...Cont

Unless we are prepared to divorce the very formative school years from cultural imprinting occurring within a developing student are not we trying to impose a monoculturalism instead of our avowed multiculturalism?

Not that I have a problem with that since as KMB states acceptance of homosexuality, transgender, reconciliation, multiculturalism, and diversity are part of our public sector makeup, marking us in my opinion as a progressive egalitarian society. The experience of that diversity by a majority of us in a strong public educational system has to this date undoubtedly been an enabling factor.

If we feel that this is worth protecting and enhancing then a massive shift a funding away from the private and back to the public sector has to be our mantra. Continuing to grow and enhance a strong ‘Australian’ ethic is a far stronger argument in my opinion than decrying the evils of religious or moneyed private schools as a reason to withdraw funding.

More I could say but am about to loose my computer for the night.

Dear csteele,

You wrote: "I feel I am imposing on your good grace to continue this line of argument much further."

You state your points in a civil manner, cite facts to support your position, seem a person of good will and it is a matter on which we have strong and divergent feelings so we should continue the discussion.

I think there is both a genetic component and a cultural component to Jewish success in various fields. I believe the genetic component is due to two factors. One is antisemitism and the other is religion. Antisemitism has acted to promote natural selection. With pogroms, massacres, ghettoes and other activities against Jews brighter and stronger Jews had a better chance of survival. Jews have a greater disposition to diabetes than most other peoples. In a large part of our history most Jews did not have diets rich in sweets. Many of us still can't handle rich food. There is a mediaeval Christian story of devotion. A man was seen juggling balls in front of a statue of a virgin in a cathedral. He said that he wished to show his devotion to the virgin, and, as he was unlettered, this was the way he found to do it. That is profoundly non-Jewish. The normative Jewish idea in times past is that one shows devotion to God by learning. Maimonides, the Jewish state, said one worships God by using the divine mind he gave us to answer questions. For many years Catholic Europe has been taking their best and brightest young men into the priesthood. There they were expected to live a celibate life, and most of them did that. Their genes were removed from the Christian gene pool. In contrast the brightest and best of Jewish young men were encouraged to marry young, reproduce and were supported in a life of study.

Of course religion is part of culture, and I, by no means, mean to deny that. However, I don't believe it is a necessary part of culture.

continued

continued

You wrote: "I wondered at the idea that one could separate the Jewish culture and religion. You seem to celebrate the first but disparage the second. Is one “indoctrinated” into a culture?"

Religion in the past contributed to our formation as a people and our high regard for the life of the intellect. However, we are living in the present, and I believe that religion no longer serves the purposes that it served in the past. From the net:

"Haskalah (Hebrew: "enlightenment," "education" from sekhel "intellect", "mind"), the Jewish Enlightenment, was a movement among European Jews in the late 18th century that advocated adopting enlightenment values, pressing for better integration into European society, and increasing education in secular studies, Hebrew, and Jewish history. Haskalah in this sense marked the beginning of the wider engagement of European Jews with the secular world, ultimately resulting in the first Jewish political movements and the struggle for Jewish emancipation. The division of Ashkenazi Jewry into religious movements or denominations, especially in North America and anglophone countries, began historically as a reaction to Haskalah." End extract.

Present Jewish schools are in part a reaction to Haskalah. Some go against the ideas of integration into modern society and are a retreat into obscurantism. Some who promote Jewish religious schools are for the most part concerned with keeping Jewish children distinct from other children to lessen the chances for intermarriage and keep Jews as a separate group. The promotion of learning and scholarship, while still there, are not the prime considerations.

Although Jews have been moulded by the past our Nobel prize winners and scholars are those who have questioned that past and separated from it. Our prime example of Jewish intellect is Albert Einstein.

Although he was not conventionally religious he had the same attitude toward questioning that Maimonides had.

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school."

"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing."

it is heartening to see the boasting of the supiriour races[yes semites respect learning as an act of service to god[but semites include arabs]a point repeatedly avoided

its is well to know that the intelligent are required to breed young[hence we see in the tamud priest[sorry rabbies/teachers mating with children]

from
http://www.biblestudysite.com/factsarefacts.htm
I apologize..for the'language'which will appear'here-UNDER'

from The official unabridged..Soncino'Edition of the'Talmud'..published in 1935..quotations with footnotes from the Soncino Edition of the Talmud,(Book)

YEBAMOTH,60b."As R.Joshua,b.Levi related:`There was a certain town in the Land of Israel the legitimacy of whose inhabitants disputed,and Rabbi sent R.Ramanos who conducted an inquiry and..found in it the daughter of a'proselyte'....*who was under the age of three years..!and one day..,and Rabbi declared her eligible to live with a priest"

note..A proselyte under the age of three years and one day may be married by a priest...And was married to a priest.ie.,permitted to continue to live with her...'husband'!

SANHEDRIN,55b-55a...:"What is meant by this?..Rab said:Pederasty with a child below nine years of age..is not deemed as pederasty..with a child above that.

Samuel said:Pederasty with a child below three years is not treated as with a child above that.....55a)(he)who commits bestiality,whether naturally or unnaturally:...or a woman who causes herself to be beastially abused,....whether naturally or unnaturally,is liable to punishment."

(footnotes)"(1)The reference is to..the passive..'subject'/victim..of sodomy...As stated in supra[54a,guilt is incurred by the active participant even if the former be a minor;..i.e.,less than thirteen years old...

2)Rab makes nine years the minimum;..but if one committed sodomy with a child of lesser age,...no guilt is incurred..!...Samuel makes three the minimum...(There are thus three distinct clauses in this Baraitha.

why single out pederasty:..in all crimes of incest,..the'passive'adult does not incur'guilt'..unless the other'party'is at least nine years and a day?

Hence the Baraitha supports Rab's'contention'that nine years(and a day)is the minimum age of the...passive partner..for the adult to be liable."..

In'official-statement'made by Rabbi Morris N.Kertzer..that the Talmud"IS THE LEGAL CODE...WHICH FORMS THE BASIS OF JEWISH RELIGIOUS LAW..AND IT IS THE TEXTBOOK USED IN THE TRAINING OF RABBIS"...

we wont talk how education has been deliberatly..dumbed down for the gentiles..
http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/

Tourette Syndrome : "was once considered a rare and bizarre syndrome, most often associated with the exclamation of obscene words or socially inappropriate and derogatory remarks" now to be found on online forums.

Sigh

csteele wrote:

"Unless we are prepared to divorce the very formative school years from cultural imprinting occurring within a developing student are not we trying to impose a monoculturalism instead of our avowed multiculturalism?"

We differ on the definition of multiculturalism. I attended the Abrahamic Faiths Forum. It was a meeting of representatives of the Muslim, Christian and Jewish communities sponsored by the Queensland government. The president of the Independent Schools Association that is primarily religious chaired one session. I asked what programs there were to encourage contact between the students of one belief system and students with other belief systems. He told me there were none. Neither were there courses in comparative religion as far as he knew. I do not see isolated monocultures as making up a multicultural society. Multiculturalism to me means more than being imprinted with the cultural values of your subgroup. If it were, Jews in a ghetto surrounded by a Christian world could be cited as an example of multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism means to me that people have enough knowledge and appreciation for cultures other than their own to regard those outside their culture as human. Family, religious institutions and voluntary organisations imprint cultural values. If, in addition, we segregate children from the wider community in separate schools the isolation is almost complete. We have a patchwork of monocultures not multiculturalism.

The public schools cannot impose a monoculture since students and teachers usually have varied cultural backgrounds. That may not be the case in religious schools.

I acquired my Jewish culture while going to be public schools for my entire primary and secondary education. Jewish education was outside of school hours. Going to schools where the rest of the student body was mainly Christian was a good experience. I am aware of that world and its humanity. Isn’t that also valid for the Muslim community?

Jewish and Muslim children growing up in Australia are going to live in a society that is mainly non-Muslim and non-Jewish. Even if they grow up to be imams or rabbis they will have to deal with the wider community.