Nice summary, Fractelle.

I'd just like to question one line.

>>This is the culture we have created: men are more visually aroused...<<

Is this "culture" or is it an evolutionary trait?

Have we created it, or does it - so to speak - create us?

Now that, my dear Pericles is the conundrum.

My best guess is that it is a combination of both - biology and culture.

Respect.

Pericles, Fractelle and all
This has been answered already it is a combination of both sheer nakedness isn't the turn on i.e. or every doctor or nudist (naturist) would be in a constant state of arousal.

Like I said beauty is in the mind of the beholder.
Which western man wants his woman to have a stretched neck or a lip like a duck, tattoos from head to toe etc. ?

In truth the most sexy are those who have some measure of clothing. I'm more turned on by a woman in a sexy neg than in in the buff in prelude to whoopee. Most women prefer the mystery of some clothing. Hence most picies of men for women are with the genitals covered unzipped jeans with a spray of perspiration.

The best strippers never take it all off but its the way they take it off that gets the effect.
As a child I fancy Audrey Hepburn but where and when did she disrobe? She was in her words a skinny chicken.

Get real folks the genitals of both sexes aren't something I want to hang on my wall as art or something of beauty. In PNG as a youth I saw my share of nude nubiles but rarely did it excite me but I will admit to seeing one with a wet top swimming with me that caused me to swim into colder water.

Clearly then it is the context and that includes the cultural aspects.

Examinator, Fractelle:-

Damn right. Horrifyingly, somewhere Col gave his recipe for his perfect woman and buggered if I didn't fit the specifications!

Now, without resorting to personal comment, one only has to read his posts and mine to imagine what a nightmare that would be.

While being specific on the physical (height, weight etc)what he didn't factor in (and why are we not surprised) was character, culture, beliefs etc.

While our Col is not reticient about what he considers his prowess in sexual matters, one could safely assume that a five minute conversation between the two of us would soon have that particular male gaze directed on the nearest means of escape. ( will not be ungallant and mention, in this instance, anything whatsoever about the female gaze in such a scenario!)

Examinator

This thread was started in reaction to the assertions made on the Susan Boyle thread that men do not place more importance on visual appearance of women, than do women.

So I decided to discuss how the sexes do respond to images of each other - the differences and the similarities. To claim that the male gaze does not dominate our culture is either myopic or deliberate. I accept (with misgivings) that some women are happily complicit with the male gaze, being as critical of women's appearance as men - but they are the minority. But the prevalence of the male gaze does mean that women judge themselves harshly and find faults – even the most beautiful. This creates self esteem issues which is detrimental. The same problems are now occurring to young men, but plastic surgery, anorexia are still primarily female issues.

I agree that beauty is on the eye of the beholder. I was simply stating facts while trying to steer a path free of emotive response in order to have a calm discussion that did not descend into gender warfare. That there are plenty of intelligent, thoughtful men who do not fit the lowest common denominator, is true. But the men's mags, advertising etc suggest that more change is required to create a world where women feel welcome and are not intruding into some boys club. Which is why I am happy to consider anything you write as I know it is not from a knee-jerk reaction to "woman states opinion - must be feminazi".

Dear Fractelle,

One has only to look at advertising to see
that what you're saying is valid.

As I've
stated in other threads - market research
has shown one of the most effective ways for
advertisers to reach a male audience is to
associate a product, however remotely, with
a seductive or smiling female.

Ian Robertson confirms this in his book,
"Sociology," " The sexuality of
women is exploited by having glamorous
models stroking new automobiles, cradling
bottles of whiskey, or being sent into raptures
by the odour of a particular after shave.

Advertising directed at women, on the other hand,
shows females delighted beyond measure at the
discovery of a new instant soup, or thrilled into
ecstasy by the blindness of their wash. In fact,
the vast majority of TV adds that use women models
are for kitchen or bathroom products..."

I think to fully appreciate the implications
of these stereotypes as Robertson points out,
"try substituting men for the women on the
screen the next time you watch TV ads, and note
how demeaning the portrayals would be."