I have waited for some one to start this thread.
If another one is waiting in the wings we need not see this one.
But this week,well the last and this one are historic.
Who is telling the truth? has any wrong been done?
Did that car salesman get a favor?
Any money or credit?
Well believe it or not my thoughts are not driven by bias towards my party the ALP.
I do honestly think Turnbull is threatened more by these events than any one.
Yet I also think he was miss led by others in his party, while acting foolishly he did not lie.
If his party would let him, he remains the man to lead it but his enemy is within his own party in my view.
The negative no policys policy of the federal opersition has bought us to this day.
Just maybe its time to avoid an election of both houses, rebuild and focus on policys , pass those government bills with amendments if needed.
Tell me one month from today who you think comes out worse for ware in this storm in a tea cup.
I will tell you without waiting the federal oppersition.

I suspect Turnbull's been set up as well, Belly, although my suspicion is that it was Labor, not his own people who did so. Regardless, he showed pretty appalling judgement to stick his neck out so far without evidence in his hand. This was meant to be a fishing trip, but he turned it into a whale hunt. Hunting whales is a dangerous business, especially political orcas like Rudd and Swan.

I expect he'll weather the storm and be a better politican for having done so. After all, who else have they got? Hockey? Pyne? Abbott? Bishop? I reckon my dog, Max, could do just as well as any of those and he'd be much more trustworthy...

turn-bull into votes..[we have a former banker with his back against the wall on huge fishing expiditions..[pretending knowledge that is rumoured to egsist..by gossip through internal channels..[anyone knowing how politricks works..would naturally preume that any bailouts..would create conpromising email exchanges

the betting by turnbull is that mates do as mates do..[scratch each others backs],,lets face it govt is run by big business..[allways has been allways will be,..we could expound endlessly on how howard gave half a billion to his mate in gladstone..[to build a magnesia processing plant]..

and the list for liberal govt subsidy's is as long as their conjoined[two party]..arms,but lets expound the magnesia plant that never got built despite combined fed/state..govt gifts of 1 billion

effectivly mr howhard..[and messer beatup/beaty..[who each filled the coffer with half a bil each]..were..simply speaking..doing that govts have allways done..[give private business public funds]...be it medical companies getting govt subsidy..[or the arms induistry getting huge funds,via govt]

the usual[minimum]return for electorial funding/govt bail-out return..is 100 dollars return for every dollar given..[more recently more than 1000 times,electoraL DONATIONS RETURN..[THINK OF 1000 dollar a plate dinners..lol]

everytime govt gives cash..there is the oppertuinity to turn-bull into a double disolution..via the boys club insideerr trading email/fax trail..[turn bull knows this..[its time the people knew this as well...

when will govt begin..serving the people..[simply speaking not in our life times...turnbull would be no different..he knows mud sticks..[because no-one gets in govt without the party machinations...NO BODY

the point being turn bull is as devious..as krudd is believable..[but the thing is..in the end..we will still have govt serving business its next wage/slave..tax-payer cash paid as you earn;..bonus

[regardless if its liberal largess or labour's favoured supporters getting their redemption's...little wonder the smart money backs both parties..[two to one..bet..to get 1000 to one...return,,great odds

I think this just demonstrates how a dirty tricks campaign kicks in when desperation is high and, although both sides have done it, the Libs certainly have a proven history in that department.

Their tendency to “play the man” is also a familiar trait, as frequent personal attacks against previous opponents demonstrates.

I don’t believe this was a setup by the ALP, any more than the fake Howard-Kennett memo was dreamed up by Ralph Willis 3 days out from the 1996 Federal election. That was an obvious plant by the Libs and Willis unfortunately took the bait but newly-elected Howard later refused to investigate its source.

The infamous pre-election Jackie Kelly flyer (as well as similar ones in other electorates that got no media coverage) shows more of the same. "Whatever it takes" is their motto.

Governments try to stay on a positive message and oppositions are the ones who concentrate on the negative. Rudd's got nothing to gain from this.

Turnbull is probably seeking to firm up his position as leader against any remaining potential challengers now that Costello’s finally out of the way and a high profile political scalp is the surest way to do this.

I think the strategy came from his own side and now everybody has an interest in drawing it out for as long as possible. Despite trying to generate some degree of doubt and suspicion I think Turnbull may have got it wrong on this one and will have to ride it out to the end.

I would prefer it if they got back to work and did what we are paying them to do.

I don't think anyone is going to come out of this smelling of roses. But that's what happens when you choose to wallow in the pigpen, you get covered in the stuff that you find there.

Rudd has demonstrated his skill at dodging bullets, managing to leave Swan in the firing line. Whatever the outcome, he will now be viewed with some suspicion within his own party, as well as having another layer of "Kev07" electorate gloss removed.

Swan is either a fall guy or an innocent victim. If he is exposed by the mysterious email, he doesn't have too many places to hide. If he is cleared, he probably won't suffer the same level of gloss-removal as his boss, since he has never relied upon charisma. (Does that qualify as litotes?).

Turnbull has apparently stuck his head in a noose, but I doubt very much whether it will be fatal. If there isn't an email, he will probably describe the affair as a set-up - and it sounds very likely that it is - and refuse to resign. His party will look around at the alternatives available to them and say "Errr, ok Malcolm" and that will be that.

Rudd won't be able to use his backdown for any in-parliament advantage, because it will be a constant reminder of the smell of fish hanging over the original event.

Altogether, a storm in the proverbial teacup. Merely "a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"

Got it in one, Will.

think people why else would keating give up the commonwealth bank[the background being the commonwealth was going to give govt low intrest loans[the world bank said no you will lend it from us [at over 13 percent[and you will seeloff the commonwealth bank[so keating did

lest we forget the former treasuror is on the board of the world bank[yest mr costeHELLo[who is expected to be running the govt pension sceme[you recall the sale of telstra..[be a few interesting emails there eh...anyhow soon cost-hell-oh..will be running that 60 billion fund howhard stashed away to pay govt servants..[and polies generouse super

how about howhard putting in compulsory super that gifts the stock marlketeers gambling with shocks values with our weekly super[a win/win that would also have very interesting emnail exchanges with costhello[little wonder he has ducked out of the game]

you recall how turnbull[into votes worked for that firm that got huge bailouts from us govt[they are in bewd with each other folks[dont you knoew the media cartel isnt reporting this stuff..[how did the bankers get control over issueing money[at intrest to govts in the first place[read creatures from jeckle island..

[how did govt gift them bankers the fed reserve?...by writing the fed reserve/aCT...same like bankers wrote the bailout act..[thousands of pages written in a few days...lol..yeah sure..it was[pass the act..or the finance system dies...what were you sleeping or what?]...if you dont know your not trying

we only change scemers briefly so the labor/unions can cop the blame[then the liberalies return to do more of the same

there are proofs here or there but who cares right..for any one looking to know they knew long ago[for those who dont they will simply whine about a non issue..[in the biggger sceme of things]
http://www.infowars.com/gerald-celente-washington-is-wall-st-and-wall-st-is-washington/

its both funny and sad that no one realises as we speak a joint deligation is in israel[noting 60 percent of the bankers/fed is jewish[and that the banker[turnbull]is waving the red flag as a destraction for his banking masters

read how his bank [turnbull into votes]..is paying huge bonus..recall which tax payers paid their recent bailout[turnbull into votes is a banker darn it
http://snardfarker.ning.com/profiles/blogs/goldman-sachs-staff-can-look

[look at the messenger..distracting while our govt leaders are in israrel..paying homage to the non goys who charge ursury to the world who now seek to own it or destroy it..[how did us govt give 400 nukes to israel[the lobby that runs us govt]

havnt you heard what happoend to jfk..[who tried to stop the bankers with order 11.110?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggADLt4s4pM

or recall the children of gaza
still under seige[in the land now being visitewd by the aussie deligation..[lest we forget trillions of us aid has gone to the non goys running the world/media/govt law medicine banks etc

how come julia and peter/costello are..both..in israel todaY..[THINK ABOUT IT]..of all places why israel..[loyalty to those running the world[running the war industry,running religion,running business and education...and anything else money can buy
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/06/21/the-dreams-of-gazas-children-a-true-narrative/

From what I understand of the incident:

There has been allegations of corruption against the prime minister from public servant who is prepared to stand up and testify.

The "friend" of the PM has apparently received a preferred status.

The public servant has been barred by the PM from speaking further.

What has resulted is predicable. Turnbull has called for the PM to prove that there was no favouritism or resign, which if the allegation is true would be the only path open to the PM.

Even if there is no proof of direct correspondence, if it can be shown that the "friend" received preferential bidding status, the PM's position may well be untenable.

The counter attack by Gillard and Rudd is pure bluster, as Turnbull has never claimed to be in possession of the e mail, and is an example of "the best defense is an offense".

As labor administrations are rife with jobs and favours for mates, this is mud that sticks firmly. It is the job of the PM to clean it off and not the liberals to prove.

Dear Belly,

As Peter van Onselen rightly pointed out some time
ago, for the Liberals it was a case of -
"Turnbull or bust." And it looks like things have
gone bust.

People are not stupid. Australians won't vote
for a Party that's not united - and they've been disunited
for quite some time now. This Turnbull fiasco could be the
final nail in the coffin. The man should have known
better - for all the claim about his 'political
capabilities,' he's been a disaster from the word go,
appearing less Statemanlike every time he opens his
mouth.

And who's to replace him? Julie Bishop? Joe Hockey?
or potty-mouth Abbott? Maybe like Lazarus - they can
resurrect John Howard?
It's all very sad really.

Perhaps the future for the Party lies in developing a new
united direction - where the interests of the Nation will
matter more than Party politics, money and power.
This could be the wake-up call they needed - although
I won't hold my breath.

Old habits die hard.

I think many people did not see the extended TV coverage of the senate
inquiry.
I think the actions of the chair illustrates that there was a
determined effort to shut Mr Graitz up.
His boss was sitting bedside him and tried to prevent him from answering on numerous occasions.

I missed just who the chairwoman was but she acted like she was a labor party senator.

There is no doubt that watching the TV coverage that Mr Graitz had
been spoken to very firmly before he started giving evidence.
He was very nervous and gave answers slowly and measured.
His whole demeaner was of someone who was under a lot of pressure
to give the "right" answers.

However, regardless of the existence of the email his most telling
remark was "It was clear that Mr Grant's case was very significant".
I have paraphrased his answer as I do not have a recording.
Also that the request for Mr Grant's case to be handled came from the
PMO as he put it.

The most entertaining remark was from Senator Barnaby Joyce.
Mr Graitz in one of his answers said it was very labour intensive.
Senator Joyce asked whether it was spelt Labor or Labour ?

Look, many people are saying that files cannot be really erased on
computers but anyone really in the business knows that is not true.
You simply rewrite the file with different data of the same length.
In any case files do have to disappear eventually or the drive will fill up.
Not applicable in this case of course as records would be kept
at least until there is a change of government.
I am surprised that all email records on the matter have not disappeared.

Funny how the stench of corruption seems to hang over all labor administrations from the union bosses up.

From the mis use of credit cards for brothels, the Woolongong town council, the NSW business approvals for donations to finally the PM's tenders for mates.

I can imagine an interview for a labor preselection:

"I see here you haven't filled in the part about whether you have a criminal record."

Respondent "I wasn't sure whether you needed one."

When Turnbull first came on the scene, I thought,-this bloke at least looks like a Prime Minister, lets hope he acts in a statesman like way and doesn't follow the recent trend in politics in Australia, where instead of "playing the ball, playing the man!" gets the best response with one-eyed yobbo voters, who like the football hooligans, think their side can do no wrong.

Then again,isn't it better for trivia to be debated with such heated exchanges than the way things political are played out in Iran or Zimbarbwe or many other countries?

For me, I'm turning off the news when John Grant or Godwin are mentioned.There will be another media upbeat story in a few weeks.I hope it's a lot more riviting than this nonsense.

Bazz, interesting new points.

I have no doubt Mr Graitz was being micro-managed. For better or worse, micro-managing seems to be a hallmark of the Rudd government.

It is not quite as easy to overwrite emails as you say. Yes, you can overwrite sectors on a disk. But choosing those sectors, particularly when dealing with Microsoft products that use a database as a back end, it very difficult. It is even more difficult when you realise there are bound to be several copies of the email lying around on all the recipients computers and every server in between.

As for what Mr Rudd may of may not have done on behalf of one of his constituents, I think it is important to recognise we in general expect our pollies to work on behalf of their constituents. If I recall correctly they are required by law to listen to their representations. If all Rudd did was expedite the passage of his neighbours representations to treasury I can't see any wrong doing. Treasury was looking at helping all car dealerships at the time, and Rudd just made sure he constituent had his voice heard.

As for Turnbull, he was given a smoking gun and he noisily investigated it. I consider that to be his job. Job well done I'd say. Keep 'em honest.

after/beating it up..for two weeks..turnbull into votes..is now saying let the afp figure it out

some interesting goings on at punch

http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/utegate-explained-its-not-just-about-an-email/

more info

Federal Police/are now investigating a link between the treasury official at the centre of the OzCar utegate scandal..and a senior advisor in Malcolm Turnbull’s office.
http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/fake-email-may-go-to-heart-of-turnbulls-office/
UPDATE 2.20pm:..The/Punch has learned that the staff member left Mr Turnbull’s office a few weeks ago.

Will Turnbull be the biggest victim of hoax?
[or worse orchestrated it..for a fishing expidition]

As ABC Online revealed at noon,..the AFP searched the Canberra home of Treasury official Godwin Grech..this morning and found the email suggesting the Prime Minister’s office had lobbied on behalf,..Ipswich car dealer John Grant.

It is not clear..whether Mr Grech is the assumed/author of the email,..or whether he was sent it..by someone else inside Treasury,or if true or faulse ..or whether it originated from another source.

However The Punch..understands that the AFP is now keen to speak to an advisor inside Mr Turnbull’s office,..who worked formerly at Treasury,...and has links to Mr Grech.

If it emerges that anyone/inside Mr Turnbull’s office was involved in the production or dissemination of the email,..the Opposition Leader will become the politician with the most to lose from Utegate...By the end of the day he will either have sacked his staff member,..or if it emerges that he,..as alternative Prime Minister,..knew of any scam, Mr Turnbull will be gone...thus..little wonder he wants the afp to take it over..[after he put it into the public record]..lol

If this is the case,..the fake email will no longer be merely a convenient red herring..by which Mr Rudd can deflect conflict of interest questions over Treasurer Wayne Swan,..It will become a lethal weapon he can use to destroy Malcolm Turnbull’s leadership.

The email took on legitimacy as a result of Godwin Grech’s testimony to estimates last Friday,..with every journalist in Canberra describing Grech’s heresay/memory/evidence as a“bombshell”which had taken the issue into the heart of the PM’s office...not proved

govt reports he quoted..from a copy not published..yet..[yet..it has not been produced in parliment either..lol..many people need to explain much

so who is and isn't the corupt party here , the way i see it if thier is an email it would be still in the computor or in someone else's computor, but i guess we will never find out for sure as we all know the goverment covers up the truth and coruption has been a continue's theme in both goverments liberal and labour ,

look at the cover up they have done with the victims the forgotten australians , who were raped and abused in their state run institutions , orphanages ,girls homes, boys homes, remand centres, state ward homes, state run church homes, out of home care , foster homes ,

why don't turnbull or rudd speak about this issue ,

can the australian public really trust any of our politicians who have the power to stand up and tell the truth but don't want to ,

why don't the person who gave turbull the info stand in parliment and speak out and say the truth where they got the info from or is it all crap

huffnpuff

If the alleged email existed there will be traces on servers and backups, as noted above. If the AFP aren't skilled enough to find those traces, they can always turn to a Directorate, which specialises in such.Nothing would escape them.

Events unfolding on Radio National suggest that the case is collapsing like the house of cards it appeared to be. At first, I thought "Hmmmm Turnbull might be in a bind here..." but then I recalled that:
If there is a profession for which dissembling and diversion is a prerequisite for success, it is that of the lawyer (only in a client's interest of course)
If there is a profession in which wriggling in and out of such predicaments is 2nd nature it is politics.
If there is a profession which has experience in operating in the shadows, beyond the gaze of the public, and avoiding the consequences which afflict the innocent public( see GFC), it is that of the investment banker.

I think he is home clear.

Normally I couldn't give TWO STUFFS about politicians playing in the mud pit, but this one is GREAT.

Beats Home and Away hands down.

Email's a FAKE. HAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAH HAHAHAHAH

One order of humble pie for a MR Turnbull...

It will be great news for the Liberal party if Mr Turnbull gets the boot. Do we really need another leader who believes in the fantasy of global warming and is a fan of Henson. Bob Brown would be just as suitable as Mr Turnbull to lead the Liberal party. Hopefully Joe Hockey or Tony Abbott will restore some credibility to oppose probably the most incompetent Government since Whitlam.

I am not unhappy that it was mid last week in another thread I told Foxy it was a lie And the Turnbull would be the one holding the bucket.
He has for you know , while driving today I tuned in to the voice freqency of the 607 channel and heard every word of the debate, have recorded it and will watch it soon.
Mud sticks, some, even in this thread get their information about politics from the news paper their fish and chips comes in.
Or radio shock jocks who value ratings not truth.
Turnbull has form for quoting non existent documents, mates? no money not one cent went to this bloke.
How much did Howards brother get when his firm went broke?
No blame none can be held against Swan or RUDD Turnbull will now never be PM
It is not an ALP set up its from conservative history a repeat of past dirty tactics like racist pampplets handed out during the election.
Can I ask just basic questions of those who blame the ALP for this.
No cheating ok? just to enforce your understanding of politics in this country.
the easy questions, sure you know without research.
who is shadow treasurer?
Who is [give you a hint nick name is skirt]Liberals business leader in lower house?
This last one has got me baffled I must admit who will lead the Liberals now Turnbull has to go?

Dear Belly,

I'm sick with the flu at the moment - but
I forced myself to watch, 'Question Time,'
in the House of Reps. today, and guess what?
Turnbull and his entire front bench was nowhere
to be seen. I have no idea where they had
disappeared to - only Abbott was left sitting
there on his own. I thought - how odd!
Here was Turnbull's chance - and where was he?
Deleting stuff from his computer?

Very bizarre!

Watch the news for more - I guess...

runner: quote "Hopefully Joe Hockey or Tony Abbott will restore some credibility to oppose probably the most incompetent Government since Whitlam." unquote.

How sad. Would you buy a used car from Joe Hockey? Joe was right into the fraudulent email scam.
Aah...Tony Abbott: you would only expect a failed-seminarian to go with that one.

At least your post recognises that Turnbull has thrown it away on another gamble. My bet?... nothing changes as they are bereft of talent.

1. was ANY email or not? if yes who sent it and why?
At the moment it seemed that the real victim from the email was Turnbull.
It was imposible Rudd or Swan to become victims from a face email! It is very easy to find the email sender, to find that the email is face.
THE QUESTION IS WHO TRAPPED Turnbull AND WHY?
It is sure that Turnbull was trapped and he did not know how to avoid this simple trap! He did not have the technical background from the email systems and he did not suspect dirty tricks.
Poor Turnbull the persons who trapped you, was professional and dirty, not like you!
You took a good leson and you will learn much more as you are entering deeper into politics!
Next time Mr Turnbull close your mouth if you are not sure!
And you will never be sure for your last minute informations as professional liers and croocks know how to put their trapps!
It is bad but this is the high politics!
THE FACE EMAIL DID NOT DAMAGE ONLY THE OPPOSITION LEADER BUT OUR DEMOCRACY TOO. ANY ONE WHO USE DIRTY WAYS TO HUMILIATE OUR POLITICAL LEADERS DAMAGE SERIOUSLY OUR DEMOCRACY. FROM THIS KIND OF ACTIVITIES THE REAL LOSER IS OUR DEMOCRACY!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Outside noisy, inside empty!
-Old Chinese proverb.

We certainly got an example of that today
from the Liberal Party...

The Leader of the Opposition has clearly demonstrated
today, that he is lacking in honour and integrity.

The Liberal Party if it wants to retain any credibility
whatsoever should replace Turnbull as its Leader immediately.

The man doesn't have an ounce of decency - and
will not willingly choose to resign. Afterall, it's not
his fault that the email upon which he based all of his
accusations turns out to be a fraud. His attempt to
blacken the PM's name has failed - so he can now try
to blacken the Treasurer's name... keep watching the news
of this 'comedy of errors.'

We are also expected to believe that a lawyer,
and a wheeler/dealer - who used to work for
Kerry Packer - wouldn't have done his research prior
to making the accusations... in that case he's really
not qualified to lead his Party, let alone try to run
for the country's top job - sometime in the future.
From that - we can surmise that the man is one of two things
- totally incompetent -
or so driven by personal ambition - that
it clouds his judgement - and his ability to think
rationally. Neither qualities make for a good and
desirable Leader.

It's unfortunate that people of this calibre are given
the opportunity to reach these lofty positions.
While talented and better qualified people are forced
to quit politics. But I guess the Liberal Party doesn't
have many good options open to it. Although surely it
can do better than it has done to date.

He trusted the person who gave him or spoke to him about the email.
This was his big mistake. He is new in his position and he had to be more carefull, as a leader he had to avoid the trapps even from his best friends and colegues
Few years before Kevin Rudd trusted his wife as a business woman and did not advice her to avoid to use the NO CHOICE WORK IR. She pressed her employees to sign personal agreements with lower wages and worst conditions than the awards.
Rudd thought that his wife so many years together, so many times listening Rudd's vision for labours rights and a better world could not use Howard's law against her employees but she did.
If Rudd did not know his wife and did not convince her about labour's rights for so many years how we can expect from Turnbull or any one else to avoid this kind of mistakes?
The question is who TRAPPED Turnbull, which DARK brain use this kind of dirty trapps against Turnbull.
We do not know if he/she was an opponent from the government or from his party, a business man or personal enemy.
For me this kind of mistakes is not important, it is better to speak for policies or for characters or moral codes.
USUALLY HONEST AND INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE TRAPPED EASIER THAN THE DIRTY ONE!
I understand that fanatic people does not care for human integrity or for our democracy but this kind of people have very low credibility.
Our top priority should be the minimum damage for our political leaders from INNOCENT mistakes.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

QUOTE
"I have been advised that neither I nor my office have ever spoken with Mr Grant in relation to OzCar. Neither myself nor my office have ever made any representations on his behalf. I have not been aware of any representations on his behalf. I have not been aware of any representations made by anyone in Government."
END QUOTE
.
I would in particular consider the wording; “I have been advised”, I have not been aware”.
Using such kind of wording never can be deemed to be misleading the Parliament where a person relied on upon advice or isn’t aware.
.
Hence the entire ute-gate issue was an obvious nonsense unless it could have been demonstrated that Kevin Rudd actually himself say wrote the email, and that was really never alleged.
.
While a Minister can be ill advised at times by staff it cannot hold then the Minister culpable of misleading the Parliament if the Minister relies upon the advise, as he is entitled to do, and so briefs the Parliament.
.
It also must be understood that the constitution dictates in what circumstances a Minister is to vacate his seat in certain circumstances and not that the Parliament can make up its own rules undermining what the constitution provides for.
See also http://www.office-of-the-guardian.com

Turnbull has shown himself to be a petty muckraking fool who has blown his own foot off with his reliance on a fake email.
This public servant Grech has plenty of questions to answer and in light of todays revelations I am seeing his simpering appearance before the senate in a new light. No wonder he was so nervous and fearful. He knew it was fake and had knowledge of where it really came from. My money is on a certain ex treasury official who recently worked for Turnbull. The police want to talk to him and I want to know what his relationship to Grech is.

Ah a new chapter in the tragedy that is Peter Costello.

Never thought I would say this but I am now starting to fell just a little bit sorry for him. I will be better after a nights sleep.

If the close for preselections in Higgins had been just one month later ...

Ya gotta laugh.

I am amused true, some people with clearly far more education and maybe IQ much higher than mine, are talking rubbish.
Look just for a second at my constant insulting of my own party[if you can call it that] in NSW.
Understand I value honest political comment not blindness
Ask your selves do we each want our party to win no matter how?
Or are we looking for our side to govern well?
And truely look at the timing of posts here, long after it was known the whole e mail thing was based on lies, we see people blaming Labor for it.
We stand today at a very real crisis, look at todays press read it all, questions have to be answered, do most of you now know that official once worked for Joe Hocky?
Or about the inquiry into a past worker for Turbull?
Have we forgotten the bile and spite behind every word from Abbot Hockey and the dead in the water lost Turnbull.
Had Rudd lied he should have gone Turnbull is indeed not fit to stay, he must he will go.
Conservatives must find that needle in a hay stack it will not be from this front bench, not one of them should be in the house with a mop and bucket in their hands.

One forgets that the email was one of several indicators of impropriety.

1 - The dealer (in financial difficulty) "gives" Rudd a ute.
2 - The dealer gets a gov contract.
3 - An email appears from within Wayne Swann's dept indicating a deliberate preference. (the final nail in the coffin)
4 - The gov deliberately prevents a dept employee from talking on the matter.

It would be remiss of Turnbull not to pursue the matter. The fact that the email was fake still does not clear up the issue of contracts for mates, even if there is now no clear smoking gun.

The attack by Rudd on Turnbull is an effort to deflect from this.

How is this for a scenario;

The Prime Minister indicates to the treasurer that a request is coming
to the treasury for assistance under the plan and to help it on its way.
The emails and responses that are now common knowledge take place and
finally representation is made to Ford Finance together with Grant's
mobile phone number at that meeting.
The same day after the meeting Ford Finance rings Mr Grant.

Either before or after that meeting with Ford Finance someone in the
Treasury Dept is offended by the effort being made on behalf of the
PM's mate and that he sees that the PM has kept himself in the clear
so he makes up the phony email to link in the PM.
Of course these people are not aware of the normally unseen headers reveal everything.

Plausable ?

People are dying in the streets in Iran, little girls are being traumatised as witches in Nigeria,in Australia the whole parliament is engaged in TALKING about politicians helping constituents access Government schemes.STOP contributing to this trivial nonsense before it becomes endemic to look for corruption in all walks of life with the result of people spying on neighbours nd politicians playing political games instead of running the country and chaos ensues.

GREAT PoINT DIPOLoh..i was suddendly struck by the same point[sarcosey is talking about burka's, the media ia talking about iran, were talking about a worthless snake[and the snakes in their nests just created a new tax..alcopops..[and more taxes to come..carbon tax[that seems to be quietly slipped in between the cracks]

we been talking[distracted by the bird flue..while other shenanigins havnt been discussed...like bankers owning 3/4's the world as well as their franchise that somehow allows them to create money from nothing=

[recxalling we used to have a poundNOTE..that was a promise to pay bearor one pound sterling SILVER..[that somehow became one pound of nickle-coin after we went ME-tric[k]

the oppisition was against alco tax..[yet quietly now we got it..[it was against the carbon tax..yet somehow i bet..we soon will be paying 4000 per family for it soon enough..[noting steve flielding somehow now has swine flue..[lol]..timming is everything

we also arnt talking why julia and costello are in israel..[and the palistein kids that are under istraelie occupation and under seige[with israel blocking food supply..[limiting what goes into gaza GULAG to the most basic nessesities,..after having bombed them back to the stoneage...why has julia/costello..so little to say about that

i wish we could trust our media and OUR govt but we cant[turnbull into votes is a banker,..yet we bailed out the bankers[ozcar is about financing cars..gillard a lawyer..[over 50 percent of our govt is or were lawyers..[where is the sepperation of powers..[lawyers making law?

Dear Belly,

Turnbull should resign.

He made accusations against the PM of this country,
and he can't simply back away saying that the
evidence against the PM was fake. The fact remains
the accusations were made in Parliament, in the media,
and at the very least an apology should have been
given. It wasn't.

What is so sad is that instead of discussing issues
that are in the National interest - such as the
economy, carbon emissions - and other
matters - the Opposition has chosen to focus on diverting
Parliament - with totally false scams.

The credibility of the Liberal Party is non-existant.
And their chosen Leader must resign for having destroyed
it. But being a 'scam artist,' he's going to have to be
forced out by the Party.

I wonder how many of the posters who were climbing over Rudd will now appologise.

Examinator's folk moral "If you jump into a sty to kick a pig don't be surprised if you come out dirty and looking foolish."

Objectivity, Reason and FACTS. All of the these were missing at the start.

Foxy,

Considering the accusations were made on the basis of sworn testimony to the senate, Turnbull was entire entitled to demand an enquiry.

Now that the email has proved to be false, there is no longer definite proof of impropriety, only circumstantial evidence.

Rudd has not shown that he is innocent, only that he cannot yet be proved to be guilty. The question why the mates of labor MPs win the tenders has yet to be answered.

Rudd's accusation that Turnbull was complicit in fabricating the email, is a serious accusation completely without foundation, and he should resign if he cannot substantiate it.

I also recall Kim Weasely calling for Howard's resignation over the AWB scandal without a single jot of evidence that the gov had anything to do with it.

How about keeping some perspective.
Let’s not be like Turnbull and wait until all the facts are in.

Yesterday people were cheering for Mr Grech as an innocent victim. Amazing what 24 hours can do.

It’s not like Rudd used government funds to bail out his brother’s financial obligations to his employees when his company went under, or looked the other way when the Wheat Board was paying bribes to a despotic regime.

It’s not even like Swan loaned his official phone card to his son to run up a huge personal bill for the taxpayer (until he was caught out).

It’s more like using faked com-car logbooks to try and implicate a member of the judiciary in some sordid scandal or making false accusations against a member of the other side who’s eventual alibi was that he was out of the country at the time.

More grubby tactics from a grubby team.

Ex-journalist Margot Kingston once said that there was nothing worse than Conservatives when they're on the run.

I tend to agree.

Clearly we have yet another case where the media has put Rudd in their driving seat and gone along for a cruise. Swan should be hammered on this issue by the media but Rudd took the debate into the email topic and the media went with him, when they should have been pulling him back shouting "What about Swans heavy involvement with the treasury official and the ongoing emails that do exist". Hocky is right today to point out that Swan needs to provide all correspondence including the Queensland Car Dealer emails. And where are the police raiding Swans house and hard drive. Meanwhile the ABC just plugs along supporting Labor in the same way it did in Victoria when there was Joan Kerners corruption period. Not reporting the facts can take the ship down as it did there.

I try to be fair, I am not member or supporter from LABOUR or LIBERAL party, in fact two days before I become member of Democrats.
1. Turnbull was wrong when asked Rudd or Swan to resign.
2. Turnbull had an email in his hands and according to the content of the email HE HAD TO BE HARD to Rudd and Swan.
3. BUT the email was face! Turnbull had to check first if the email was face or not and after to ask Rudd to resign. He did not check it.
4. Turnbull had a compination of facts that logicaly convinced him that the email was not face.
5. The email was face! A dark, dirty mind trapped the opposition leader and created a big problem to Turnbull, a problem with negative impact on his role as opposition Leader.
6. The role of the opposition leader is the cornerstone of our democratic system. The government MUST PROTECT THE INTEGRITY AND VALIDITY OF OPPOSITION LEADER.
7. The government must find the sender from the face email, who was, why he did it, and sent him to court for the problems he created to opposition leader and our democratic system.
8. If government will not find the sender of the face email or find him but do not sent him to court, then a BIG, DARK SHADOW WILL COVER THE GOVERNMENT, THEN MANY AUSTRALIANS WILL BELIEVE THAT THE GOVERNMENT WAS INVOLVED WITH ONE OR THE OTHER WAY WITH THE FACE EMAIL.
9. It is for the benefits of the government, the opposition leader and our democratic system to find and sent to court the creator and sender of the face email.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Sorry AS he said it was fact, bragged about it, shadow minister sounds much like Hocky.
Fact is we do not know who forged the e mail, we will know soon, we do not yet know why the fill in leader of the conservatives Turnbull rang the official or how many times.
Or why Hocky did or how often he did.
The wrong Turnbull HAS DONE is far worse than what it is claimed Swan did.
1 no loan, not one cent was given to any car dealer as a result of this scheme.
2 Rudd was leader of the opersition when he got that old second hand ute, he disclosed it long ago.
Have any of us the right to say it is wrong?
WHAT contract, tell me in detail what government contract this bloke got?
is he as a person known by Rudd or Swan barred from such contracts?
Some clearly are waiting till todays news papers are around the fish and chips to understand the issues.
In the house today the dreadful show put on by this mob is clear to honest thinkers they are up the creek without a paddle.
Only those who see no need to learn from mistakes or be honest and accountable in politics could think the egg is not squarely on Turnbull Hocky and others not the government.
Warning remember what you post, by the time this is over we will know in detail who made up this e mail we will know what took place in calls between Front benchers and that official we will see Turnbull face the fact he has to go.
he is dead by his own hand, thankfully never to unleash his spite as pm.

I'm still not convinced this whole thing isn't Costello's idea of a "Whoopee" cushion.

Kinda like a big "far-q".

Let the AFP do their job and lets get back to managing the affairs of the nation.

Well, that was fun.

Now watch the Right chalk it up as a conspiracy and gloss over the fact that the Libs are being run by an amateur desperate for political traction.

Who will they choose for Rudd to stomp into the ground next? I hope it's Abbott, although Hockey would provide a bit of drama.

Indeed Sancho.

One of the funniest aspects of this brouhaha to me is how the Libs have apparently self-destructed immediately following Costello's removal of his hat from the ring.

The Opposition is really in deep poo, isn't it? Talk about squandering opportunities...

belly quote<<.. shadow minister sounds much like Hocky...>>..thats so good...[joe hockey stiche..repeated the shadow minesters statement on lateline a few minutes ago]

shadlow min quote>>...I also recall Kim Weasely calling for Howard's resignation over the AWB scandal without a single jot of evidence that the gov had anything to do with it.>>>...

i couldnt resist thinking ...yeah..but beastlies info was based on truth...[turncoat's info/has been proven FAULSE...sort of a difference there..sloppy/joe hickeys..[shadow]

turn-bull-into-votes..got it wrong...[beastly got it spot-on]..sloppy joe cant even write his own script...i used to like the dude...but really on lateline..he looked like a pouppy dog that done a dirty on the carpet and scatched some sand over it

i noted in parliment question/time..sloppy-joe really went off his nutt..[so to speak]..yesterday..he would appear to be well conected to his treasury liason guy...he thanked by name..publicly in parliment..back in 2002

also noted turncoats...very..precice statement that the email ORIGONATED in treasury..[and his insistance that no liberalie leaked on the carpet..[of course not the treasury dude may..have..[or his handler]..media?

its not hard to see how the same smooth talk..turncoat used on the pm's guy on wed...was used on the treasury dude...your a young guy come clean...you can go far feeding us info...ps you want to run the fed...just keep feeding us the info

[strong motivation to fake up an email..[that turnbull into votes must have known..[or sought to know about]..on wed night]..

its a only a matter of linking the times together,..and only the fed police can do that..interesting joe and mal-con..both SAY they will cooperate fully with the afp..[yet refuse to confirm thier handler..to the insider treasury stooge]...

there must be one..[to have gotten that fake email/to the senet hearing..[from the treasury dudes computer to the senet dude]...if the police dont sort this out..are they on a turncoat promise as well?..oh well time will tell

Early start 3 hour trip over the mountains but must get in here first.
We will hear more this is the end of Turnbull maybe Hockey and more.
A test look at the press from 1975,74 read the untruths.
SEE? its conservative practice.
Now lets not hide our head under the blanket, my party provided that ammunition to them back then.
But remember the dept truck?
Johny short bottoms free truck?
This is a huge fraud, nearly as big as Turnbull him self.
Read the issues storys in todays Australian.
Read your papers.
read the birth place of much of this the Sydney daily Tele, see its muteness on this subject.
I love it!
when very young I saw many rabbits trapped but never one in a trap they set them selves.

Belly et al,

While you are busy gloating, you forget that if the email had proven to be genuine, it would effectively have effectively ended Rudd's political career, and Rudd's resignation would be the very least it warranted, probably followed by criminal prosecutions.

Turnbull reaction was based on testimony to senate by a treasury official, and given the serious implications of the testimony, Turnbull could not have been expected to react any other way.

The author and purpose behind the fake email needs to be found.

In the interim, Grant has still won a gov tender with no apparent reason other than he is labor supporter. The expression "no smoke with out a fire" is appropriate.

All it shows is that Rudd was not stupid enough to leave a paper trail. It took undercover agents to bring down the corrupt Wollongong labor council for the same reason.

Yes...it is all unravelling for the Turnbull protestation of his role as a righteous observer of the events unfolding. Turnbull's link to the Treasury's Uriah-Heep (Dickens, not the band)-in-a-suit is not as innocent as first claimed. The Age now reports that the Liberals admitted knowing Grech's evidence before the Senate hearing on Friday. QED.They knew where they were going when they pulled Grech into the hearing.

Grech cuts a wretched figure now. For those who know the Senior Executive Service levels, it is evident that he has risen briefly, fallen and moved sideways. If you work very hard (as he is reported to do), have at least minimal cerebral funcion and you can't hold a FAS position, something is wrong.

No doubt Grech gained some heady sense of power by leaking confidential information to the Conservatives. That has to be the end of his career. Just as we criticise Government for politicising the Public Service, so must we not accept public servants taking political sides and breaching confidentiality.

Apart from the moral aspect, it has caused the diversion from other important policy debate.

Shadow Minister,

"...........if the email had proven to be genuine, it would effectively have effectively ended Rudd's political career, and Rudd's resignation would be the very least it warranted, probably followed by criminal prosecutions."

What if the origin of the bogus email wasn't found? Wouldn't that have resulted in a gross miscarriage of justice and an assault on our democracy? What next - an armed coup?

If Grech was a Liberal mole working from inside the Treasury (as suspected) and Abetz had previous knowledge of the contents of the email then the method and motives behind this fiasco become interesting.

There should be criminal prosecutions resulting from this but I don't think they will be from the Government.

PUBLIC SERVICE ACT 1999 - SECT 13
The APS Code of Conduct
(6) An APS employee must maintain appropriate confidentiality about dealings that the employee has with any Minister or Minister's member of staff.
10) An APS employee must not make improper use of:
(a) inside information; or
(b) the employee's duties, status, power or authority;
in order to gain, or seek to gain, a benefit or advantage for the employee or for any other person.

Although it's not illegal to RECEIVE leaks, I can't believe that Grech (or someone else) contrived and concocted this independently. The Libs have a track record of this sort of stunt.

Forgery is a whole new level of conspiracy and I don't think even the most devout Liberal sympathiser would take the whole rap for this.

Interesting times ahead.

Shadow Minister et al,
Not that I care for either party. This issue is a storm in a tea cup. Sure the principal is there but what a trivial piece of grubby politics.

Mean while the real issues stall for what? To tarnish Rudd's image?
They say misery (add morally dubious or idea bereft) loves company. i.e. If they can't outshine (with good policies) someone they bring Rudd/Labor down to their level(by fair means or foul. I seem to remember the policies of self interest and economic laisse fare mates (big business)was beaten at the last election?

Perhaps I've missed something but it was the the lack of control/greed that got this world into its current mess.

Perhaps I've got a future seeking TV I remember this current dirty politics campaign started well before knowledge of the email came out....or was there a treasury leak? Show us what tipped the Libs off on this track?

Time will tell where that email came from. In the meantime BOTH parties should get on with running the country with good ideas. Not tired ideologies or counter productive childish tactics and gamesmanship. In short they should grow up and earn their money properly.

It seems to have slipped memory that there has been 30 years of hung parliaments. one should ask why? I submit that it's the public sending a message that they trust neither side and their same ol same ol. Maybe another 30 years might convince both parties that we the public expect/demand better.....Then again I'm allegedly an optimist

There seems to be an assumption that Mr Gretz originated that email.
That has not been stated anywhere as far as I know.
It was apparently sent to his home email address from a computer in
the Treasury Dept.

I suspect that the prime minister may have started the whole thing
verbally so as not to leave a trail and Wayne Swann was left carrying
the can.
It would seem that someone with access to the treasury computer system
sent the email and if the terminal was identified to be in the office
then it has to be someone with physical access to the building.
So that would narrow the search.
That I presume is what the police are doing now.

It still seems to me that the request to play favorites annoyed
somebody in treasury and they blew the whistle.
What may be illegal is using the name of someone else in a ficticious
email not the actual whistle blowing.

Rache and Bazz,

If you read my post and the news articles the furore did not arise from the email, but from the evidence of Mr Gretz in the senate. Turnbull never claimed at any point to have a copy of the email. There was no leak of the email, and reporting to the senate is not considered to be breaking the confidentiality, so quoting the act is not relevant. The gov minder on Gretz ensured that no further information damaging to labor came out.

As for leaks, the labor goverments have just as bad a record as the libs, so much so that budget news was deliberately available long before it was officially released, and is almost considered standard practise. i.e. some leaks are good (authorised) and some bad (unauthorised).

shadow minester makes the point of IF[the email were genuine]WELL IT WASNT...also no-one is saYING IF THE SERVANT THAT TESTIFIED really vaguely on friday...couldnt recall the email HE HAD JUST RECIEVED

[we can presume]as the public service in the treasury dont work weekends...[again the timming of..WHEN the treasury dude..GOT the email at home..becomes important...a matter of deliberated fraud[regardless of who sent/wrote it]him having a 'vague recall of the email [if he got it before friday also becomes suspect]

clearly there is deliberated TREASON perputated here top unseat a sitting pm...why people with anon id's are posting in defense of this opends a potential can of worms...i dont for a second thing sloppy/joe is the shadow minester..

[BUT WHAT IF HE WERE]...we are not our id's,..but the opinions we post are going public..defending the indefensable..[and destracting from the colluded treasons this incident has revealed]..is a high crime[its time the issue became fully exposed]...

not by the fishing expidition's/distractions of turnbull and co..[nor the distant commision of inquiry, let the truth be known NOW..[in real time..be revealed by the police...forget prosicutions and confidences..WE JUST WANT THE FACTS revealed..now

here we have deliberated and colluded deception..by minour officials/seniour polititions..[to the media AND to govt[parlement]...things dont get much bigger than lying under parlement protections..

[how come krudds mate..isnt suing in civil court..for that turncoat'hockey and others have been saying in the media

I say it not for the first time or the second shadow minister sounds like Hockey to me.
It is quite ok by me, if you wish to say the e mail did not start this. If you say the senate testimony did, but quote the full testimony.
The I could be wrong, the plain to see fear and shaken speech, every answer.
Explain to us why Hockey rang him, how many times?
Was greic in fact bullied not by Labor but Turnbull?
We will know soon.
Tell us, please of the contract awarded to the car salesman.
tell us please as NO LOAN was given not one cent changed hands to this Mate? of Rudds so what crime has been commited?
Yes it is a storm in a tea cup, not worth the effort, unless you let the light of reality get in.
Without doubt, surely none, Turnbull went too far, may have had a hand in getting the e mail sent, or not checked it out, for the sum of zero dollars he said a favor had been done by PM and Swan.
To hide his own guilt, he trys to get the treasurer still, he must, his only chance is to take our eyes away from him.
is creic a long term supplier of leaks to him? or his party?
If Liberals try to aviod the painful task ahead of them, rebuilding their party with new leadership new policys they entrench them selves and those who support them in the black hole Turnbull continues to dig.
I invite each poster here to take an honest look at their posts this time next month.
In fact now too, I am proudly willing to hold myself accountable for my every word.
I recommend some contemplation for conservatives, do you just want your party to rule or do it well and with honesty.
Never ever could I trust Turnbul or Hockey now, abbott? well few did ever.
Costello all is forgiven bloke change your mind come back your party needs help and now.

Too late Shadow Minister,

It seems that that not only did the Libs believe that the email existed but Abetz (for one) was virtually quoting from it during that Senate hearing - before it was printed in the papers – and Turnbull had already referred to it during that Andrew Charlton incident days before - so somebody in the Opposition must have seen a copy.

How did the media get a hold of the copy they printed?

The questioning of Grech was a contrived farce, given what Abetz must have already known about the email and Grech’s long-term relationship with certain Opposition members.

The breaking of confidentiality I was referring to was not what was said at the Senate enquiry but the leaking of confidential Departmental information to anyone, let alone directly to Opposition Ministers. Somebody within the Treasury is believed to have used their position to deliberately manufacture the fake email for a specific political purpose - nothing at all like an information leak to the media.

The Government has the prerogative to “leak” information to the media for political purposes but the Public Service is not there to to be used for overt political purposes - or would it be OK for Rudd to use ASIO to spy on members of the opposition for example?

There was no “night of the long-knives” undertaken by Rudd to purge the Public Service of all the Howard sympathetic appointees after the election as usually happens after any change of government. There may be one carried out when the dust from this affair settles.

If Gretch is found to be complicit in using his position to fabricate documents from within the Treasury Department and giving them to members of the Opposition for them to use for political gain (to undermine or topple the elected government), it’s a rather serious matter. Under British law, performing such acts against the Sovereign would be defined as treason.

Anyway, the genie is out of the bottle now and we all have to ride it out to the end.

Reading the press again this morning, all of it.
The muted almost hidden story in the Sydney Tele is worth a read.
It seems to say Turnbull spoke to Grech after his evidence maybe before it, and that he and another read the false document in front of him.
Already my advice some who post here looks to be good advice, just a few have left the field of battle, this thread.
A more reputable retreat would have been better, see good government is my wish for my mob.
A smoke screen hangs over the true crime of this other side to government.
That crime is refusal to let an elected government govern.
And weak cowardly refusal to vote on climate change or even debate it.
Long after we are dust, in Turnbulls case he already is a past leader, others will know this opersition has not leader no policys and no direction.
Having lost an election they have not come to terms with they wallowed in the mud and are trying to look suprised it sticks only to them.
The Mark Latham thing is so true, I never ever thought I would see a man in the house who was of so little worth again.
I have and he is Latham like its Turnbullo

The two things that Turnbull reacted to were:

1 The suspicious awarding of tenders to mates of labor MPs
2 Apparent documentry evidence of this in the form of a email.

The question that labor and treasury has not answered is:

What qualifications does a struggling car dealer have over and above the hundreds of other dealers to win gov tenders other than greasing the palm of the labor party?

I don't know if Ford Finance lends to other than Ford dealers, but
Mr Grant is a Kia dealer it is said.

A big noise has been made that Mr Grant got no finance which is not
surprising as the bill has not finished in parliament yet.
I think no one will want to talk to him now.

I would love to see the expanded headers on that email.
Not that the ip addresses would mean much to me.
I wonder if the person who sent it wore gloves and a face mask to hide DNA.
Too late now of course.

we all know the political game..is about arms-length/payback..to their true masters,..but the issue isnt here about someone getting rollsroyce service,..yet no money at the end of this..'special treatment;;..its about decieving parliment..

[about claiming and colluding into egsistance a FAKE email..that in the end seems very suss]

remember..the linkage..to a treasury/official..[to an email created in the treasury,..used by the opposition,..who only 2 days before had a..''friendly'..talk..with an official/..latter accorded the auther ship..[of a FAKE email]...in a mockup..printed as fact..by the decieved/decieving media

seems to/..line up a few people..to be in the know..[or think to know,..then..making up an email...to fit their PRESUMED knowledge...

turnbull clearly thought..he was accosting the auther..the supposed sender..of the fake/mockup..printed in the news-papers..3 days later

anyhow the facts..arnt supporting their proposition's..[but having their colusions exposed..they are trying franticly/to insist on their origonal flawed position..to avoid any discussion/about the FAKED email..as well as the long list of exposures..BASED ON A LIE

one would be blind-freddy..not to notice..the timming..[of the censure call]..by turnbull/in parliment yesterday..[the second the treasuror started to create the linkage..to the treasury dude..turnbull lept to his feet/and began the censure motion

[that was then read on air[three times]..while various votes to defeat it..took up the rest of question time...not once mentioning the timming of the censure..[or the treasurors words..preceeding it..

[plus..the treasuor/never got to finish his reply..that was sounding an interesting joining..of the knowable knowns..,known at this time..

to say the least the hindsite of events..reveal a suss-pitious picture[that must be exposed/lanced..as fast as possable..[not 6 mths away..after a possable double/disolution..

[the clear intent of the opposition..seeking to send off the issues/judgment day..to a better/future time..[by which time the only witness..may..conveniantly have commited some sacrificial act

the arrousal..of joe hockey stiche..rising in indignant fury..was also impossable to miss..[this clearly indicates/he is terified of something unknown..soon becomming known..[possably his linkages to the treasury dude]..but who knows..

one party wishes it all..to just go away to another day..[and maybe both/..we shall see wont we..but the weight of evidence..is a clear fraud..[with ill intente..has taken place..[the boil must be burst now]..this session/..today

Dear Belly,

I fully agree with your last post.

The biggest crime the Libs have done is
to not let an elected Government govern -
blocking them every step of the way - and
this latest 'diversion,' of theirs is the
final straw. They and their chosen Leader
have lost all credibility.

The mud they
were slinging - has now stuck to them.

Turnbull as a Party Leader - has turned out to
be - not the eagle that people thought he was,
but a common sparrow.

Shadow Minster, once more please, tell me what government contract this man got.
Tellus Bazz and SM why Turnbull and one wast of air for the first time I know of in history barred a senate inquiry?
Why has Turnbull hinted he may not fully cooperate with the federal police inquiry?
What is wrong with a local business man going to a Rudd benefit in 2002?
Or buying an item there?
Should all business men be barred from getting help from local members?
To most, yes most voters understand now, the continuing insults from Turnbull,s gang is a smoke screen.
Conservatives alone fear an open inquiry, if one takes place they are lost.
Watch the polls, make up your minds but Turnbull could buy every raffle ticket and still not win.
He has to do far more than convince his blind followers its middle of the road ex Liberal voters who are sickened by his miss manegment of their once proud party.
Bring back Costello, steady your ship or select a deck chair on your titanic and await the coming ice berg, voters who can see and think past the lies mud and fear tactics.
Past the we have no intention of letting the govern one and only other policy.

I like that Bazz do you think faxs transmit DNA or do you think the one Turnbull and Hockey got from Grech may have been the first pre transmittion fax?
Rest easy Turnbull has no intention of letting us know the whole truth.
He puts many questions and answers few

This ute debarcle has to easily be, without doubt, the most utterly boring piece of political BS and spin I have ever had the misfortune to have to hear and see day after day. Who cares? For God's sake talk about something worthwhile like; 'hello' running the country!

That word, HELLO, signals to me the person useing it has nothing to say worth listening to.
In this case says in headlines I do not understand the issue.
Shouts it is all too hard for me change the channel cartoons are on.
Yes its child like ,its boring, its not what we elect them to do.
Its gutter tactics, unparlimentry, idoitic much more.
But its all happening , in our head office our government.
Do we turn our backs?
Do we see whats on TV?
Or do we seek to understand the issues?
I want to know why we saw the senate crippled by independent senator who seems lost.
A man who needs to chain his dog up , if it leaves home the average IQ in his house may drop 20 points.
I need to know why Turnbulls team, the ones saying the senate inquiry would not allow Grech to talk will not allow that day to be investigated.
I want to know why Turnbulls crew did not wish to debate climate change, why they think uninvited migrants should pay to be imprisoned, even if we have got much from this ?
I care about my countrys future, want my party to be better, think in honest unbiased ways at worst Rudd should park the old rusty bucket back in its owners shed.
But that EVERY member of the house should not take such favors.
Swan has little to answer for no cash changed hands lets be honest would you ring on behalf of a mate?
Would it be wrong? shadow minist why will you not answer, are you being honest?
can any of us execpt lies instead of policys.
Why post in a thread you dislike, is it another way to insult free speech.
Would you post if Turnbull had won the fight rather than got into the wrong ring?
He is not born to rule he defames his own party by his actions.
the thought we should not closely look at issues like this, hold both sides accountable for their actions is mentally lazy behavior

Transcript of a telephone conversation leaked by an insider :

SWAN: Bel-ly, Bel-ly, Bel-ly, hoooow ya going old mate?---Wayne Swan here.
BELLY: Swannnnny… is that reeeally you? (Belly does a sign-of-the-cross & genuflects to the phone).
SWAN: Yes, it’s me …leastways… it feels like me ( he takes his hand out of his trousers pocket… and his eyes uncross).Belly the party’s been following your advocacy on OLO… won-der-ful job mate! The party has asked me to come up something to show our appreciation.
BELLY: Shucks Swanny! that’s not necessary …I’d sell my house & dog (Belly chuckles to himself) and, even my clapped-out old ute to …
SWAN: (cutting in) Belly! did you say ‘old ute’ ? act-ual-ly mate…(he looks around to ensure no ones listening, then cups his hand to the mouth piece & whispers ) have I got a deal for you, I have this mate…

"That crime is refusal to let an elected government govern."

Belly did you oppose Labor whenever they went against the previous government? If it's a crime to not let an elected government govern then you should have.

I'm of the view that a government should be allowed to run with any policies which were clearly put to the electorate before or during an election (GST was, workchoices was not) but that any measures which were not put to the electorate or where the implementation is substantially different the opposition/minor parties should be able to oppose to their hearts content.

It gets trickier when their are major situational changes after the election. The GFC was not in full swing when Labor was elected federally so I expect Labor to be able to implement major items that were not part of the election platform. There is a balance in that, the electorate has not had a chance to vote on who the direction the government is taking us, both parties when to the election promising fiscally conservative policies, low debt etc. That may not be the best solution right now but it should be kept in mind that was the position which was put to voters.

Very little has really changed in Qld since the state election so the massive shift in policy here can quite legitimately be challenged.

R0bert

Ahhh Belly, I will indeed answer your questions;
>Why has Turnbull hinted he may not fully cooperate with the federal police inquiry?

You do not listen to what is said closely enough.
He said he would give the police all the co-operation they needed to
in their investigation into the dud email.
That does not mean they can trawl through all other documents.
Parliamentary privilege is more important than this email.

>What is wrong with a local business man going to a Rudd benefit in
>2002? Or buying an item there?
Absolutely not, no one said they should not.

>To most, yes most voters understand now, the continuing insults from
>Turnbull,s gang is a smoke screen.

For what ?

>I like that Bazz do you think faxs transmit DNA or do you think the
>one Turnbull and Hockey got from Grech may have been the first
>pretransmittion fax?

Belly, have a look on your preferences or whatever on your email
program and there is an option to display all headers.
There is very much more expanded headers than just to and from.
They display routing information and that is probably how the police
know that the email is a forgery and exactly what terminal in
treasury dept it was sent from.
Knowing that info the police could dust the terminal for fingerprints
and look for DNA from the users breath and fingers.
So it was not such a silly remark from me was it ?

As I said some one was probably using the terminal for days before the
police were involved so it would be too late now.
I can't imagine anyone would be stupid enough to use their own terminal.

its funny how some would love to see the issue die ..but did malcontent turnbull into votes let the issue die..[has the attack on swan died..have we even discussed the issue in its completness?,..no not at all

[how about turn bull..giving 10 million to his cloud seeding mate?[against party recomendations..[when malocon's mate was only after 2 million,..malcon gives him 10 million..way to go mate

would malcon stop the attack..no way..[he has been running this attack..based on a lie for at least two weeks..[any wonder the liberat-chicks wish it to go away after just 5 days..cant take the heat in the kitchen...

about the only thing the libs have got right..is the global warming thing..[noting even the hollowcaust carbon tax lobby..is converting this thread even..into their one way debate..[as if the 50 global warning/cooling climate changing tax topic's..on this forum arnt enough

one measilly topic..on malcon turncoat is not enough..you want the debate to end..then leave the debate..the same as others do when they think ..oh cccrap not another global tax topic

[the stupid sports rape episode..is still going..[thats the things about blogs..we need to expose the real facts..despite some liberat-chicks wanting the topic closed...what about turncoats hih links or sleighman bros...

the labourites sure havnt got the bloggers the liberat..chicks have,..where is the stick to it mal-con revealed

To Belly,
I find your comment about my "hello" quite rude not to mention just a little annoying. I was not making the post that I found the ute issue boring, as a put down to your posts. I simply find the whole ute issue unutterably boring and would rather watch paint dry.

You seemed to take it personally and in return have been been insulting, when all I was doing was making a point about the 'whole' political debacle.

There has obviously been a conspiracy by turnbull, abetz and the corrupt public servant grech (at the very least) to defame and destroy the pm. Even to the extent of fabricating documents and coaching grech on what to say at his senate appearance. What did hockey say to grech when he rang him the day after his senate testimony? I bet it was more conspiracy and cover up.

This is totally unethical, immoral and probably illegal. Turdbull and his front bench should all resign or better yet be charged and jailed. Typical born to rule toffee nosed scum who think they are better than the rest of us and are so affronted that we had the hide to vote their sorry asses out that they will do and say anything to get back into power.

one more point
What actually did mr grant receive from the government or anyone else for that matter? Oh thats right NOTHING ziltch nada nil. I suggest all of you idiots still going on about this just stfu before you too look like mr turdbull with the poo on his chin.

Mikk,
The reason no car dealer got any credit was because the
legislation is/was still in parliament. It is not yet in operation.
When you accuse people you need to not include obviously wrong
information as it reflects badly on other things that you say.
Don't let your politics get in the way.

Certainly someone in treasury sent that email but until we know
more we might be suspicious but I find it hard to believe that
all three you are accusing were not aware of the trace ability of emails.
Just remember Turnbull and Ozemail. He would have had expert advice
available if he wanted to spoof an email. If he had wanted to spoof it
and it was possible it would look like it came out of the PM's office.
Not easy to do it from a site like the treasury as it would have top
of the line security. No I think we can all be satisfied that someone
either went into the building to send it or was working in there
anyway. I am sure if Turnbull or Hockey went in there they would have
security people with them. They would not have been allowed to go
roaming around the building.
Their security system would know who was in the building at the time
it was sent. Did the published email have a date/time stamp ?

No more, I have only posted because I don't want any more notifications. I see the whole world is going crazy over a pop singing, pedophile, rather than what seems to be a very nice lady who was a good actress.

interesting to note turnbull's links to goldman/sacs

i wonder if the article quoted in the scribed box might be adding to the rhodes scolarse..discomforture..this past week

its explosive stuff

http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/06/goldman-sachs-engineering-every-major.html
Wednesday, June 24, 2009
Goldman Sachs: "Engineering Every Major Market Manipulation Since The Great Depression"

Posted by Tyler Durden at 2:58 PM
With a subtitle like "From tech stocks to high gas prices, Goldman Sachs has engineered every major market manipulation since the Great Depression

and they're about to do it again"

run,..don't walk,to your nearest kiosk and buy Matt Taibbi's latest piece in Rolling Stone magazine.

One of the best comprehensive profiles of Government Sachs done to date...

Speaking of GS,they sure must be busy today,..now that Bernanke is about to be impeached and take the fall..for all their machinations.

"When you accuse people you need to not include obviously wrong
information as it reflects badly on other things that you say.
Don't let your politics get in the way."

ROFL
Tell that to malcolm.

RaeBee let me be clear I do not value hello and such as comment.
Look at the term, is it not rude? isnt it saying wake up! think as I do?
Now RObert we live on different sides of the fence, Bazz I once thought was on my side but up the other end.
Yes Labor used the senate as a Berlin wall, much of what it would not pass is now law.
But did they EVER refuse a senate priveldges commitee?
Howard put his fences around free debate, we never had a chane to hear the full story about the AWB scandal, his refusal to open the inquiry stopped that.
Swan? BAZZ mate, he is a member of my union, but not bullet proof, he is not one of my stars not always right but here he has committed no crime.
Maybe he needs to do better but surely Grechs ties to some high profile members of your party and the resulting actions are close to crime?
We Bazz will know yes we will, far more this time next month, le me asure you if Turnbull survives it will be because his party has not yet found a replacement.
Finally who has taken to the dead meat within his/her own party as much as I have?
Rees is without doubt the biggest failure in my partys state history, right up there with Latham.
And the lost legions who think Frank Sartor is the answer amuse me.
In the months to come no white wash can cover the fact this scandal is the biggest own goal in conservative history

While the thread will stall, fade away and be forgotten the issue will not.
We should be aware of the medias different slant on it but understand it can yet be the biggest scandal in a few years.
Not many years we will not get past children overboard AWB, and too many Howard years things that bought concerns.
We no it will be history, who looks at media storys with suprise in the future.
Those who broke this story, it is said after Turnbull rang them, have changed track, done the Ostrich, put heads in sand.
Others have changed sides the Australians storys are pro Rudd.
But that future day that judges this will also have information only some of us understand now.
While I wait for shadow minister to put flesh on the bones of the claim the car dealer has won a governent contract.
I enter in to evidence the execpted claim Grech has for some time been an informant for the Liberals.
And that Turbnull and maybe that senate member who so strongly questioned him spoke to him before that inquiry.
yes history will know much more than us.
Yes its petty but it is a matter of honest government put your worse case together, be honest if you find Swam guilty of anything, surely the emerging crime if only acting stupidly [and its far worse] of Turnbull is many times worse.

Well this mornings headline will not go away.
Those who jumped to the defence of the coalition should ask themselves was that right?
Politics is a game of numbers, it always will be.
You can indeed fool some of the people some of the time.
But those fooled by this non issue are more likely than not those who are all-ready in the conservative camp.
How did it help conservatives?
It may be the very thing that in time takes them back to office strong and reborn.
It is my view John Howard took them away from their roots.
And the election loss hurt so much they have acted more like spoilt school kids than an opposition.
Turnbull, gee I was so wrong, is not the right man, he never will be.
In time who ever takes over from him, will be replaced by the Right man ,or grow into that person.
policy's will again drive them, just maybe earlier suggestions I made here will come to pass in August.
Bills passed not shunted to a dead end , amendments but passed.
How good is the refusal to even look at emissions now America has passed its laws.
Read our posts again mine yours others tell me who lost this fight?
Maybe it was worth it if conservatives can learn from it.

we shall see if he becomes a flipp/flopper..on the carbon tax..lets at least call it what it is[its a NEW global tax going straight to big business...

[put money on him becomming a greenie..[ie a flip/flopper]..[so his leighman/sax.. former?..em-ploy-ers..can clean up bnig time on the carbon derivitive..the new[neo]..big business franchise ..business being the only recipiant of this tax cow..

[huge bucks/credit]..to/for big business caqrtels trading in derivitives..needing their next bubble..[read the link]..

seems the main 'derivitive' of this new global tax..is tax payer's bucks feeding the credit..straight into big business's carbon trading trading floor...feeding the need for permant tax payer subsidy to the big business/green/greed..bonus scemes]

govt gifts the free credits to poluters..poluters sell them on to the leighman franchise/banking cartel derivitives traders..to bail out the ecomony till the end of time...

turn bull into money will be going for that one...thus he becomes a head/strong/fip/flopper in the same ilk of that other rhodes scollar midget..that sold us out..[and our bank]..last time..[the pants man in budgies]that gave us the repression we have to have

[so the elites can be faulse godheads..lording it over us that cant get generouse pension subsidies..and upper class education/health services...

nor share holder benifits/discounts/votes..normsally due to sharholders..but even that benifit goes to the big business cross share holding OUR SHARES..[despite]..our super..holding the promise for shares..[reportedly]...yet getting vnot one of its benifits

but who cares right

I wrote;
"When you accuse people you need to not include obviously wrong
information as it reflects badly on other things that you say.
Don't let your politics get in the way."

ROFL
Tell that to malcolm.
Posted by mikk, Saturday, 27 June 2009 1:14:32 AM

Ahh well Mikk, the information was not wrong just forged.
There is a difference.
I hope it means that in the future no one will quote emails without
having an electronic copy so they can see all the headers.
Although I suppose they could be forged as well.
In any case it was evidence in the senate inquiry that was quoted.
So while ROFL Mikk remember he who laughs last ---

Belly;
>some high profile members of your party
Who's party ?

Belly;
>While I wait for shadow minister to put flesh on the bones of the
>claim the car dealer has won a governent contract.

Moderator !
It might be better if the site is shut down until the server error
is fixed.

I don't think you understand what this is all about.
It is not about a contract it is about obtaining finance to pay for
vehicle stock on the floor of his showroom.
It was about Grant's name being put up to Ford Finance in a meeting
where Ford Finance was asking for a $500 million guarantee to
enable them to finance car stock.
Surely you can see how improper that was ?
It was as good as saying, we will let you have the $500 Million if
you see to Mr Grant's request. Here is his phone number.
How else was Ford supposed to understand it ?

If we are going to argue about these things lets argue about the
real matter not some imagined matter.

Bazz thanks, take your feet both of them out of your mouth.
I understand the issue, shadow minister however said that man had won a government contract.
Clearly inferring some thing other than the loan, other than any thing else in Ute gate.
Remember politics is a numbers game, while you defend one side I need only follow those numbers to defend mine.
It,s ok to get your supporters into a lather, but in this case it drove the very people Turnbull needed away, in droves.
now again put that contract into words SM prove it.
Bazz your understanding is doubtful if you can not see what Turnbulls party clearly does he acted unwisely, wrong and scored a few own goals.
no about the posting problem.
We just maybe could contribute to fixing it?
In August bills thought to be stalled forever will begin to pass why?
Turnbulls actions leave no other sane path for conservatives.
and watch Turnbull he can not lead for long he has lost that chance.

ok the thread is over but not without this post.
Shadow Minister you as I posted last night could be seen to be on line and in the forum.
4 times now I have asked you to tell me what government contract has been awards to Mr Ute gate car sales man.
Twice you have said he got such a contract.
WHY not tell me?
Honesty that is a must in politics, yes I think you are if not a parliamentarian a Liberal .
And without reserve I think your remark stands to be untrue, will you answer the question?
or was it another smear, untrue and targeted at mud sticks so lets throw it, the tactic most used in the last few months.

Belly,
It’s all very simple --there are two types:those who seek near immediate gratification –and have the attention span of a colosseum crowd – and those who take a longer term perspective.

The first group includes most of those left of centre–which by default means most of our media figures –they're quick to count-out any person or any project that does not provide a bang within the first few months.

Such people are particularly impressed by – all smoke and no fire gestures – the apology, signing up to the Kyoto Protocol and 2020 summits.

The other group, look a little further afield and think –what happens when the money runs out & the debt collector comes a calling – and Rudd & co can no longer afford those circus’s & tricks…what then will the opinion polls show?

PS: If you want a quick answer, ask Gough.

Horus I will give you the answer now.
Hang around Turnbull can never win an election not ever.
Those who you call left of centre needed votes very much from your side of the fence to unseat Howard.
They got them and with the help of an negative opposition will retain them for 2 more elections.
It is hard, very very hard to take front on the understanding your party has not got its act together.
I have had to carry that burden with Simon Crean and please never again Mark Latham.
I carry it now with my once proud NSW centre unity group.
But you Horus, no matter how hard you try must soon confront the fact, Turnbull and a few have tracked your party up that creek.
Find a leader find one soon, lets not bother looking on your front bench, we need policy's not mud from conservatives.
We have plenty of time, conservatives WILL back down and pass bills they dare not face the electorate, left right or centre voters are not mugs.

Belly,

At the rate Labor is ditching its election promises, I reckon it’s only a matter of time…
that’s probably why Wayne & his mates are making the most of the lurks and perks, while they can.

Your mob won Bennelong by the skin-of-your-teeth, and that was after marshalling all the forces of --negativity-- they could beg borrow or bribe. Your marionette, McKew, is not likely to maintain the stage show next time around –you may recall that the last local election in that area saw the labor candidate defeated by a record breaking margin.

Strangely enough Belly , for all his personality faults, I have a certain respect for Mark Latham. He is one of the few--thinkers--the Labor Party has produced in recent years.It is telling to see his former colleague, Anthony Albanese, slander him in parliament for the sake of short term political point scoring –so much for the much vaunted mateship of the party

Horus I never pee in anyones pocket, but I respect you,we clash, we must you clearly are conservative I very clearly am not.
I see in your posts here, the last two the very guts of why I never could be a conservative.
See no way I am stirring you, I think you are not capable of seeing the truth.
Turnbull lost the fight, he lost it long before ute gate, he he lost his leadership, because of people in his party like you.
Clutching at straws, Labors broken promises is not policy construction, your side, rightly so, said the grocery site was a mistake.
IT was! so let it die wrong promises that do nothing should be killed.
Now hospitals, yes an inversigation has been called, a report how do we handle this, its not yet a broken promise is it?
To explore the possible costs and answers is wise not foolish.
Turnbull, ego and all was the right man for the job, look at idiots like Abbott and Pyne[ I was so wrong about him]
Only the rude dude big Joe Hockey looks any chance to do it well.
But your born to rule party would not let him [Turnbull] lead.
You say the media is left leaning?
Gee Horus you can do better than that!
no way, they clearly are in your camp not mine.
The Australian and all owned by that bloke took Turnbulls side, untill it was clear he was wrong.
as it ended most balance is the Australian.
But the Turnbulls lauch pad for utegate is that Sydney comic book once a great paper hiding its head right now.
Let your party breath, find a reason to put the rude dude in charge,review all bills make changes but pass them.
Let the dust settle rebuild my mob can not rule forever but if you continue to help us, maybe we can.

Gday shadow minister, I see you are in the forum as I post this.
May I ask you to highlight, well inform me, just what government contract did Mr utegate get?
Your answer s much awaited regards

I am not going to get that answer am I?
Future readers of this thread [ it maybe be in ten years] may find reason to share my concerns.
It seems apparent no contract at all has been won by the Queensland care dealer mentioned.
He gained nothing not one cent.
And polling shows 70% support for Rudd.
Worth noting, Turnbull has indeed sought refuge from his own storm, in Afghanistan!
Wonder if he met any future boat people coming in the opposite direction.
As I said up the thread policy's far out number the benefits of lies and mud throwing.
And yes, already conservatives are working to pass legislation next month, after all at any cost, they must avoid an election.
The senate enquiry we will not have is not just a shame, its scandalise!
But while the unwise poor lost sole Fielding can be blamed we should remember only because the conservatives, the party calling on Rudd for full disclosure, in the end did not want just that.
Look back at some posts in this thread.
I stand by my every one.
Some? no way they can say those few words, I was had, I got it wrong, but I said it for them up the page.
Politics is far too important to let script writers point us in ways that are not true.

Belly, you have missed the point.
The request by Swan to have the request for a line of credit be put
to Ford Finance at the meeting where Ford Finance was asking for
a line of credit for $550 million is what is improper.

What was Ford supposed to think ?
Obviously they had better agree and ring straight after the meeting so
that when they check, Grant can say yes, Ford rang me.

Thats what is improper about it and that is what Swan lied about.

Bazz we have been here before it is you ,twice now who have missed the point.
I am fully aware of the charges and we both should know, well I do, Ford like Holden if they got the money would have used it to make profit.
And lend to ANY car yard.
I do not believe Swan did anything wrong.
my last few posts as I Reminded you earlyer, are a request for shadow minister to prove he/she told the truth, doubtful I will get an answer.

Then Belly mate, why can't you see the impropriety of what happened ?

Bazz lets be frank, lets be honest totally me first ok?
While my last few are aimed at shadow minister, getting him to prove or remove an untrue statement.
Now back to Swan, he in putting that blokes name up acted unwisely, No in my view dishonestly.
And much in the fashion of Aussie mateship, something I do every day, using my influence to help a mate.
No have Fax's sent to his home is no crime no favour its just as I work.
I send work related e mails at 3 or 4 am in the morning, even onSundays.
Not a cent changed hands, tell me true mate, if you fronted your MP would it be wrong if he acted for you?
Do you think you could find one member on any side who has not helped such people?
Would your member be a good one not to act?
see the polls, understand we yet do not know just how much the e mail man leaked to your mob, and for how long.
I truly honestly think unwise is all Swan has to face.
Turnbull? I share his party's view he went far over board he acted far worse than unwisely he killed his own career in politics.
Look at the conservatives, it is in the best interests this country that they get their acts together.
ABBOTT? they say he will lead? no way!
It has to be the Rude Dude Hockey and soon.
no clap trap I think massively the wrong lays on your side of the house.
Now not just to show I am honest but because it must be said the sacking of that Hunter valley goose the ex minister for defence raised to average IQ front bench ten points.
Focus on him, fertile ground you can not plow concrete.