Cont

This was also played out in America where “the civil libertarians, supported by the American Jewish Congress and the majority of the Jewish communal leadership, argued for a much more radical interpretation” of the First Amendment contending that it “prohibited any kind of state funding of the operations of religious groups, such as parochial schools.”

To think that arguments over education had such profound implications for the Jewish people.

In 1930 a strict quota limited Jewish representation in senior tenured positions at Berlin University to less than 10% but over half of the junior nontenured positions were taken by Jews. I found this statistic startling when I first read it. As Berlin was part of the Protestant north as opposed to the Catholic south it may be somewhat understandable but it does go to show that anti-semiticism does wax and wane.

To the question of mono/multi culturalism; if my contention that the culture/religion/s of the Jewish people rather than an innate intelligence is the reason for their over representation in the higher fields is valid, then should society consider these things of such value that they be afforded some protection, even if it means allowing segregated schooling in those formative years? Perhaps compulsory comparative religious studies and interaction with students of other belief systems might be mandated to ensure students “have enough knowledge and appreciation for cultures other than their own to regard those outside their culture as human”. On the other hand if it is genetic factors that are responsible then there are few reasons for supporting continued segregation.

The elephant in the room is of course the role of wealth in obtaining superior educational outcomes. The greater aggregate wealth of the Jewish community allowing far greater access to private schooling as supported by the figures and thus as acknowledged by yourself giving an overrepresentation in securing university places probably needs to be recognised.

Norman Cantor would have it that I, in calling for proportional allocations by sector for publicly funded Australian university places, are in effect restricting “Jewish entry through prejudicial affirmative action”. Agreed?

Dear csteele,

You wrote:

"The elephant in the room is of course the role of wealth in obtaining superior educational outcomes. The greater aggregate wealth of the Jewish community allowing far greater access to private schooling as supported by the figures and thus as acknowledged by yourself giving an overrepresentation in securing university places probably needs to be recognised."

That contradicts your previous post:

"In the 1920s “The New York public school system did more than anything to provide assimilation and social mobility of the younger generation. The WASP and Irish teachers did not fail the Jews” but at the NY University “Jewish quota was a rigid fifteen percent”. Princeton was three percent, Harvard 15% and Columbia 25%.

However “By the mid-1970s about a third of the faculty in the humanities and social science departments of the top twenty-five universities were Jewish. Forty percent of the entering class at Yale Law School in 1974 was Jewish. A quarter of the undergraduate body of Harvard College by 1970 was Jewish, and forty percent at Columbia College.”"

What you wrote previously was correct. The Jewish success was obtained through their education in the public schools from the excellent WASP and Irish teachers. Due to that success they made more money. With more money some set up private Jewish schools in imitation of the gentiles who have set up elite schools funded by their religious groups.

I stated that students in private schools in Australia have a better chance of entering university. I don't have the statistics, but I think that the situation is just opposite for Jews. The reason it is just the opposite for Jews is that the more observant and/or religious Jews are more likely to set up a Jewish school and/or send their children there. The primary purpose in those schools is to lessen the chances for intermarriage or assimilation.

The less religious prefer to send their children to public schools. I think Jewish success in the arts, sciences, literature and intellectual life in general is more likely among the less religious.

Dear davidf,

At least in Victoria I would feel you may be in error when you said “I stated that students in private schools in Australia have a better chance of entering university. I don't have the statistics, but I think that the situation is just opposite for Jews.”

May I offer some statistics.

Jewish private schools make up 5 of the top ten schools in the state for median VCE scores and scores of 40 plus.

http://bettereducation.com.au/Results/VCE2008Results.aspx

And as I had written earlier;

In Victoria “a significant majority of Jewish students, estimated at 77 per cent, attend non-government schools, with 62 per cent attending Jewish day schools.”
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-34105173_ITM

Therefore I don’t believe I was being contradictory in my statements because not only were they referring to different eras but were truths in and of themselves.

If we are acknowledging that private schools produce better university entrance results, and the majority of Jewish students go to well funded private schools, then to say this would be a negative factor only for Jewish students probably needs greater explanation from you.

I was not denying an innate ability on behalf of the students but pointing out that their achievements, it must be recognised, are assisted by the private school system.

Probably what we would need to resolve this more fully is statistics on Jewish performance in state schools corrected for SES figures compared to those in private institutions but from what I have read I would still stand by my statements.

I think most people feel that if their children are beaten to a university place when all things have been equal then so be it. However in the case of private school access to publicly funded university places there is growing disquiet.

I personally would like to see far more higher SES students in our state schools because I feel that the parents have a greater capacity for lobbying for better teaching/funding etc and it would be foolish not to acknowledge the great historical role Jewish people have played in recognising and acting upon inequities.

Dear csteele,

If going to an elite private school increases chances for admission to university in all cases it seems irrelevant whether the private school is sponsored by Jewish, C of E, Lutheran or any other group. It is unfair. The unfairness is exacerbated by government support for these schools. It is not politically feasible nor do I think justified to eliminate those schools although my preference would be to eliminate those schools. Religious training can be done outside of school hours. Mathematics, science, languages and probably most other school subjects need have nothing to do with religion, and I don't see any need to segregate by religion students who are learning those subjects.

I think the function of elementary and secondary education should be to:

1. Equip students with sufficient background to make a living or get additional training for that purpose.

2. Give students an appreciation of learning and the arts and sciences so their lives will be full.

3. Socialise students to live in Australian society as adults.

4. Encourage students to think independently and question.

Segregating students by religion can be most antithetical for the last two functions. In that regard private schools do a disservice to Australia.

I recommend completely ending funding for non-public schools and giving sufficient support for public schools so that there is no gap in student's performance between the two systems. I am certain some of the children sent to private schools are only there because their parents think they get a better education there than in the public schools. Those parents are correct in most cases, I think the difference can be remedied by devoting more resources to the public schools.

Dear davidf,

Fairness trumping achievement! I agree but you need to be careful because them's seditious thoughts my friend.

Dear csteele,

Please explain how I have fairness trumping achievement. With adequate funding of the public schools there will be both greater fairness and greater achievement.