Yabby

If you think I nitpick too much, why do you even bother with my discussion threads?

You always start from a basis that I am blaming all men, I have never held all men to blame, I have regularly stated that there are many terrific men who see women as people, not objects. I have also stated several times that there are women who support the status quo, the male gaze, they are to be found in all areas of business. It is also true that the majority of businesses are owned and controlled by men. For example, many of Rupert Murdoch's newspapers reflect whatever political bandwagon he happens to be on.

I agree with Foxy, I don't think you read my posts or you just skim. But I can't prove that. But how you respond to what I have written suggests the latter. Whatever.

There are people (male and female) who do engage with the discussion and I appreciate the comments.

Fractelle:"his is not about whether a man has a PhD or is a labourer."

It is when you;re talking about his choice of reading material. See many labourers reading Quadrant, do you? What about New Scientist or SciAm? Black + White? I could go on. Their relative "merit" as people in your view is not at issue, it's their relative level of education that has the big impact on that choice.

Fractelle:"I have never claimed victim-hood either"

LOL

Fractelle:"how society is structured, how much of that is due to the present culture and how much is instinct (evolution)."

And what do you think is the conclusion to be drawn from your enquiries?

Foxy:"Men control the media. That's a fact."

No, it's not, it's your claim. There are many more female journalists in Australia than men. The ownership may be vested in a man, but that's an historical hangover. There sheer number of deliberately and wilfully and frequently mileading anti-male "stories" and "opinions" that are published suggests that the overall effect is that the output of the traditional media is predominantly controlled by women.

What is your basis for your claim?

* I have never held all men to blame*

Very true Fractelle, so you blame most men. Somebody has to point
out the flaws in your thinking, so I respond for that reason.

The media is alot more then Rupert Murdoch. I spend a dollar a day
on Select TV. That includes BBC TV, CNN TV, Bloomberg TV. All
global channels.

All those channels are littered with women at every point, from
journalists, commentators, billions of $ Super Fund managers,
chairpersons of debates, analysts, State Governors, magazine
publishers, women everywhere.

Perhaps you just need to look around more to see what a huge
share of the media market, women actually participate in,
at every level.

Pericles,

You bring a sudden sense of deja voulez vous to this thread. (Deja voulez vous: the sensing that one has mistakenly propositioned the same woman twice)

Again you wax lyrical. Again you prove that not only can your mind's ear distinguish between the voices of Doris Day and Theresa Brewer, but also between the lyrics of Hank Williams and Dorothy Fields. Morituri te salutamis.

I will not seek to minimize the now all too evident fact that the music playing inside my head is from the wrong score sheet. But I will state, without any quaver in my voice, that both pieces involved propositions. Without getting too crotchetty about it, that should be near enough to be good enough, shouldn't it? Its hard to use the written word to convey an auditory memory to help communicate a visually-cued psychophantically admiring male gaze to where its meant to go: hardly surprisingly, there can get to be mixed messages. I know, some women wont have a bar of this as an explanation. I guess I will just have to face the music, or will it be the canticles?

Fractelle has already been on about the dearth of Handel in this thread. I can hear the chorus from the oratorio 'Bronwyn the Hammer' already, if I'm not mixing my scores up yet again, sung by the choir of the Cysters of the Coup de Grace:

"Thine be the blame here, cold and heartless man
Thinking you could understand us? For that you'll now be damned!"

BTW, at the end of each line on all my score sheets there are two little blank boxes. One is marked 'f', the other 'n/f'. Given your evident musical knowledge, can you tell me what they might be for? They don't seem to make any difference to the quality of the music.

Fractelle,

You missed it twice! Each time it was Antiseptic who said it. Each time posted adjacent to one of mine. Perhaps you need to implement the general implications of what you twice missed in your particular circumstances.

'I have regularly stated that there are many terrific men who see women as people, not objects.'

Except 'every' man who saw the performance by Susan Boyle apparantly. They all categorised her as non-f*ckable the instant they saw her didn't they? Not only do this massive audience of men all categorise her this way, not one man could possibly be attracted to her enough to 'f*(k' her, according to old Fraccy. These men have based their decision on whether they would sleep with her instantly, because looks is the sole reason men use in choosing a sexual partner.

Even if it is 'proved' men are more aroused by visual stimulation than women, that leaves Fractelle with the dubious logic jump that men base their decisions on sexual partners *Solely* on this form of arousal. I believe it comes from her opinion of men as somehow inferior 'shallow' or 'base' beings when compared to women, the more virtuous creatures. Those uncomplicated beasts, 'making' women look the way they want them too. For no man has ever partnered up with a woman unless he considers her stunning, no matter what her other qualities.

One could just as easily say women need to be less competetive if they're so affected by competing for the 'male gaze'. You don't see men who spend so much time competing with each other, having strokes from stress climbing the corporate ladder saying it's those nasty women making us compete for their attentions.

In summary, if say, Antiseptic had said a similarly large group of women had all categorised a male as non-f&ckable the instant they found out he was a garbologist, I can only imagine the response he would get.

Dear Houellebecq,

I don't think that Fractelle is saying that all
men are aroused by visual stimulation, or that
that's the only criteria that get's a man's interest.

However, you must admit that visual stimulation
plays a big part in the reason men like Hugh
Hefner are billionaires today. Or do you really
believe his empire was built on the fact that men
bought his magazine solely for the articles?