R0bert:”Pied Piper, no walks of shame. I've been mildly tipsy a few times but never drunk and I've never been in a situation where a one night stand seemed like a good plan. There are aspects of casual sex where I doubt that I would be comfortable that I'd done the right thing by myself or the other person. Sometimes I could kick myself for that but mostly it works for me.”

Me too, I was just saying I’d heard about this “shame” thing.[grin]

Houel, you have to appreciate a woman who will take nothing back, stand by her post no matter what. Gawd if 6 people wrote to me saying “take it back” I bloody would in a shot whether I meant it or not.

“How would that happen? What a weird thing to say. I'm happy with my long term partner and kids thanks. Any surprises (it's a better word than mistake for the poor unexpected child) we would deal with.”

She might go back to NZ for a holiday and get eaten by a glacier? Attacked by a Tuatara? Get trampled at the annual kiwifruit round up?

Ah surprises, now I don’t have a uterus and I’m still terrified of having like an ectopic pregnancy or something. I would fair spew. Although my little sister wants one so could be handy…

Anyway that was just a quick blither… you have to find me this thing you’re going to remember until your dying day Houel. I can’t find it (cause I haven’t looked) and it’s bugging me now.

But Yabby (and nup haven’t read a single book on the subject) if a female does have this rush of hormones and wants to keep it – the hormones wouldn’t affect a decision like she knows that it’s going to be born a mutant or something and decides to abort.

Hormones may make a suggestion but they do not make a decision? Is that close to what you and Protagoras both mean?

Careful Protagoras,
Even though you are right the wounded male ego in some, overwhelms any rationality or objectivity, engendering the "a victim must be found." and as per G&S "Mikado" they have a (tied ) little list (of prejudices).

To be fair there are evil vile women, some who on any rational basis, don't deserve to be parents. But, two tiny points.. it's not about the parents it's about the children and heaven forbid that males should actually take some responsibility and if not then for the consequences.
In any relationship there are two and while some women are unable to leave a violent relationship it is pre stone-age reasoning to say ( as some do ) it is in man's nature to be the aggressor and that women should leave and if she doesn't therefore the male can claim some perversion of caveat emptor...she knew what I was like. Many “stone- age” tribes of PNG don't accept such DV. This attitude and its very creaky impotent defense are simply the last ditch stand of the recalcitrant, lazy, insecure social Luddites.

While this perspective is an eminently defensible observation. The response will undoubtedly be to attack on spurious grounds of style rather than substance focusing on vitriol against the messenger..

Hey Fractelle, I agree it becomes offensive. It was a bit weird he’d immediately be insulting towards mothers and include his own in the insult in a message to me but I got what he was doing.

Fractelle he obviously knows what he is doing, you know what he is doing and yeah he probably does believe it. He’ll be set in his ways, thinks he knows it all already… you can’t really do anything about him.

Why bother? Just let him be him, it’s a punishment unto itself.

Nick Cave is cool that voice aye. Yeah I don’t think Kylie would have made as much somehow or looked as good as she does now.

The picture… I have never talked about a picture so much and normally my photos have people I know in them. Can you tell me what sort of subject matter you prefer? Me – obviously kids and I take about one good one every 500 or so, thank goodness for digital. I have a good little camera for a mum sony 14 megapixel, no clue how to use it properly.

I’ll guess a name, if you’re Fractelle online I’ll go for Pixel for your photography.[smile]

Piper, yes indeed there are cases of mothers who know that the future
baby will be deformed and still decide to go ahead. Personally I think
that is a bit selfish. See it this way.
In your brain there is effectively a competition going on, from many
different sections. That means that you can think one thing but feel
something else. Emotions can be strongly affected by hormonal input.

*you have to appreciate a woman who will take nothing back, stand by her post no matter what*

Nope, that just tells you that they are stubborn and difficult. I have
far more respect for a person who can think something through, then
admit when they got it wrong. That is character for you!

*Simian-brain,Yabby, brags that his shearer friend*

Ah dickie dear, I did not brag, but pointed out. I am not as judgemental
as you are about other people. Fact is that you are
not going to change the laws of nature by complaining, but by
better education. I have long promoted better sex education and
the teaching of evolution theory in all schools, as
well as conflict resolution skills. Many social problems would
vanish if they were, but if society decides to not bother, then
don't be amazed if these social problems occur, including lots
of gullible, pregnant females who got sucked in. So be it,
that is society's problem and not my problem for I have suggested
a solution and people are seemingly not interested. They would
rather just complain, as we see in your case.

Fraccy, you are dead right, I have absolutaly no issues about paying
for sex. Money is only a problem when you don't have any :)

Now why should I be a cheapskate and want a freebe? Why should I go
and tell a heap of lies to get into somebody's knickers? Much easier
to just give them some bucks, so that they can have the pleasure of
going shopping, if they give me the pleasure I'm after. All very
simple really and totally rational. But that is seemingly way
beyond you.

Where to start?

Houllie

You, Yabby and many other men judge women by their appearance. You have demonstrated this by implying that I would 'appear' too old for my partner. Yabby; by insisting that prostitution is a good career move for attractive women. Do you have a daughter?

You also exaggerate and take out of context comments I made about men in general being more visually cued towards women. Fortunately for you both, women, for the most part, are more forgiving about appearance. BTW what really pressed my buttons then was the holier than thou a certain OLO CEO was taking - enough to say I know rather more about him than maybe you do.

FYI Yabby is in his 50's, he certainly has a mind-set that is from the 50's. Actually I don't have a problem with him paying for sex - that's how he chooses to live his life - but I am not about to romanticise the facts and pretend that prostitution is easy street; the women earn every cent they make and you're fooling yourselves if you think they do it because of a high libido or they are somehow different from other woman. They're just women with a high gross-out thresh-hold - like nurses or ambos.

Yabby

I have discussed prostitution in other threads. You would be aware I believe the workers supply an essential service for the disabled or elderly. But don't tell me that prostitution is a better career than doctor, lawyer, prime minister, CEO, artist or nurse . That's total B/S.

I have to ask, why is it OK for you to try to wind me up? But if I wind you up, that's not acceptable? Oh yeah, 50's mindset.

Contd...

contd...

Piper

The hormones a woman is flooded with at conception can change her perception on wanting a child, I also agree she can still make pragmatic choices; if the baby is disabled or whatever. But male or female we sometimes don't make logical choices.

How would you like this for a choice? Something a man will never face.

My cousin was expecting twin boys, one of them with Downs, the issue was that she could terminate the pregnancy or give birth to one normal and one mentally disabled boy. She chose to go ahead with the birth. Her disabled boy has very severe Downs and won't even be able to work - ever, unlike some Downs people who can live independent lives. The boys are now 18. I don't know how she manages - but you kind of remind me of her in your mannerisms. I think she is amazing.

Yet I would expect Yabby would call my cousin selfish - but then it is very easy to sit on the sidelines and pass judgement.

I know I couldn't have gone ahead, I know my strengths and I also know my weaknesses. Nor could I foster the children that you do. I don't even know if I could've been a good mother or not - I'll never have that chance. Now the 'manly' brigade will cast aspersions on my maternal skills. Sheesh.

Likewise not all men should be fathers, which gets us back to the big responsibility question. Should men just screw whoever they want and not take the consequences?