Planned Parenthood is the largest abortion provider in the USA.
This year, as in past years, the organisation is asking its supporters to remember them on Mother’s Day.
Their campaign utilises a celebrity who asks contributors to…

“Say thanks this Mother's Day with a gift that honors her courage by making a donation to the Planned Parenthood Action Fund in her name.
There is no organization that I know of that supports motherhood and all that it means more than Planned Parenthood. That's why I'm honoring moms everywhere with my gift to the Planned Parenthood Action Fund today.”
“Honor a mom, and we'll send her a card with your special note letting her know about your gift.”
http://www.ppaction.org/ppvotes/notice-description.tcl?newsletter_id=17513064

Is this a particularly egregious example of cynical doublespeak and have we truly arrived in George Orwell’s 1984
or is it perfectly reasonable for an abortion provider to claim to honour mothers?

Cheery little scamp, aren't you KGB?

I'll do that my mum died because she was forced to go full term.
BTW the baby died too
Yet again you're distorting the truth for your own ends. The organisation does many other things too. And it's in the US and their decision this is Australia.
It's up to the individual and neither I nor you with your extremist (papist views?) or hysterical spin will achieve anything for society as a whole. If your against abortions don't have one. This is an issue busybodies should mind their own business on. Provide alternative care if you want but this topic the way it's phrased shows you to be a hypocrite especially considering your trenchant views on other nationalities.

examinator,
<<If your (sic) against abortions don't have one>>
If you're against slavery, don't own one.

Well this thread must be close to 'trolling' wouldn't you say.

Trying hard to get a reaction.

Sorry, don't care!

Dear KMB,

Some things make look bleak at first glance-
and we can make the wrong assumptions for what
we see as the right reasons. However, with
more information - we can often see that our
judgements weren'y always right.

Keep that thought. "Planned Parenthood," in the
US is a vital organisation - providing the
necessary information to people that need it
the most - to prevent unwanted pregnancies -
and abortions. Therefore their wish to celebrate
"Mother's Day," and attract more attention to their
organisation - is not as incongruous as it may at
first sound. After all - a wanted pregnancy - is
something worth celebrating - is the point being
made. So if you don't want to get pregnant - do
something about it with - "Planned Parenthood."

The statistics for abortions in the US is quite
staggering - I believe its approximately one in
four pregnancies in the US that are now terminated
through abortion. That's why organisations like -
"Planned Parenthood," are so important - to educate
women, and prevent this from happening.

KMB

I believe planned pregnancy agencies are absolutely essential – particularly in counselling young women who have been abandoned by the prospective father. And the lastest fad among some of the prospective dads is to deny responsibility and abandoned young women are left to pay the cost of abortion.

Nevertheless, by coercing a woman into having a child, you strip her of her natural rights. Men are not the ones who have to make the sacrifices or have to physically carry the child, showing people that they were promiscuous at a young age or that they have accidentally gotten pregnant, leaving a good deal of society to glare down upon them (it still happens.) The father’s life can continue on with no judgment whatsoever.

Not every girl is ready to raise and care for a child either, or even to deal with the emotional toll of completing a pregnancy and in the end giving the child away, like nothing happened. Besides the problem with this is that there is no guarantee that the child will not end up in the already overcrowded care system. There are already millions of neglected and forgotten children around the world, so why add to this horrifying statistic?

And nothing’s changed since the beginning of time. Everybody’s ‘doin it, ‘doin it! We just hear of abortions more frequently because there are more people on the planet - the population explosion, not an entirely irrelevant subject either. And at least planned parenthood has put the backyard abortionist out of business.

Curious isn’t it that God gave young women menstruation and sexual urges for boys and girls at 11 or 12 years of age yet God says "naughty, naughty - don't touch until you're married" but some people don't want to get married!

And God ensured that one ejaculation can contain up to 400 million sperm. What I want someone to tell me is who’s the mass murderer who slaughters 399,999,999 poor little sperm babies at conception? Now that’s what I call a real abortionist!

I think a new temporary law is needed, no more babies until all foster children in Australia are adopted.

A country that is not doing well for its children should stop breeding immediately.

On another site that I am on someone is quite adamant that no one should be allowed to become a parent without showing they can do a good job and receiving a card from the government.

Proof of Parental Health (financial, physical, mental). I am starting to like the concept.

Protagoras, did you just call God the real abortionist? Do you have a “safe room”?

Abortion is a free choice of cognitive humans.

Becoming a mother is another free choice.

Celebrating Mothers day is not an event dedicated to the monocular dingbats who beleive they have the God right to deny other folk thier free choice.

KMB
If you get rid of Planned Parenting or Family Planning Clinics you will end up with more abortions. People need education as well as contraception otherwise there will be more unplanned pregnancies. Sometimes 1 + 1 really does equal 3.

Remember,

KMB doesn't let facts get in the way of his prejudices.

Murdering the most vulnerable in society is a national disgrace. Calling it choice or legal does not diminish how ugly this act is. Any organisation that encourages abortion is a disgrace whether Government backed or not. No wonder the Muslims are able to laugh at our laws when we want to promote promiscuity and take no responsibility for our actions. Islamic barbarity through Sharia law is no worse than us murdering the unborn generally due to convenience.

I was gonna make a post here, essentially endorsing the point made by other posters that it's about giving mothers the choice to be mothers, but then&#12288;I figured, what's the point? They're not gonna listen.

Remember your judgemental troll with a disappointed shake of the head this Mother's Day.

"Abortion is a free choice of cognitive humans."

Using contraception is the free choice of cognitive humans. An abortion is the fix after the mistake was made because they didn't use the cogs - just other bits to think with.

"Becoming a mother is another free choice."

Yes but does everyone have the right to make this choice? The insane, the drug addicts, the politicians? Should they be allowed to breed?

"Celebrating Mothers day is not an event dedicated to the monocular dingbats who beleive they have the God right to deny other folk thier free choice."

I thought God gave us a free will and the government decided what rights we had and who was in charge of stopping others no matter how free and willing they might be?

Jewely “An abortion is the fix after the mistake was made because they didn't use the cogs - just other bits to think with”

Not necessarily…. But don’t let fact and reason get in the way of bigoted opinion.

A woman might intend pregnancy but once commenced, circumstances, for any number of reasons, determine a change of mind.

“The insane, the drug addicts, the politicians? Should they be allowed to breed?”

It would only be a unique genius, full equipped with the wisdom of Solomon – and then some, who is able to equipped to make those judgments

With my IQ, I suspect I might be closer to Solomon than the author of the comment but with all humility I do acknowledge lacking the necessary sense of self-righteousness to expect to make decisions as to who should be allowed to breed or otherwise.

Mind you, Hitler had some very specific ideas who could breed and also on penalty of death who should not be allowed to abort.

As for government, never put faith in government… certainly never in the swill who presently preside… but that is an entirely different debate.

Jewely "“An abortion is the fix after the mistake was made because they didn't use the cogs - just other bits to think with”"
"Not necessarily…. But don’t let fact and reason get in the way of bigoted opinion."

You're right.. it isn't always, must watch the overgeneralised statements.

"A woman might intend pregnancy but once commenced, circumstances, for any number of reasons, determine a change of mind."

Yes. But I am not going to go look up stats on pregnancies that were aborted because of the most common reason known as "oops".

“The insane, the drug addicts, the politicians? Should they be allowed to breed?”

"It would only be a unique genius, full equipped with the wisdom of Solomon – and then some, who is able to equipped to make those judgments"

I don't think society quite works that way though aye.

"With my IQ, I suspect I might be closer to Solomon than the author of the comment but with all humility I do acknowledge lacking the necessary sense of self-righteousness to expect to make decisions as to who should be allowed to breed or otherwise."

Would have been quicker and less wordy if you called me a "twat". I wouldn't have had to read it twice either just to make sure you were calling me one. Shame that when you recieved your IQ it vaporised your funny bone.

"Mind you, Hitler had some very specific ideas who could breed and also on penalty of death who should not be allowed to abort."

So do most authors of science fiction novels.

"As for government, never put faith in government… certainly never in the swill who presently preside… but that is an entirely different debate."

I cannot find anyone that likes the governement - how on earth did they get there Col?

"Would have been quicker and less wordy if you called me a "twat". I wouldn't have had to read it twice either just to make sure you were calling me one. Shame that when you received your IQ it vaporised your funny bone." (Quote:Jewely).

MAGIC!!

Ok, I will remember to send them a donation for Planned Parenthood
do some great work, in giving people choices about their lives.

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25459789-5006003,00.html

That is a great story which should make all the godsquad on OLO
very happy. No wonder the baptists hate sex, it might lead
to dancing :)

Priceless, Yabby.

I had to check that the date wasn't April 1st, and I wasn't looking at an article from The Onion.

I still half suspect it is a spoof, it is so ridiculous.

Jewely

You continue to shine.

I have been around OLO long enough to become somewhat jaded, but you recognised Col for what he is just from a single post. Sensational. You should ask him about Maggie Thatcher sometime.

As for this thread - if it looks like a troll, sounds like a troll amd smells like a troll...

"I have been around OLO long enough to become somewhat jaded, but you recognised Col for what he is just from a single post. Sensational. You should ask him about Maggie Thatcher sometime."

Seriously I didn't even know she was still alive.

What is a troll or trolling? I have been cruising about internet forums for two months now and mostly over on a site called Altnews which fell apart yesterday after a huge argument (I promise my part was small) about child saftey and all threads were deleted before police came crashing through the webmasters door.

But I don't understand a lot of the lingo.

Jewely

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

see also discussion on OLO about trolling

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2721

"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion."

Oh gawd, Fractelle I think I am one! I do like a good emotional response but I am particular about which emotion. I am hopeless with sticking to Topics, I am too use to the physical world where conversatiosn ebb and flow and go off on some facinating tangents.

I will do better:
Remember your Abortionist with a Donation this Mother’s Day

I don't mind abortions although haven't had one. I don't think men should be allowed to even talk about this issue.

I donate to Save the Children because this dude talked me in to it in my doorway. It's on AP for $20.00 a month which sucks cause it overdraws my account so the actual cost of my donation monthly is $50.00

Jewely

"Gawd No!"

The distinguishing feature of a troll is malicious intent and a desire to denigrate a single person or group of persons. Such as vilifying gays or by trying to intimidate others.

There is room for humour, irreverence and even some teasing, but never personal abuse, harassment or insult.

It is all about intent, for example the intent by KMB for starting this discussion thread.

Jewely” Would have been quicker and less wordy if you called me a "twat".”

I will leave the baser language for you to illustrate to us all exactly where your own intellect prowess is being trawled up from.

“Shame that when you recieved your IQ it vaporised your funny bone”

Hardly the response I get from most… but you know too little about me to know better…. Then, you seem to know so little about anything to know better.

“I cannot find anyone that likes the governement - how on earth did they get there Col?”
Oh don’t blame me… I voted for the current opposition but to answer your question…
Maybe because half the population are below average intelligence and they, along with the guilt engulfed intelligentsia of academia, who have never been expected to face life in the real world, just followed the false promises of the lying bigots lead by someone who gives a good impression of an albino Chinese dental assistant.

"Mind you, Hitler …..

So do most authors of science fiction novels.”

The difference is Hitler enacted laws to that effect, just as the Right-to-Life would see similar laws enacted today.

Your introduction of science fiction is as appropriate and realistic as your reasoning ability.

Ah Ginx… I am sure you would find someone producing a dollar coin from behind your ear “MAGIC” Too… the slow witted being so easily amused

“As for this thread - if it looks like a troll, sounds like a troll amd smells like a troll...”

Its fractelle

And I see you can find your own definition with easy fractelle… familiarity I suppose …

enjoy your day… this is starting to be fun… just you kiddies up the anty a bit… I do despair of you bland posters – especially your fractelle… you have been around long enough but your dribbling rhetoric never seems to escalate above a whining whimper

Col, hop up a sec and check your seat honey, remove the sharp object and get comfy.

I think being “base” is a concept, really doesn’t matter how many words you use to be base. No, it won’t even matter how many big words you use. Your argument was snotty and base. You were not trying to educate but to demean.

You could well be funny but that post wasn’t and it is the only one I had to go on. Don’t take it personally, I was responding to your post, not you as a whole person. I’m sure there are many fascinating and enjoyable aspects to your character that you have so far kept well hidden.

This is not a competition is it Col? Does Graham have a poll on who is the funniest “user” of the month? Did it look for a moment like I was going to deny you a gift certificate at David Jones?

You’re cross at Ginx for finding a line funny so immediately insult her – was a strange insult because surely if someone could produce a coin from behind her ear it actually would be magic.

I have no idea why you introduced Hitler in the conversation. He is used far too often in debates on any subject.

Now I am willing for you to attempt to change my mind if you think I have stated something stupid, silly, naïve, or even object that I don’t use enough syllables. But gosh, don’t be nasty, it reflects badly. If I don’t come across as particularly clear then I am willing to re-explain something.

After all that I have no idea what you were trying to tell me about my message. But I am willing to hear you out, so to speak, if it was important to you.

Oh dear! oh lor!

We are getting precious aren't we TB?

The condescension wearing you out, is it?

Jewely “I think being “base” is a concept, really doesn’t matter how many words you use to be base.”

To baseness, the number of words does not matter,

it is which words are chosen which defines “baseness” and obviously your vocabulary is what limits you to being base.

I suggest you get to understand things before attempting comment.

“This is not a competition is it Col”

It is you who seem intent on making it one and I do agree.. you, Ginx and fractelle are no competition.

“You’re cross at Ginx”

Ginx has recently made disparaging comments on other threads and I consider that makes him/her fair game here too.

So just like a deer hunter is not “cross” with the deer, neither am I “cross” with Ginx.

I am free to introduce anyone I choose into the conversation. As for Hitler, he enacted laws which made abortion illegal, just like the right to life brigade would wish to see enacted, clearly identifying RtL as having something in common with one of the most depraved social orders ever inflicted upon individuals.

I responded to your post, as I am entitled to do… I would remind you, you are the one who called yourself a “Twat” and thus set the bar for much other observation.

I will continue to respond to your posts as I see fit and will not be curbed by the belated attempts at “righteousness” on your part.

Ginx… keep trolling. You are as you choose to post… and still “smarting” from previous ‘magic’ responses.

“It is you who seem intent on making it one and I do agree.. you, Ginx and fractelle are no competition.”

Golly.

“So just like a deer hunter is not “cross” with the deer, neither am I “cross” with Ginx.”

I get this; really grumpy when tummy empty.

“I am free to introduce anyone I choose into the conversation. As for Hitler, he enacted laws which made abortion illegal, just like the right to life brigade would wish to see enacted, clearly identifying RtL as having something in common with one of the most depraved social orders ever inflicted upon individuals.”

I nearly punched a RTL’er out once trying to get a 15 year old through a crowd to a clinic. Oh you would have hated it, talk about base… I went fully base on this chicks arse. Perhaps I should have instead shown them my white supremacy tattoo and had a cup of tea?

“I responded to your post, as I am entitled to do… I would remind you, you are the one who called yourself a “Twat” and thus set the bar for much other observation.”

Observe away babycakes. I think I told you to call me one instead of suggesting it with so many words. Just yesterday a child called me “pooh face”, I can take it.

Could you please explain what it is we are arguing about? Do I oppose an opinion you have given?

Please don’t tell me you are cross with Ginx so not only have to spread it though all conversations but also attack anyone she happens to be being pleasant to.

What on Earth did you say to him Ginx?

You too, huh, Jewely?

>>Just yesterday a child called me “pooh face”<<

Horrific experience. Fortunately there is a pooh-face support group just down the road, otherwise I'm not sure what I would have done.

I wonder if it was the same kid?

Jewely,

<<I don't mind abortions although haven't had one. I don't think men should be allowed to even talk about this issue.>>
"I don't mind slaves although haven't had one. I don't think non slave-owners should be allowed to even talk about this issue."

Here's a gynaecologist talking about the issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUr0jCbcPNc
Shame on him!

Ooh look - Col's found someone new to play with.

Welcome to OLO, Jewely. I'd recommend "not feeding the Col", but you seem to be having fun with him. Warning: he gets quite nasty.

Nice to be able to post.

Don't need to say anything Jewels; TB is TB,...

...and the measure of that is the spineless attack on Fractelle. Thatchers Boy is smart enough to know that she is a bit down,-so what does he do? Give a good kick!

Cowards usually join in when others have done the ground work. I only bug this lesser-breasted-spineless-yellow-crap-warbler, because he can't dominate me! Silly twisted boy.

He can't dominate Fractelle either,-she's sustained a bit of OLO concussion coming up against the increasingly anti-female profile of OLO.

IF....if, that is tacitly endorsed from the top ('feminist diatribe??'), then this macho-bullying will dramatically increase;-as it has. (eg: "Sexting.." Articles-7/4/09). I look forward to having a chat with one particular poster there. The thread has only just started, 23 pages is nothing more than a good start.

Thankfully there are enough real men on this site, who are settled enough in themselves to not feel threatened. God Bless 'em!

It's par for the course. But if you lock in with the gutless;-the racist;-the intolerant etc..., then make no mistake you WILL be targeted. Male or female. Your turn is coming Jewels!

KMB, you are a newby poster on OLO, but let me assure you, its
been discussed to death and I doubt if you will be able to raise a
single point, which has not been discussed before.

So I will sum it up for you. If you are against abortion, then
you are free to learn from the stats available. You should be
supporting much better sex education in schools and the availability
of conventient and cheap contraception, as we have in say Holland.
The net result is a dramatic drop in the abortion rate.

Crossing your legs for Jesus, was tried and tested in the US by
the Bush regime and the evidence shows that it was a dismal failure.

So there you have it.

"I don't mind slaves although haven't had one. I don't think non slave-owners should be allowed to even talk about this issue."

Here's a gynaecologist talking about the issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUr0jCbcPNc
Shame on him!"

I am pleased you are here KMB, see I have always said this and I know in the back of my mind there must be a counter argument but I am seriously bad at arguing with myself. I would like to be convinced.

I truly don’t think abortions should have anything to do with men. I mean if they make their money by being the Dr that performs the Op then all power to them. But I really believe, not this, this choice men should not be allowed an opinion on. If they want to help then great but not voice an opinion. Well might be more complicated, if it is your kid in there and you really want it then you should be allowed to say so, put forth your reasons etc. But not be the one that decides.

Slaves or cars or even children…. I don’t see the connection. This physical thing females can do and make a choice about, this should not be discussed by men. Hey and I promise I wont talk about man stuff like, you know, man bits.

“Ooh look - Col's found someone new to play with.
Welcome to OLO, Jewely. I'd recommend "not feeding the Col", but you seem to be having fun with him. Warning: he gets quite nasty.”

Thanks for the heads up CJ, he’s certainly cross about something but I cannot figure it out. I have a playroom to the right of me and a computer in front of me and sometimes they merge. I tell a kid I am bit confused about what that word meant and tell some poor user to get his finger out of his nose.

Ginx - I don't want a turn!

Jewely,

People who own slaves deny the humanity of slaves.
Otherwise, how could they enslave them?
Women who abort their children deny the humanity of those children.
Otherwise, how could they kill them?

People who argue against slavery affirm the humanity of slaves.
How can you enslave another human?
People who argue against abortion affirm the humanity of unborn children.
How can you kill another human?

By any objective measure, it is hard to deny the humanity of a slave:
Make your own list.....
By any objective measure, it is hard to deny the humanity of an unborn child:
Biologically, their life begins at conception.
They have their own unique DNA.
They have their own bloodtype.
They have their own fingerprints.
A male foetus has a penis. Is it the mother's penis?

The common argument is that a woman can do what she wants with her own body.
Analogically, slave owners can do what they want with their own slave.

Another argument is that women, who "own" the foetus, should decide and it is none of men's business.
Analogically, slave owners should decide on the fate of their slave and it is no business of any non slave-owner.

Another common "argument" is that if you're against abortion then don't have one.
Analogically, if you're against slavery then don't own one.

So the question comes down to the humanity of the foetus, which can be reasonably supported, as described above.
Can it be definitively established that the foetus is not human?
If not, then surely the law should err in favour of the foetus.

I prefer the brutal honesty of pro-abortion feminists like Camille Paglia who

"frankly admit(s) that abortion is murder, the extermination of the powerless by the powerful.
Liberals for the most part have shrunk from facing the ethical consequences of their embrace of abortion,
which results in the annihilation of concrete individuals and not just clumps of insensate tissue."
http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2008/09/10/palin/print.html

At least people like her have thought about it.

Humans also tend to breathe, does a foetus breathe?
Humans also tend to be defined as separate from animals by their brains, does a zygote have a brain?
Can a foetus think?
We can amputate a hand without comitting murder, and it has it's own fingerprints.
A penis can also be amputated, which usually gets a wince or a laugh, or both.
Slaves can be emancipated, can a foetus?

Bugsy,

<<Humans also tend to breathe, does a foetus breathe?>>
Should we feel free to eliminate all those who require resuscitation or mechanically assisted breathing, even an aqualung? A foetus is arguably more alive than a person requiring resuscitation insofar as they don't need active intervention to keep them alive.
<<Humans also tend to be defined as separate from animals by their brains, does a zygote have a brain?>>
Are you arguing that abortion should be disallowed once brain development commences?
<<Can a foetus think?>>
Can a person in a coma, under anaesthesia or even asleep think?
Can a one day old child think better than a one day before term child think?
<<We can amputate a hand without comitting murder, and it has it's own fingerprints.
A penis can also be amputated, which usually gets a wince or a laugh, or both.>>
Is it lawful for someone to amputate someone else's hand or penis without their consent?
You could amputate the hand or penis of a child in utero and they would arguably still live, given appropriate medical care.
<<Slaves can be emancipated, can a foetus?>>
Can Bugsy me emancipated from his chained thinking?

Your arguments make me wince, but my expectations are not very high anymore.

Expectations are very often correlated with standards, KMB.

Assisted breathing is still breathing.
I am not arguing anything about when or not abortions should be alllowed or disallowed, merely asking questions.
But you seem to be arguing that we can't abort after fingerprints develop. That seems a bit arbitrary to me.
How does one get consent from a hand or penis? I know many people talk about talking with one's hands and thinking with ones penis, but I never heard one actually speak, nor expected it to give it consent without the actual control of a brain.

Proclamations abound, emancipations not so much.

Bugsy,
Gobbledygook to you too.

“How can you kill another human?”
Oh Hi KMB, I would get a gun and stand way back from the splatter. [Jewely: off track and immature]

“The common argument is that a woman can do what she wants with her own body.”
Hmm… or anyone can do what they want with their bodies really. Not that I am up Oz Law but they can here can’t they? {Jewely: dodgy]

Analogically, slave owners should decide on the fate of their slave and it is no business of any non slave-owner.”
But the slave owners didn’t get drunk one night and have the slaves appear in their fallopian tubes. [Jewely: could be on track not sure]

“Analogically, if you're against slavery then don't own one.”
Oh yeah I kinda giggled at that, nice come back. [Jewely: off track but couldn’t stop]

“So the question comes down to the humanity of the foetus, which can be reasonably supported, as described above. Can it be definitively established that the foetus is not human?”
Maybe it becomes “human” soon as mummy decides she wants it. [sorta on track]

“If not, then surely the law should err in favour of the foetus.”
Not if it’s a Male judge! [fully on track here]

“I prefer the brutal honesty of pro-abortion feminists like Camille Paglia who…
…At least people like her have thought about it.”
Yes she must have got a hua of a headache. Probably doesn’t drink or get raped a lot either. [well off track and probably too flippant]

I think we have wondered off on some pro or anti thing – my only argument was that men should not be included in it unless the father and then he still does not get to make the final decision.

You obviously have strong feelings that abortions should not be allowed and I am really sorry if it was you I shoved out the way in the clinic car park around 1987 in Wellington and that stuff I said was awful and I apologise.

Bugsy, get outta here there’s gonna be a cat fight

*Can it be definitively established that the foetus is not human?*

KMB, sure a foetus is human, but it is not a person. The term
"child" applies to a person, murder applies to people. So
your emotive rhetoric won't get you far.

A sperm can be human, a human sperm. The same applies to an egg.
Yet we flush them down lifes toilet without another thought. They
are beings, they are human.

So you are free to draw your little line in the sand at the point
of a fertilised egg, but I remind you that an acorn is not an
oak tree, etc.

Fact is that Darwin was correct. Far more potential beings of
any species will be created, then can ever survive. That is nature
for you and its nature which aborts most embryos.

You are going to have to go to about week 23, until you find what
could be called a human brain in that foetus. By far the majority
of abortions happen well before week 12.

So you have your religious knickers in a knot for no good reason
really.

Most likely you just believe what you grew up believing. See the
bright side, had you grown up in Iraq, you might now be a devout
muslim !

You know, you really should engage with the issues more KMB.

There has been some criticism in the past that the religious community in Pensacola, Florida is so backwardly conservative and fundamentalist that the entire town must face some complicity in creating an environment which could only inevitably lead to the creation of four teenagers who would express their belief in the concept of love thy neighbour by choosing Jesus's birthday as the one perfect day of the year on which to blow up an abortion clinic.

Critics point to the fact that in Pensacola, there have been two separate occasions when avowedly Christian men killed two doctors who were performing abortions.

Sandi Magathan Droubay who wrote an article on war-monger and biblical literalist, Bush, lives in Pensacola with her family. She advised: “Since I’ve lived here we’ve had one school board member jailed, four out of five county commissioners brought up on criminal charges, several abortion clinic bombings, two abortion doctors killed, and 51 stellar members of the community arrested in a huge cocaine bust. The beaches, however, are beautiful.”

Ms. Magathan has an M.A. in Religious studies.

KMB, you condemn abortion outright however, the contention of Christians that life begins upon conception is at variance with your Bible. Genesis 2:7 clearly informs us that human life begins when the baby takes its first breath of air: "God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Therefore, I'd say life must begin with one's first breath.

And Pope Gregory XIV (1535-1591)declared that abortion within eighty days of conception was permitted.

Jewely, feel free to borrow my hard hat and Hazmat suit girl. I’m off to take refuge in a disused bomb shelter.

No, KMB, it's not gobbledygook - here was your earlier comment:

"Can it be definitively established that the foetus is not human?
If not, then surely the law should err in favour of the foetus."

This is entirely subjective. Every single reference point for people can be twisted to encompass other entities or even exclude people.

"Can it breathe" dogs can too. "Is it capable of language?" The comatose aren't. "Does it have five fingers?" Monkeys do. "Does its heart tick?" Hell, a watch can do that.

And so on.

Go on, KMB. Throw any definition at me. I'm sure I can effectively play games, just as you have done when people have made points about being capable of thought, breathing and so on.

So, unless we're willing to stretch the boundaries of being human to monkeys, dogs, watches and god knows what else, you need to accept that this comment here is a semantic nightmare. The fact is, we do need to make decisions based on society versus the individual, taking into account humanity as well.

The ultimate result of banning abortions is proven to be bad for society as a whole. This is one factor. The other factor is humanity, and your definition that a foetus is a human is disputed, and being unable to "definitively establish" that a foetus isn't a human is poppycock, because otherwise, we can't "definitively establish" that a chimp isn't, either.

I see Jewely has descended into raving..… debating the merit of the abuse she hurls upon herself… all mouth and no substance…

Ah and words from ole’ vacuous, the resident Moron…… hey rover… go fetch a stick…

And the slave fetus analogy fails on the grounds….

A slave is a separate and independent entity to a woman. A fetus is entirely dependent and shares the same nutrition and oxygen source as that of the woman in whose body it is developing. Thus a fetus, which, puts the womans body at risk, has no defensibly comparative status to that of a slave.

Only one person should hold decisions over the processes of an individuals body and that should be the person who occupies it. A fetus is a temporary occupant of a womans body and must, therefore expect to have only subordinate rights to those of the woman, else we relegate the woman to being merely a life support system for her uterus and what grows within it.

A woman’s body and her sovereign choice… everyone else is a merely bystander or has only subordinate rights.

"Only one person should hold decisions over the processes of an individuals body and that should be the person who occupies it. A fetus is a temporary occupant of a womans body and must, therefore expect to have only subordinate rights to those of the woman, else we relegate the woman to being merely a life support system for her uterus and what grows within it.

A woman’s body and her sovereign choice… everyone else is a merely bystander or has only subordinate rights."

Col that was brilliant and I thank you. This is what I couldn't explain properly about how I felt.

Jewely you said “I truly don’t think abortions should have anything to do with men.”

I’m going to disagree. This would preclude me as a male from wishing to see a reduction in the number of abortions in our community which I do.

The moment of conception is of value. I agree a foetus is not a child but the moment a pregnancy is confirmed can be a beautiful one, not just because of the prospective infant but purely for the wonderment of the occasion.

I support a woman’s right to choose by don’t ask me to switch of my emotions because of my gender nor my sense of loss if an abortion occurs within my circle. This has allowed me to empathise with the sense of loss felt by the women involved.

I would like to hold on to that.

Col Rouge and Jewely,
<<Only one person should hold decisions over the processes of an individuals body and that should be the person who occupies it.>>
According to your logic therefore, the only person who can decide over the processes of the foetus’ individual body is the foetus who occupies that body.
The fact that they are not able to make that decision is irrelevant because a one-day old child is equally incapable of making those decisions and hopefully you wouldn’t advocate the mother’s right to kill a one-day old child.
Sheltering behind arbitrary definitions which ascribe personhood only to the born is not valid either.
Otherwise we would have the absurd situation of identical twins where the first one out is a person
and the one remaining is a non-person.
You may then argue that the foetus is just part of the mother’s body but you yourself give the foetus autonomy by stating that “a fetus is a temporary occupant of a womans body”.
ie It is separate.
Then you say that the foetus can “expect to have only subordinate rights to those of the woman”
when in fact abortion is a total negation of rights.
To be truthful you would have to say that the foetus has zero in utero rights.
Yours would be absolute justification for abortion at any time for any reason.
I would disagree and argue that they have competing rights and that the severity of the situation should be the determinant of whose rights prevail.
eg, if a woman went to her doctor and said that she wanted an abortion because her 34 week old foetus made her look fat then her right to be vain would be subordinate to the foetus' right to life.
Your absolutist argument would invert those rights.
In contradistinction, where a mother's life was threatened by proceeding with a pregnancy the reverse argument might apply.
So while your homily may sound appealing to someone who is still trying to justify her decision of 22 years ago
(and no it wasn’t me at the clinic Jewely), it is internally inconsistent.

Thank you csteele. This I think I can grasp. You would like to see the number reduced. I would say this makes you a rather nice person to be around. I realise I phrased it badly the “should have anything to do with men”. More like it is nothing to do with men without invite from a female.

Reduction of abortions would occur if men and women ran better communities yeah? But a lower abortion rate would be the byproduct of these better communities hopefully not one reason for doing what is right. Col’s right, I start raving.

What is going on in my head is that yes if the baby does end up being wanted then the conception can be looked on with value. Am I on track with you here?

“I support a woman’s right to choose but don’t ask me to switch of my emotions because of my gender nor my sense of loss if an abortion occurs within my circle. This has allowed me to empathise with the sense of loss felt by the women involved.”

Supporting anyone’s rights must be a good thing. I am not asking men to switch off emotions or support. Just any words they might have unless invited by a female to speak. I do appreciate the manner in which you have offered your thoughts.

But I still believe a man/men should keep his/their thoughts unspoken on this. I can’t think of any other subject I would even have this thought where one gender be considered more than another.

Just this. I am not so stubborn that I am closed to someone being able to change my mind. I always thought it was indeed a wrong thought but I am unable to find an argument to persuade me why.

KMB, sorry again I wasn’t clear. I have never had an abortion, was a 15 year old girl I was getting through the crowd way back when. But on the bright side and should please you, to make it up I have a 15 year old foster child now with a baby.

>>Just yesterday a child called me “pooh face”<<

“Horrific experience. Fortunately there is a pooh-face support group just down the road, otherwise I'm not sure what I would have done.”

“I wonder if it was the same kid?”

I hope they have a “coffee comes out nose support group” next door cause that’s what happen when I read your message Pericles .

Then we’ll go find the little bugger and get KMB to explain something to the kid, anything will do.