jumped the species and medical science is flat out endeavouring to halt the dreadful effects.

In fact British scientists have hypothesised that the Mad Cow Disease mutation of Creutzfeldt Jakob disease, afflicting humans, could have been a result of feeding human bones from India’s funeral pyres to British cattle. Have you no respect for the animals which keep you fat and contented or the trees which mitigate man's pollution?

Now that you've evoked my ire, allow me to read you the riot act:

“As for the children of men, it is God’s way of testing them and showing that they are in themselves beasts, for the lot of man and of beast are one lot; the one dies as well as the other. Both have the same life breath and man has no advantage over the beast; for all is vanity. Both go to the same place; both were made from dust and to the dust they both return!” (Ecclesiastes 16:18)

So you see Peter the Believer, in YOUR God’s eyes, you are worth no more than a sparrow!

Belly
The senate is in the hands of the kids and he can not govern with out trying to unseat them, if he gets his election.
Greens alone have balance of power.

And life as we know it will be over.

No more rec fishing, no more camp fires, forget frazer island, you can just read about it in the history books.

Are you arare that it is a criminal offence to get caught fishing in a 'green zone'. There are no signs by the way, just a line on a map. Meanwhile, kids continue to roam our streets yet nothing is done about it. But, fish in a no-go zone, and you're a criminal.

You think it's tough now to clear forerts in readiness for bush fire season.

No radical thinking group should ever be able to have balance of power, full stop!

Look at the progress made by government once that gay bloke from tassie was gone. Harradine was a prime example of letting ones personal beleifes cloud their decisons.

I also think the labor party starts and stops with Krud. I think he is a good man, but there is daylight between first and second in that party.

Meanwhile, the states continue to suffer under labor, something that is eating away at a federal level like a cancer.

Aunty Anna is one of the federal libs best weapons.