“Lastly, there is always an inherent contradiction between the interests of humans and that of the environment”

NO! There isn’t CJ!

And it is surely the role of the greenies…however you may perceive greenies…. to strive to make the human existence on this continent (and planet) exist in harmony with the natural environment.

Is this really that hard? Aborigines and other indigenous peoples did it! Sure they modified their environments, as does every single species to some extent, but they came to live in harmony with them. That is; they came to live sustainably within the environment that they were a part of!

“Australia is legally and morally bound to accept bona fide refugees from such places, no matter how they get here.”

Ah phoowey!! Australia is bound by the edict of common sense to pursue the goal of sustainability.

The great problem with the refugee agreement that we are signatory of is that it is open-ended. It has nothing to say about numbers! It has nothing to say about the effects that accommodating large numbers of refugees could have on the host country, it’s quality of life, social harmony, environment, etc.

Australia actually accepted more refugees than any other country in the world last year on a per-capita basis and was second in raw numbers to the US.

Sure, we are morally bound to do our bit. We could accept twice as many. But certainly not by loosening our borders and prompting a large increase in onshore arrivals.

“It always seems supremely selfish to me when the comparatively wealthy beneficiaries of previous settlement claim that there's no room for those invariably poor and brown people who have been displaced from there homes by no fault of their own.”

Who’s saying that there is no room? Our debate is all about how they come here, how they are treated and how to treat them well without while maintaining control over who comes here.

Protagoras: “Why is it unfair?”

Probably bad word choice. Just doesn’t make sense I guess to critique any other country. Wouldn’t mind finding one that has sorted their own immigration and refugee puzzles though.

Antonios moved to Cyprus didn’t he? It is interesting that we never really see anyone as being anything but of their place of birth. I can see you admire some things Greek and if man is the measure of all things then we should try harder to accept all of them from everywhere.

Ludwig:”Australia actually accepted more refugees than any other country in the world last year on a per-capita basis and was second in raw numbers to the US.”

That’s just because there isn’t many people here though aye. Is the question becoming not whether to let them come but what to do with them once here? What does happen to a refugee that arrives, are they found work and housing quite swiftly? Placed on benefits?

Antonios:”The Pied Piper please keep a distance from me and protect yourself! I have a long way to go and it will no be easy!”

No.[smile]

You need to settle down a bit, Ludwig - you're starting to foam at the keyboard. By "coming clean" I meant that you've finally admitted that your paranoia about 'boat people' and your imagined hordes massed at Australia's borders is not driven by ecological concerns, but rather by your antipathy to the cultures that asylum seekers bring with them.

Further, you show clearly that your paranoid conjecture about 'boat people' is sufficient justification (in your mind) to treat asylum seekers inhumanely - how on earth could I think you're misanthropic? As you may be aware, the only study that has been done with 'boat people' who came to Australia recently indicates that they are generally ignorant about Australia, and even more so about our government policies towards refugees. [ http://tiny.cc/yvskf ]

Frankly, I don't know whether Rudd's more humane policies will encourage more genuine refugees to come to Australia by boat, and neither do you nor anybody else. The difference between us is that I don't see it as the end of the world as we know it if Australia has to accommodate even 10,000 boat people who are entitled by law to seek asylum here. Human rights trump xenophobic paranoia, in my book.

We agree that it would be preferable to process these people's applications offshore, but another area of disagreement is that I think that we are legally and morally bound to accept asylum seekers who arrive by boat for assessment until such time as facilities for processing them exist overseas.

Lastly (for now), you're off with the fairies if you think that Australians would be prepared to willingly consider the radical reduction in material standards of living that would be required for us to achieve the ecological balance that Aborigines had with the Australian environment before 1788. Rather, their approach - like yours - is to regard Australia as some kind of lifeboat and to repel all boarders, particularly if they have brown skin and come from a non-Western culture.

C J Morgan

It is interesting that the one report you quoted supports your view yet there are dozens of reliable studies done in Europe proving that country shopping does exist and the quick-witted illegal immigrants who manage to arrive illegally keep on moving until they find a country where the living is easiest.

Greece has been mentioned so here is an excerpt from a report relating to that country:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0424/p11s01-woeu.html

'Indeed, as one of the European Union's easternmost countries, Greece is increasingly a gateway for people fleeing conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan. Most pay smugglers to take them by land across Turkey and then by boat to Greece. Many spend time in one of several government-run detention centers for illegal immigrants, where they are fingerprinted, their details entered into an EU-wide system known as FRONTEX, and given deportation orders.

Some choose to stay in Greece, either illegally or by applying for refugee status here. But most plan to continue on to wealthier European countries, like Sweden, known for their more generous asylum policies. They either don't know about the Dublin II rules, or choose to take their chances.'

This puts the lie to the argument that most or even many of the 'refugees' who buy or otherwise smuggle themselves into other countries are satisfied to find a safe country. In fact, many do so because they are seeking a better economic future and better guvvy conditions. Many were not in imminent fear of their lives, especially having arrived in Greece.

As has been said earlier, why are there so many single men (Australian family reunification policy could explain why) and why do so many make return visits to the country they were fleeing from supposedly in fear of their lives?

It is ridiculous to assert as you do that anyone who is opposed to people smuggling and illegal immigrants and all countries are, should be labelled zenophobic and racist. By your reckoning, every country is racist, with Australia being far less so given its record levels of (combined) migrant and refugee intakes on a per capita basis.

“Protagoras do not care very much for migrants or refugees”

Antonios

My father was a migrant, so is a son-in-law, as are several friends and neighbours. According to my daughter, my son-in-law is an excellent travelling companion when one travels to the Middle East due to his Middle Eastern appearance which seemingly discourages all the hawkers one usually encounters.

You may continue to duckshove the statements you make to other sources however, I would appreciate it if you could be a little more accurate rather than perpetuate an illusion that Australia is a racist nation:

”Over 40 percent of those surveyed feel that cultural differences pose a threat to societal harmony......The study also said that 6.5 percent Australians are against multiculturalism.”

6.5 percent Antonios? Remember you’re simply a new kid on the block. We are more accustomed to migrants than any other country. In addition, the above press release does not indicate a racist attitude in my opinion but a fearful one which resonates throughout the planet since 9/11 and the advent of Islamic, suicide bombers, yet you and the Pied Piper are fighting fang and claw to portray Australia as racist - "turn thy sight unto thyself."

The fact that a few Australian halfwits engaged in the Cronulla riots and have recently discriminated against Indians is no indication that the nation is racist. The fact that Aboriginal males are sexually abusing Aboriginal children (41 years after receiving equal rights) is no indication that the Australian public is racist.

Your uninformed inference to my concerns over Australia’s fragile ecology reveals that you lack even the most rudimentary concepts of the differences between a science and a flawed, bleeding heart ideology which would lead to an unmitigated retrograde disaster for the public, the environment and this nation:

“COME IN, COME MY GOOD REFUGEES, THIS CUNTRY IS OURS AND YOURS, ALL TEMPORARY VISITORS ON THIS PLANET!”

"Racist” and EU Justice Commissioner, Barrot does not agree:

"There is a major threat to the equilibrium of the Greek democracy because of the uncontrollable flow of immigration," Barrot told a press conference in Brussels.”

http://www.ana-mpa.gr/anaweb/user/selectlang?lang=en&currpageurl=%2Fuser%2Fshowplain%3Fmaindoc%3D7754976%26maindocimg%3D7754320%26service%3D98

1. 85 per cent of Australians acknowledge racial prejudice occurs in the nation and one in five has been a victim of racist verbal abuse.
2.FORTY per cent of Australians believe some ethnic groups do not belong in the country with one in 10 having outwardly racist views, a new study shows...NSW topped the list with 46 per cent of survey respondents saying some ethnic groups should not be in the country.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24415273-12377,00.html
3. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND YOU! I HAVE BEEN ABOUT 20 YEARS HERE, MY CHILDREN LIVE HERE, MY GRANDCHILDREN WILL LIVE HERE, WE SPEAK IN THE FORUM FOR AUSTRALIA AND YOU SPEAK FOR GREECE? Do you mean every time some one desagree with you you will run to find the country of his origin and attack his country?
Do you think that the people who left their country many years before and came to australia , that they have responsibilities for their former countries? Do you mean that because Blair supported the war in Iraq the britons in australia have any responsibility for it? Are you joking Protagora?
I said you that you are extremely hard with the refugees and your advice to australians to be hard with them was for me an indicator of luck of human sensitivity.
We support the people in need AND WE KNOW THAT IF WE LEAVE THEM WITH THEIR PROBLEMS SOON OR LATER WE WILL PAY HARD FOR IT!
Do you know what I wrote last week in the forum of the greek newspaper TA NEA http://www.tanea.gr/rendered.htm
about migrants and refugees? I WAS MUCH HARDER WITH THEM THAN I AM ON THIS FORUM. I do not have two faces I stand by migrants and refugees here or in Greek forums, You can not blame for Greeks when I left it so many years before. I try, the only thing I can do!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide