Fractelle:"create a world where women feel welcome and are not intruding into some boys club"

Given that consesnsus view is that the difference you've been discussing here appears to be a basic difference between the sexes, why is it up to men to change? Why should it not be the responsibility of women to accept that some men are like this, just as you expect men to accept that women have certain "hard-wired" responses?

As I've pointed out previously, these magazines are overwhelmingly aimed at relatively poorly-educated, blue-collar men, who make up an increasingly large part of the male workforce. If women want to have dominance in the professions as they have now achieved, numerically anyway, perhaps they have to accept the consequences of "dumbing down" the male population?

Fractelle's opening post concluded with this question:

"Would sexy magazines aimed at women sell? I rather doubt they would sell at the same rate as the men's zines, if at all. I don't think I would buy one. What do other people think?"

I'll take this opportunity of reminding all that another line from the song from which Fractelle has taken her topic title says "[Hey, good lookin'] Wouldn't ya like to know what's goin' on in my mind?". It seems implicit that it is accepted by both men and women that men are generally susceptible to flattery offerred by a woman. In the context of the song (and the likely context of its singing), the question/offer as to what may be going on in the mind of the singer is simply a polite/impudent statement of the fact that, in general, men have absolutely no idea what goes on in a woman's mind.

Even though they have been told! "Hey, big spender! ..... Spend a little time with me."

The 'men's magazine' genre sells propaganda, and Fractelle has been buying it!

Fractelle rails against the domination of society by the male gaze. She rails particularly about 'the age of invisibility'. She asks ".... why are women's desires not catered to [to] the same extent as men? I can only ask: what is it that women, or perhaps Fractelle in particular, desire, that can be catered for in the print/pictorial medium, that is not available? I suspect that it may relate to issues of power and recognition. Apropos of that, I can only think Fractelle has had her eyes shut, for she appears to have failed to recognise the flagging of a turning point during the progress of this thread in the gender war she has been long fighting.

Let us imagine Fractelle attracts and holds a man she desires. He then goes blind. Is Fractelle suddenly less attractive, although, to him, now invisible?

*But the prevalence of the male gaze does mean that women judge themselves harshly and find faults – even the most beautiful.*

Err hang on Fractelle, don't blame men yet again.

Last night there was a programme on tv about botox. 300$ million
of it a year used in Australia, often by very young women.

They want to feel better about themselves, they say. They are
seemingly self critical of the tiniest of details, which few
men would even notice.

Women can also be extremely bitchy and critical about each other,
as they see each other as competition and rip each other apart
visually. If a really pretty girl walks into a pub, notice the
scowl she often receives from those women with partners in the
pub.

I once had a fling with a German woman in her fifties, who in her
younger years would have been extremely attractive. She'd had
affairs with globally known politicians, powerfull businessmen
etc. Her bathroom was littered with every potion seemingly ever
invented, to try and bring back her youth. She was clearly
pissed off that her power to wrap men around her little finger and
do as she pleased with them, was fading. Age was catching up.

Some women will use their looks as a way of achieving power and
status in this world. When it finally fades through old age,
its a sad story indeed, for many simply cannot cope.

Don't blame men for that.

Foxy,

Advertising directed at women generally depicts men looking stupid. Where does that leave your argument?

Yabby,

I agree. You don't see women complaining in the nightclubs of the world receiveing free drinks and never being refused entrance at the door. Then once they get older, the sour grapes set in. They complain about being ogled, then complain that they are invisible when they stop being ogled.

Forest,

'The 'men's magazine' genre sells propaganda, and Fractelle has been buying it!'

Exactly. That's why she imagines every single man in an audience of thousands who lays eyes on any female performer is sitting there thinking to himself whether he'll put her in his 'f*ckable' category or not.

'...in the gender war she has been long fighting. '

What Fractelle fighting a gender war? No. Only bullys like Antiseptic fight gender wars. Sweet innocents like Fractelle discuss prominent societal issues that are important to women.

Antiseptic,

'why is it up to men to change?'
Stupid question. Women are the victims. Any nice normal man would accept this. Actually your post sounds bullying to me. Are you trying to silence Fractelle? Maybe you're a troll.

Errr.... Forrest.

I suspect you may be thinking of the wrong song.

>>I'll take this opportunity of reminding all that another line from the song from which Fractelle has taken her topic title says "[Hey, good lookin'] Wouldn't ya like to know what's goin' on in my mind?".<<

The song from which the exact quote comes is Hank Williams' "Hey Good Lookin'" from 1951:

"Say hey, good lookin'. What ya got cookin'?
How's about cooking somethin' up with me?
Hey, sweet baby. Don't you think maybe,
We can find us a brand new recipe?

I got a hot rod Ford, and a two dollar bill;
And I know a spot right over the hill.
There's soda pop and the dancing's free
So if you wanna have fun, come along with me.

Hey, good lookin'. What ya got cookin'?
How's about cooking somethin' up with me?

I'm free and ready, so we can go steady.
How's about saving all your time for me?
No more lookin'. I know I been cookin'.
How's about keepin' steady company?

I'm gonna throw my date book over the fence,
And buy me one for five or ten cents
I'll keep it 'till it's covered with age
'Cause I'm writin' your name down on every page.

Say hey, good lookin'. What ya got cookin'?
How's about cooking somethin' up with me?"

In "Hey big spender", from "Sweet Charity" - which is a whole different ballgame - there's no "Hey, good lookin'..." to be found.

Just:

"I could see you were a man of distinction,
a real big spender, good looking, so refined"

In the context of the point you were making, the innocence of Hank Williams is a different proposition to the... errr, proposition made by the "hostesses" in the Fandango Ballroom.

Romany

This 24 hour curfew between posts is a pain in the arse. I had this reply ready early this morning.

A big thank you Col, for proving my point about the male gaze. 'Woman as specifications for car'. Well at least he is open to the shade of duco, I mean colouring. All set out with a sense of entitlement that only someone accustomed to being in control would expect.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2694&page=0#60943

And I don't qualify – I'm too tall, yippeee! Romany, you better watch out, if he ever sees you...if you ever see a man who resembles Ronny Corbett kicking his supposed inferiors from his path as he makes a beeline for you, well, you've been warned.

Foxy

I agree that advertising uses such stereotyping which really insults the integrity of both sexes. I think I needed a copy of Ian Robertson's book before starting this thread.

Forrest

I thought I had a handle on your first post, but you have lost me on your latest. I am always happy to learn, what is it I have my eyes closed to?

Yabby

If you believe that the “male gaze” does not dominate media, that's fine – although there is no evidence for that belief – quite the contrary. This NOT a blame game, I have repeatedly stated that the reason for the reality of a media dominated by men is that it is largely controlled by men. It is a fact. Unless more people speak out about it and put forth a female perspective nothing will change.I have also noted (repeatedly) that some women are indeed complicit with the stereotyping of women.

I am not at war with you. I just don't agree with you. I have set out very clearly my reasons.

Cont'd