Miranda Devine wrote a piece on Malcolm Turnbull and Tony Abbott in which she alludes to the fact that Kevin Rudd sits on the balcony at Kiribili House, gazing across the harbor at Turnbull’s mansion. She postulates that despite the difference in the polls, about 66 to 16% Kevin Rudd may not feel as secure in the Prime Ministerial mansion, as he could feel.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/the-remaking-of-the-mad-monk-20090729-e1ip.html

While Kevin Rudd captured the Christian centre in the last election and won a swag of seats, 23 in fact, could it be that many of these could be oncers. Have the professional political advisers, underestimated the impact of Rudd’s Christian Campaign, that captured the centre, and moved the rusted on Christian vote to a minuscule shift to the left that could as easily swing back.

With sixty five percent of Australians calling themselves Christians, even though many don’t attend church anymore, how many watch the services on television, and still feel like Christians. If Malcolm Turnbull was born again, to the fundamentals of good government evident in the Australian Constitution, apologized belatedly not only to Aboriginal Australians but the white fellas as well, for the departure from Christian principles of government, brought about largely by Liberal Party arrogance, and misunderstanding of the electorate, could he make Kevin Rudd a oncer. After all Kevin only needed 12 months to unseat John Howard. Kevin has a lot of white ants in his party, and there are many who feel a bit uneasy about some Labor policies and lack of action on others

The oncers as ya call em must have been pretty disgruntled with some thing.
Abbott would not be a leader, i say he would do worse than Turnbull.
All they do is condemn everything.
If honest John stepped aside and let his apprentice ave a go, it's quite posable they would still be there today.

I saw a grab on the news last night of Julia Gillard's address to the ALP Convention where she said that the ALP had got to the top of the political mountain and "doesn't it feel good, delegates".

I'm wondering if this is the equivalent of Paul Keating's "true believers" comment after his 1993 election win. Is this a sign of the ALP's hubris that is a portent of their demise?

Nope!

I find it quite extraordinary that the line of thinking expressed in threads like this one, and there have quite a few along similar lines about how the opposition can topple the incumbents, is entirely based on strategies for winning power, and not at all on what is good for the country!

No one on this forum has refuted my tenet that sustainability is of paramount importance. No one thinks that we are currently living sustainably or are likely to in the foreseeable future without some major changes in governance and in the way we all do business. Only one or two respondents seem to not be concerned about continuous rapid expansionism.

And yet this doesn’t seem to even enter the thought processes of those who would like to see the opposition become an effective political force to the extent of rolling Rudd at the next election.

When is an opposition leader, at federal or state level, going to have a go at espousing limits to expansion and all the other stuff that goes towards developing a truly sustainable future?

Why is this so hard for any politician or party to grasp?

Could the libs have less chance of winning the next election if they embraced the sustainability paradigm? Isn’t it worth a try?

Come on Malcolm. Show some true leadership, of the sort that the country will thank you greatly for in a few years time.

I too Ludwig am surprised by threads like this, and the question it asks.
Fact is Turnbull has lost his chance to ever be prime minister.
It has been his own party as much as Labor who stopped his run.
He in any case would have had to wait until after the next election, at least.
Your concerns about sustainability are shared by many, but surely few can say by conservatives?
PTB you are blind to the fact both Howard and Rudd had the Christian votes, not any more if as many as the total of the Greens.
Abbott? come now never, he a hard man? well he thinks so but a marsh mellow in fact never ever to lead.
Hockey just maybe but not Turnbull or his party until they get substance and policy's not wasted fear tactics and lies

I can't believe that anyone in their right mind could even mention the words "Hockey" and "just maybe" (regarding leadership) in the one sentence. Hockey is one of the biggest buffoons that parliament has ever had the misfortune to accommodate. Hockey will eventually be banished to the backblocks, just like Wilson Tuckey. Hockey is a serious liability for the great Liberal Party.

Tony Abbott has disappointed me is aligning himself with the Murdoch dynasty.I would like to see a prospective future leader think for himself rather than wanting to be annointed by the global corporates.

I thought Malcolm Turnbull would shine,but alas is still finding his feet.He should be tearing the Cliche Kid to pieces.

Kevin Rudd is the most shallow,narsisstic person ever to have been granted the title of PM of Aust.Julia Gillard knows this,along with many others in Labor who have integrety.Kevin is the Kyle Sandilands of Aust politics.Grab any populist's headline to premote your own image.If Kevin Rudd is PM after the next election,he will destroy this country with debt and spending sprees that destroy productivity.

Sometime just after World War II some sort of an un-written pact was reached between Labor and the Conservative Party Coalition, that religion and politics would no longer be mixed in Australia. This deal held until after Mark Latham was languishing in the polls, and they called up Kim Beasley. When Beasley was still not cutting the mustard, some back room boys including Kevin Rudd, decided that they would have to make a move to beat Howard, and the way to do it was play the Christian Card.

This was cleverly done, by calling a National Christian Heritage Forum, in Canberra attended by about 500 influential Christians at Parliament house, on 6th and 7th August 2006, with representatives of Christian groups from all over Australia. That is where Kevin Rudd made his first public pitch that the Australian Labor Party was as Christian as the Liberal and National Coalition.

There are many Christian members of Parliament but they have had a bipartisan relationship, and not one was prepared to break ranks and openly campaign as a Christian until Kevin Rudd. This was a sucker punch to John Howard, unexpected and totally out of character for the Labor Party. No one ever accused Bob Hawke of being a Christian, and neither did Paul Keating attract that epithet, but Paul claimed that Labor was a religion with true believers, after winning the 1993 election, and the Christian centre stirred.

Secretly the Liberals and Nationals had been courting the Christian vote, and inflicted defeat after defeat on the Labor machine, in the federal political arena, until Labor decided to have a go at the religious card.

Most Australians are not all that happy with multi-culturism. We could tolerate it, because it gives us a great lifestyle, with a multifarious choice of restaurants, plenty of workers who want to make a better life for themselves, but underneath there has been resentment. If Turnbull wants to lead Australia, he had better start catering for the majority at the centre of Australian politics, and start to realize that there are many laws Christians do not like

The Liberal Party machine in Manly prior to the 2004 election put out a Press release claiming that the Liberal party was a Broad Church. It was a Broad Church of the Christian variety of course, and when Mark Latham came out and said he was not gay, but an atheist, people like Bronwyn Bishop were able to campaign openly for the Christian vote, and won what should have been an un-winnable election.

Throughout the length and breadth of Australia a campaign is being waged calling on the current generation of Christians to be the justice generation. This campaign is not just in Sydney, but is said to reach up to two million Christians at least once a month by way of Christian television, CDs, DVDs and music, and the church leading the push is able to make music so good that it sells at or near the top of the popular charts. One of the body blows to Work Choices was the expression of public concern by both the Anglican and Roman Catholic Archbishops.

It is not just in Australia where this is happening, but also in places like Uganda where there is an Aids crisis, or was, and the Christian Church is leading the way in promoting ideas that have reduced the incidence of AIDS from about 40% down to about eight, and programs to house and feed widows and orphans.

While the mainstream churches like the Anglicans were feeling secure in their cosy paid for Churches, with extensive property holdings, the upstart radical mostly Protestant Christians have been out winning the young people back to church. There is still a long way to go, but it is already true that more people go to these churches than the combined memberships of all Political Parties.

Straw polling of people who voted Labor for the first time in 2007, indicates that they voted Labor, because they saw Federal Labor as a more just party than the Liberals. They simply did not see work choices as just, but the dissatisfaction goes much deeper. Turnbull could tap into this mother lode

A Christian Scholar looking back at the last 100 years, will see the gradual departure from the principles of the Christian system of government, starting about 1949. When Ben Chiffley was defeated by big business, after an aborted attempt to nationalize the banks, and Menzies was defeated in a very determined attempt to ban the Communist Party, both political machines were having trouble with their Christian factions. Somewhere a deal was struck, and both major parties considered their Christian connections could be ignored because they balanced each other out.

When Whitlam started governing like Nero, the people were enormously uncomfortable, and welcomed Fraser with open arms and a clear majority, expecting to see the tide rolled back. It did not happen, and in fact by 1982 people were saying he was no better than Whitlam, and they may as well have Hawke. Hawke is a PK. A PK is a Pastors Kid, and a lot of them harbor resentment against the Christian Church their fathers served, because the lifestyle of many pastors was hard.

There was often not a lot of money around, parsimonious parishioners were often not willing to support their pastor, or value his teaching. Many were either ignorant of the importance of Christianity, or in a community divided between a Catholic Majority and a Protestant minority.

The scholars will see that Paul Keating’s government introduced an enormous amount of legislation that if enforced, restored the Christian system, and that he did not deserve to lose in 1996, if there was any justice in the world.

His mistake was believing the Christian vote was irrelevant, and boasting about the ideology of the “True believers”. This was unacceptable to a small group of swinging voters right at the centre, who shifted camps. He and Howard still look as if they cannot believe what’s happened to them.

Turnbull has the ball at his feet. One thing Christians are supposed to do is forgive. There is a DVD out there circulating extolling the virtues of the Constitution. Turnbull should get a copy and decide if he wants to be Prime Minister

Latham gay?
I do not think he was even happy, or human.
Right now, yep now read the polling, take a quick look, poor old Turnbull is at 16%.
He never ever can come back from that.
Well if his party let him lead then yes he could.
But they are fractured and lost, just look at this mornings Murdock press, Ajay like it or not they are the engine room of your party.
The blind insulting references to ALP conference, the little boy like support for Turnbull, its hugely wasted effort.
Abbott is a dill, but he is being fast tracked to try for Turnbulls job, notice Hockey, [every thing master says is true but still a very real chance] has been quite?
It is a fact, wisdom does not always lay in only our own ideas.
Australia thinks far different than say master or arjay, Rudd is here to stay.
Turnbull is not.
Largely because his party has pushed him in the wrong direction ,wrong ideas if any except opposition for the sake of it.
This evolution of the ALP is forever, get your money on it, Rudd and his party are here to stay, 3 terms no less .

There is nothing as fickle as an electorate. Just because there are 23 seats cushioning the Australian Labor Party in the House of Representatives, does not mean that enough seats cannot change hands to cause an upset. They did not think Rob Borbidge had a chance in 1995, in the election that should have been won by Goss easily, but in a precursor to Howard’s win in 1996, a Liberal won Mundingburra and Pauline Hanson, disendorsed by the Liberal Party won Oxley.

That obscured the real contest for a few years, as the State of Queensland became the State of Confusion. When Rudd carried Queensland he carried Australia. He may have been very unlucky that Bligh won the last State election, because the only protest possible against her is a vote against Rudd, for another three years. Usually Bligh would have been defeated, in the balancing act of Australian electoral fortunes, where the States usually don’t elect the same party as is in power in Canberra.

Kevin Rudd was elected to lead Australia, and part of that leadership must be to rein in the States. So far he has not done so. We are still loaded with 100,000 homeless people, and threatened with even more. This is a problem caused by State incompetence. It is perpetuated by Federal inaction. If Malcolm Turnbull will start to examine all the legislation passed in the past forty years, since the abolition of the separation of powers in New South Wales, and the adoption of atheism as the State Religions, put up a list of State legislation that contradicts the Australian Constitution, and promises to do something about it, then the rank outsider could make a comeback. The Constitution does apply to the States. Even a true believer like Lionel Murphy knew that, so why don’t the Liberals. Rudd said the Constitution is paramount.

His biggest broken promise so far has been his failure in 20 months, to address breaches of the Constitution by State Governments, and action to provide a venue where such abuses can be remedied. That makes him vulnerable

Some are so far from reality I wonder how it happened.
I saw Peter the believers comment labor and Liberals did a deal, wasn't it pre ww2?
Interesting fantasy, however Ming, giving my age away there, Sir Robert who founded todays Liberal party may have had more in common with Rudd than Turnbull.
A question begs for an answer, how come this modern day party can find so little choice for leadership?
Blame it on Howard, he killed young shoots as they emerged and his legacy is still harming his party.
To think Costello, is still mentioned, Turnbull who has already proved a failure, Abbott is is not good enough to be a failed leader, and Hockey the next in the dead mans seat, who else?
Tell me who leads after the Rudd slide to come?

Next week in Parliament will be hard for Turnbull.
Maybe as hard as this past weekend will prove to be.
That shot of his wife, leading him, at the very instant proof hit the fan he was working based on a lie to unseat Rudd.
Aussies often call the little woman the trouble and strife, in this case its about right.
We , none of us, elected Mrs Turnbull, Howard too for that matter, and few will be happy to see her so involved.The final nail in Turnbulls political coffin may have to wait until after the election in both house, soon a fact, but it is under the hammer right now.

Ludwigg, politics is not about running the country/state, it's all about winning votes.

I see one of the main problems with our system is compulsory voting. Why have it, why not leave the voting to the people who actually care.

I can rememebr people not voting for huston because he drove a ferrari.

You can bet your bottom dollar the majority will vote for the gov which gives them the least grief.

What about cuts to wefare if your kids wag school. Often talked about but little happens.

The last election was lost on workchoices. How many people do you know persoanally who were worse off under workchoices. How many do you know personally who received a pay cut.

Where labourers getting $30+ per hour prior to WC.

Sure, some were worse off under WC, but only the low skilled. No high skilled worker would have put up with being underpaid, they just go elswhere.

Take the QLD state election, it was won with scare tactics and lies.

“Ludwigg, politics is not about running the country/state, it's all about winning votes.”

Rehctub, this often-repeated assertion is a furphy!

Sure politics is about holding on to power and hence winning votes. But it is also about running the country. The two are not mutually exclusive. They overlap enormously.

I’m asserting here, and have been on this forum for a long time now, that the best strategy for oppositions to gain and hold on to power is just the same as the best strategy for running the country, especially for as long as incumbents are doing such a poor job, with the fundamental flaw of promoting never-ending expansionism, regardless of which side of politics they are on.

I don’t see any solid counter argument being put up here.

So let me ask the straight question then:

Do people think that Turnbull and his mob have a better chance of winning power by developing a genuine sustainability strategy and thus setting themselves up as a very different alternative to the incumbents, or by being essentially identical to KRudd in his absolutely manic maximised growth-at-all-costs totally antisustainability-oriented approach?

I have been writing to both Kevin Rudd and Malcolm Turnbull for many years but find that both are showing ignorance to constitutional provisions and limitations the moment it may not suit them otherwise. And here is where the problem lies because they both purport to pursue the constitution but really don’t.
.
Either one could win the next election if just they were to use the constitution as their platform but neither one of them would want to do so as after all a politician is after more power and wouldn’t want to give up power ill gained.
.
In my view it would be better if we got rid of the major political parties and get true representation

All Threads die, they wander in and out of reality, as some pursue rather strange ideas.
Rechtub pushes his class war barrow, Ludwig has an interesting barrow, one most of us agree in part with.
But self interest, that drives voters.
Mr what ever believes both sides can win the next election,if only they follow his path.
The thread asks questions about Turnbull.
Nothing else.
This mornings Australian answers that question.
Have no doubt, he is finished.
Now if John Howard stepped back into his party's leadership this morning he COULD NOT WIN THE NEXT ELECTION.
Why?
Be open be honest, stop the Krudd rubbish, a bill to limit political donations, to make it clear who gives them, is one of nine stalled in the senate.
Look at that list.
Ask why.
Look come just look with an open mind, at our national debt, fear it I do.
But compare it with America's, England's, the worlds,
This ALP voter says it is time, today, for our country's sake
For conservatives to come to the aid of their party, opposition for opposition sake has blinded you to reality you must not wait for us to drop the ball.
Your side is in big trouble, you do not even know what direction to run in.
In part Turnbull died at the hands of true fools within his party , in retrospect he should never have been able to buy way in to the job.
Find leadership, find direction, find solidarity behind a policy's plan, not fighting dirty.

Perhaps Turnbull could turn the tide by going cap in hand to Peter Costello and asking him to take the leadership. Someone said he could be the greatest leader the NSW Liberals ever had. Peter Van Onsolen suggested as much on Saturday.

As a hard nosed lawyer,with a proven track record in economic management it is hard to see how the Liberal Party would not draft Costello in its time of need.

Menzies was after all down a few times in his career too. The Opposition needs to be credible to make sure the Government does its job properly.

What an extraordinary contradiction:

To promote Costello as leader and then say;

“The Opposition needs to be credible to make sure the Government does its job properly.”

Dear oh dear odear!! { ;~|

Yes it is strange on many levels, he does not want the job, he has as many enemy's as friends, in the party.
He has calmed down, got the sneer under control but it would appear only too soon if he did a back wards triple summer salute.
He will not, ever, who will lead?
PTB has said a truth, right now leadership and direction are a must.
Look at the conservatives front bench look no further than shadow treasurer Coonan, surely they must look else ware for the future
If 10 dead weight members went now, a leader could be drafted, surely a pool of talent exists??
Lets not look for it in state Parliaments, in NSW even with my mob lost and not worth finding their best assert is a just as bad Liberal party.

Look come just look with an open mind, at our national debt, fear it I do.
But compare it with America's, England's, the worlds

Belly, you can’t compare our national debt with US etc unless you take it as ‘per capita’.

Remember, we only have 22 million. New York has this many alone almost.

In any case, why do my grand kids (and their not even born yet) have to be subjected to a life of debt.

Also, don’t forget Creen and Lathem . You are just lucky Krud came along

Well rechtub at least you came here to empty your rubbish bin.
Others who slandered Rudd and Swan in the threads lets talk are noted by their absence.
You will never be shaken from your path by facts, but our debt ,the worlds debt, is a fact.
It is and was our only path , your shops and many others suffered far less because of stimulus package.
Waste concerns me, some of the story's about schools soon to close are waste, if true.
You rechtub waste your words in not truly lifting the rug, looking at what got your mob into this mess.
Not understanding at a time so very many are concerned at our debts our future.
Very few, not enough, would consider your lost in space mob, to be in power.
Malcolm Turnbull? he can not sail your ship away from the rocks he is sure to go or your ship does.
Regards for your confidence in Rudd, you give weight to my plee, we came back, from the worst leader in our history Latham.
The journey for your lost tribe is a bit further but Turnbull is not one bit better for you than Mad Mark was for us

It is so good to hear an intelligent thoughtful individual like Belly, admit mad Mark Latham was a disaster. However what was his disaster, and how close did the Australian Labor Party go towards losing its fifth straight election.

It could lose its first in a new run of Liberal wins, if a really good lawyer was to prosecute the next election in front of the big jury. Most of the Liberal front bench are lawyers, Turnbull, Abbot, Coonan, and lots more but if you know how extraordinarily ordinary the average Australian lawyer is, as I do, you would despair as a Liberal voter, and the good Labor voters could rejoice.

My good Labor friends raged about the dismissal in 1975. They vilified Sir John Kerr, but in reality all he did was refer the decision as all good judges should to the jury to determine as fact whether the incumbent was a fit and proper person to lead the Government. Unfortunately they did not have much choice, and until Rudd came along, there was no change of government for about forty years.

Unfortunately for Kevin, he only got the leadership by three votes, and still has a huge lawyer’s rump in the Labor Party, and an even bigger conservative resistance party in the public service, so he is vulnerable to an attack in the big jury, from a real Christian leader. In 20 months he has not yet addressed homelessness, the dishonesty of the High Court, the dishonesty of the Federal Court of Australia and Family Courts, and a few other things, that he should have given priority to.

Turnbull could turn the tide by turning tail and walking out of the Parliament of the Commonwealth, into a safe State seat to lead New South Wales into the coming millennia. Both he and Tony Abbott are Roman Catholic. The belief since birth and primary school that the priest is always right, is a handicap, that a certain leader with a Baptist Christian brother does not have. Rudd and Gillard prosecuted in front of the Big Jury, could be interesting

Ok Belly, retail sales have fallen and the blame has been pointed at the stimulus package running on empty. The cash is gone!

So what now. All that money splashed around, all that debt incurred for future generations and little to no REAL jobs created.

You accuse me of lifting the rug; well Krudd has done just that. He's adopted the old 'just throw money at it and it will go away'. Yep! But now the money has run out so now what. More stimuli, more debt, still without REAL job creation.

Remember, we only have a very small population here and, considering the under aged and the over aged, then take away the 42% who don't pay positive taxes, boy there's not many of us left to pay back that debt.

As we are now running on empty again and, with certain job losses almost a given, how and when do you propose we will pay back this enormous Krudd debt?

Now unless you intend to answer my question, rather than put me down again, I would request that you please do not make refference to me again in this thread.

Of cause I would preffer that you answer the question!

Labor finished with a 52.70 per cent two-party-preferred figure, a 5.44 per cent swing from 2004. On preferences, 79.7 per cent of Green votes flowed to Labor, 60.3 per cent of Family First votes flowed to the Coalition, with 62.5 per cent of Democrat votes flowing to Labor.

One would think relying on the hype of the media, and the incompetence of Turnbull, that the win for Labor was monumental. These figures come from Wikipedia, and reflect the plurality of the Australian electorate. If a certain figure accepts that he should not really leave the Parliament at the end of this term, and that he has a duty of some kind to the people who voted for him, in not quite large enough numbers to be next Prime Minister, last election, then this next election could be interesting.

Three people in one hundred, in a uniform swing, would change this government, and re-instal a Liberal one. If the polling by Opinion Poll seven weeks out from November 24 2007, had been realised on election night, the result would have been a total disaster for the Liberals, as there were predicted to be 14 people in a hundred shifting camp. Kevin Rudd is being lulled into a sort of semi coma, by the sycophants who always surround an incumbent, but he should remind himself not to take his electorate for granted. They are fickle and if a new and good looking boyfriend came along, and asked for a date with destiny, Destiny just may go out with him.

It is a real pleasure to live in interesting times. Kevin Rudd has not yet rolled back the legislation made to appease a NSW Gangster, by the Liberal Party after 1975. He should get a good legal adviser to show him how he can do this without any further legislation, and may even be able to employ one after he retires at the next election. The Dollar Sweets man, will have to make a dollar somehow. Kevin is not a lawyer, but he needs good independent legal advice. The AGS need not apply

Living in Far North Queensland, and at one time being a cattleman, and enjoying a cool beer on a hot day, in Coen, Cooktown, Lakeland and Mareeba, I have heard plenty of tales from people who have been prosecuted on indictment for stealing cattle.

These all had one theme running through them, and that was that when the chips are down, a person needs the best legal advice available. Every one of these lovable rogues was probably guilty of stealing at least one beast in his life, as the temptation to kill a fat bullock that just happens to be stealing your grass, and knowing the owner has probably eaten one of yours, is huge.

I know one case where a bloke was accused of poddy dodging, and of course when the trial came on some two years after there were only pictures to show, the evidence having grown up into bullocks and cows by then. The good lawyer hired knew a bit about cattle, and noticed an anomaly in the evidence. The pictures of the alleged stolen calves, were taken against a Yard Rail, and they were not as big as they should have been at the age alleged. The calves were ring ins, and the alleged cows, were not the ones the Police had mustered. CASE DISMISSED.

In another case an agent was accused of claiming excessive numbers of cattle which had died in transit, from Cape York to Mareeba, in the cattle trucks. Truckies do their best but somehow sometimes a beast will die. These are insured. A bumbling local lawyer was hired at first, but it looked grim. The boys were looking at doing some time in Her Majesty’s . In desperation they went to Brisbane, and hired a real lawyer. This bloke cost them $40,000 but he found serious flaws in the Police case, and they got off without even a fine.

Kevin Rudd needs to look outside his usual advisers, because if Turnbull does the honourable thing and falls on his sword, a good Constitutional argument, could see Rudd rolled

PTB? the longest time Labor was in opposition is 23 years.
Unable to understand your reference to 40 years.
Rechtub what was the question?
Bloke this forum is , well I think it is, a place of free speech, a place we can, with respect state our opinions.
Now most of us, you and I for sure, do not hide what we think.
Are you telling me while you no doubt have a view about me you do not want me to have one about you?
Look truly, that anyone, no matter who, thinks Turnbull can win a federal election, or would consider going to state Parliament, is so far from reality it stuns me.
The thread is not stumbling on much more but it had real promise if people are honest.
The thread asked a question the answer is no

Rechtub what was the question?

Yes belly, here was my question.
As we are now running on empty again and, with certain job losses almost a given, how and when do you propose we will pay back this enormous Krudd debt?

History shows us that labor has a habbit of running up huge debt, then the conservitives have to try and balance the books.

As we all no doubt know from our own experiences, it takes much longer to repay debt than it does to clock it up.

Perhaps this explains why the conservitives have enjoyed almost a 2 to 1 majority when it comes to the holding of office over the past 100 years.

So over to you belly. Just how does Krudd and his crusaders intend to repay the debts, or, will it simply be up to the other side to once again fix the problems created from Krudds reckless ways.

By the way, I would never stop you from voicing your opinion. This is what olo is all about.

As I indicated before if Turnbull was to change his conduct to become more what is right constitutionally, such as getting rid of the unconstitutional compulsory voting for starters then many will vote for him in that regard.
Likewise if he stops the unconstitutional payments to former G-G and former Prime Ministers.
As a CONSTITUTIONALIST I see ample of area’s Malcolm could get electors on his side by merely doing what is constitutionally required. However unlikely will he do so because currently they are paid about $2.00 per vote and so financially it is better for the party to stick to the unconstitutional compulsory voting. On 19 July 2006 the County Court of Victoria ruled in my favour against the Commonwealth when I submitted it was unconstitutional for the Commonwealth to compel anyone to vote.
Likewise only those who are holding a seat in Parliament can draw allowance from consolidated Revenue Funds. Former members have no such entitlements. Likewise former G–G’s and former PM’s have no right (constitutionally) to draw salaries or other perks.
Therefore Malcolm can revive his position if just he was considering what is constitutionally appropriate rather then his own (financial) and his own party’s interest.

Could Malcolm Turnbull turn the tide?

Could Malcolm Turnbull check his evidence before making allegations?

Turnbull's days as Liberal Leader were numbered from day one because he is simply too arrogant to be tolerated by the Liberal Party power brokers.

First rechtub, every word in this post, it may take two, is what I truly believe.
Yes we are in deep debt, yes it concerns me.
Part of the reason we are not as bad as other western country's is good planing and things put in place by the last Labor government and John Howard government.
A greater part can be put squarely on the greatest mining boom in this country's history during the Howard years.
Industrial reforms by both Keiting and Howard Hawk too, made this growth possible.
Not however work choices,
Following the great times that put dollars in our piggy bank, not good government, we now face what EVERY THINKING HUMAN must have feared, the wave crashed on the beach, leaving us stranded.
My fear of the debt is real, my understanding it screams higher tax's less services under any form of government is true.
I KNOW [please bring back Forrest gump we need him and a way of emphasis]
We had no other path but to stimulate the economy.
Think if in power Turnbull may ave done it, remind you rechtub it was Howard long before the crash who started the cash hand outs.
Yes some money has been wasted, I cringe, started threads condemning hand outs to dead or overseas people, school rebuilding then closed, but are they all true? do you believe every thing conservatives say?
I true can not.
Mate you yes you must look at your side, lies are more common that ideas in a once great party, not until you get leadership and policy's can you go froward again.

I truly think rechtub you and others like you are not blind to the reasons Rudd spent the cash, or that he had little choice.
Yes the total would be about the same, in my view no matter who ruled us.
The direction under Conservatives would have been far different.
Are you truly unhappy with pensioners hand out? really?
Did you spend your $900 straight away,I did on some thing I could not afford before,for some one else.
Did we have anther way of spending it? yes hundreds but why is your way better?
How would you have done it, how would it have helped us more.
rechtub you must be aware surely Rudd is home in the next election, Turnbull is propped up only for a time by no leadership being left in Howard's ego driven one man government style?
Do yo understand this idiotic Conservative plan to stop the Parliament acting via the senate is only working for ultra conservatives?
That 3 maybe 4 Terms are in Labors future because of negativity from your side?
rechtub, ignore the ideas that changing vote to other than it is can change governments, its not even an issue, do you, truly, think Turnbull can stay?
Do you think given his actions you can trust him.
Do you understand it is not going to be conservative voters who put you back in the house but ours and you are doing nothing but driving them away.

Belly
Are you truly unhappy with pensioners hand out? really?

Not really. Rental assistance, yes, assistance to have items in the house fixed, yes, remember, it costs a pensioner up to $80 just to have a tradie turn up, help here would have been nice, a food and necessities card/voucher, yes, but smokes, grog and pokies –NO!

Did you spend your $900 straight away ,I did on some thing I could not afford before, for some one else.
I don’t even know if I got it, sorry.

Did we have anther way of spending it?
Not sure what you mean, us or the gov.

As for consumers, I saw a lady buy 23 cartons of cigs, when asked why 23, she replied the $900 wasn’t enough to buy 24. Thank ‘F’ for that!

Now as for the gov, how about ‘real jobs creation, set up plants to value add and create jobs. Another classic, the gateway bridge debacle.

Sure, there won’t be as many delays in the future, but seriously, is a 20 minute a day delay more important than the hundreds who have now lost their jobs? Especially in these times.

The fact is that Krudd has squandered billions, put the next few generations into debt and you lot have no real plan for repaying it.

Once again it will be up to the conservatives to one day try to plug the holes in readiness for your next bid adventure/!.

I do however agree that the next election is all but in the bag. Just hope to much damage is not done before they have to call in the ‘fixers’.

Remember, there’s not many things left to sell, especially once anna lie has been to the sale.

do you, truly, think Turnbull can stay?
Do you think given his actions you can trust him.
Yes well I asked the same question about anna, but hey, anything is possible. I don't favor the man by the way.

I still think costello will one day run this country.

Malcolm has proven himself long before entering Parliament but I view his ego is in his way and he has lost sight on being cautious and has become reckless and hence made this ill-fated attack upon Kevin.
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I have absolutely no doubt that Malcolm could turn the tide if he was less aggressive against Kevin and concentrate more upon what issues he can pursue that is acceptable with the electorate and can score him political advantage.
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We had John Howard going around with the debt truck only to more then double it when he was in power and having sold of the family jewels, so to say.
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Generally no matter who is in power they consider what may suit them best to be elected in the next election and voting for one or the other isn’t going to change it, unless you vote for independents as then you might end up with a House in chaos but at least you may stop the DICTATORSHIP that now exist.
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Constitutionally we do not elect leaders, they are so to say shoved down our throats. Whichever party exist they decide amongst themselves who shall be their leader and if they get into power they decide who will be leading them!
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Do not have the illusion that you vote for a Prime Minister because whomever becomes prime minister can be disposed of by his own party members in Parliament.

So come on Belly, I've answered your questions, so how about you answer mine, or, am I to assume that you simply can't!

Hey, we can all splash money around, either to win friends or influence people/voters, but hey, how on earth are we going to repay this spending spree.

So come on Belly, you can't just keep asking questions and not answering the ones that you are asked yourself.

Firstly, rehctub, how about YOU take a stab at the question the Right is meticulously avoiding: what would the Libs have done differently?

"Don't mention the GFC" became a conservative mantra overnight, but some day you'll have to face the fact that your lot ran the entire world into a depression with its blind ideology, and now we're reliant on the progressives to save us [which they're doing admirably, hence Rudd's high approval ratings].

Try acknowledging the mess your economic beliefs have created before having the gall to call belly out over debt.

Firstly, rehctub, how about YOU take a stab at the question the Right is meticulously avoiding: what would the Libs have done differently?

Fair call sancho, but first I would like to here from belly, after all, I have answered his questions and I will answer yours in due cause. But then again, belly rarely answers questions so here goes.

The first thing that comes to mind are Ir laws. Of cause the voters are happy with the new laws, they get a much better deal, NOW! But at what cost in the future. Many businesses will stop expanding or go off shore.

It is no coincidence that the best growth years in recent history have been when unions have had less opportunities to become disruptive. Many tradies have enjoyed the best years of their lives 02 through 07, now many of them don't know when and where their next job is comming from.

Secondly, there is the future fund. That's money in the bank I believe, not on the credit card.

Cash hand outs. I am sure the libs wouldn't have allowed it to be wasted, as much of it was wasted. Now what!

Finnaly, I was a swinging voter. In my voting history I have voted for both labor and lib. Bob Halk was our best ever PM in my view but since the labor gov introduced UFD, along with many other restricting laws I have never voted for them since. Why? Because they screw honnest employers just like me and place a wall between myself and my staff.

Over to you belly, my kids now have a debt, their kids will certainly have one to if an when they are born and maybe their kids kids?

I was not avoiding you rechtub, left at 4am this morning truly thought you got your answer in my two posts above.
I ask one thing of you, read my post here think about it then tell me if you think I am wrong
AS highlighted in posts above we had to spend big.
IMF and a great deal more say it stopped a great depression,
I think it did, rather a great depression or great debt?
Your kids will pay, not as much or for as long as Americas children, or England's.
oh just this you could if you wish answer my question, how would you mob have done it?
This post is not a debating point, not a fabrication, just honestly what I truly believe every word of it.
What do you think you would have done, give us the details bloke

Belly
Are you truly unhappy with pensioners hand out? Really?

Here is my answer.
Not really. Rental assistance, yes, assistance to have items in the house fixed, yes, remember, it costs a pensioner up to $80 just to have a tradie turn up, help here would have been nice, a food and necessities card/voucher, yes, but smokes, grog and pokies –NO!

Did we have anther way of spending it?

I saw a lady buy 23 cartons of cigs, when asked why 23; she replied the $900 wasn’t enough to buy 24. Thank ‘F’ for that!

You answered my question with yet another question.

Firstly, we need real jobs. How about we look to support our farmers, buy their crops (at cost) when the market falls, process these and send the goods overseas as aid, instead of cash.

Stop live export; provide subsidised labour and process the meats here then send this OS instead of cash (WHICH WE DON'T HAVE). What we do have is abettors closed in places. Why not use them.

This way people have to work for welfare payments.

Say they work 30 hours per fortnight at minimum wage rates, paid for by the government instead of the dole, then we would have half a chance of being competitive as a notion.

This really is grounds for a new thread but seriously, just handing cash, to cash strapped people, is not the answer.

I will bet that many of these recipients, the ones who splashed their cash are now in a deep depression because they were in a sense give false hope.

What should have happened was the stimuli should have been in the form of a restricted debit card, with an expiry date. Then ALL the money would have gone into the economy as intended. 'Use it, or loose it!

Krudd simply had an each way bet, as he knew that a certain % would come back to him in the form of taxes, on grog, cigs, gambling.

Kind of an 'indian giver' in a way. Clever hey!

Now my plan would create jobs and repay debt.

At work today rechtub, yep a long way from home and listening to radio national.
About lunch time the debate was live exports sheep from WA.
Seems the RSPCA wants to pay farmers not to export live sheep.
They claim the extra profits in live exports are about $2 a head.
Not likely thinks me.
But well researched WA farm industry gave the true figure, about $20 a head more to export than grow prime lamb.
in WA Lamb prices are low, very much lower than what you pay, a cartel exists, it is imposable to get more .
If your sheep, just some of them ,got on to the market in WA a glut would soon bring prices down more, how would that help farmers?
The issues are complex answers not as easy as you think.
KRUDD?
mate get used to it, such thoughts as yours are very much minority views, you have a long wait for a return to power, enjoy, I will.
Start that thread I will come.