Graham

I think you must've missed point 2 in my post above, in your eagerness to claim the moral high ground.

So I will help by re-quoting from some of my previous posts on this thread:

"2. Women are more likely to be judged than men, BY BOTH SEXES (but particularly men), on their appearance."

"but we still have a way to go before men and women are evaluated in an equitable fashion. For example, a world which values men for being caring and nurturing rather than ridiculed as being somehow lacking in masculinity - I'd like to see that."

You are annoyed by the numbers of posters who don't find you as honest and open as you claim to be. Well, if you, like every male in the audience AND not a few women judge Susan to be NOT f*ckable, when you first looked at her BEFORE hearing her sing - I'll eat MY shorts.

I'm not a naive 15 year old; I know men. I am not saying its wrong, because I judge men by appearance too, but our culture is dominated by the male gaze. You see it in movies, advertising and those magazines that you "read only for the articles".

I would really appreciate some honesty here. That's all. And I think you doth protest too much on this one Graham.

All straight guys do it; categorise women according to appearance and whether they would like a 'leg-over' or not. Its basic instinct. So don't go claiming you are somehow 'above' every other straight male here and that you always judge women by their sparkling personality or intelligence before even considering appearance.

Pants on fire.

Sadly, and much against Bronwyn's expressed wish, this is beginning to turn into a classic gender skirmish.

>>I was never aware of being scrutinised thusly, just had to accept that males do look, appraise and evaluate - even the most respectful. Therefore, I suspect that Pericles, Graham et al are telling huge porkies<<

Telling porkies, Fractelle?

And what's with the "therefore"?

I doubt you will find anywhere a denial from me that I "look, appraise and evaluate". My partner even compliments me upon the discretion with which these actions are accomplished.

She asserts, in fact, that it not only is evidence that I am still alive, but is far more accurate than determining whether or not I am breathing.

Fractelle,

Start eating your shorts. You may think you 'know men', but I find your assertion that every man in the audience was instantly deciding whether she is f&ckable bizarre.

'All straight guys do it; categorise women according to appearance and whether they would like a 'leg-over' or not.'

'every male in the audience AND not a few women judge Susan to be NOT f*ckable'

I think you have a very low opinion of men. The fact you imagine a whole audience of men immediately thinking of sex with any performer they see, 'categorizing women', even the term 'leg-over' to project a sexist old fashioned shallow view. To me you seem like someone perpetually confronted by the ghost of Benny Hill. Either that or you base your opinions of men on a bunch of 15yo boys reading Ralph magazine. Even that you imagine not 1 member of the audience could possibly find her f@ckable.

'just had to accept that males do look, appraise and evaluate - even the most respectful.'
So it's not respectful to look at the opposite sex? Someone you know well and obviously have a plutonic relationship with. That lends no weight to your toungue out, sex obsessed, categorize instantly every women you lay eyes on opinion of men.

'Women are more likely to be judged than men, by both sexes (but particularly men), on their appearance.'
Rubbish! Women judge appearance just as much as men, are much more observant, and much more subtle at doing so.

As for your assertion that I STILL didn't understand your Pamela reference, well that's just childish. Oh poor fwactelle didn't get an answer.

Bronwyn,

You have got me wrong. Honestly. The refernce to Jealous women had nothing to do with yourself or Fractelle. The first quote you referenced was actually about Fractelle and I have asserted before she sees everything in gender terms, but obviously you were arguing the same line and took the first one to be about you too.

Out of curosity, what do you believe I have a chip on my shoulder ABOUT?

GrahamY “What I'd like to know is whether she would have got this level of attention if she had been good looking.”

Yes maybe it’s the Australian notion of how, against all the odds, the underdog can prevail (and in this case “dog” being the operative noun).

Fractelle “Just for once, instead of a woman being chosen for her looks, she gets there on talent; in spite of all the ridicule and eye-rolling.”

Yes this woman is a reincarnate Margaret Thatcher but without the makeup or hairdo or dress sense… and dearest Maggie did do a course in public speaking.. not in the melodic range of this gal but who cares… women not chosen for their looks but for their indisputable talent and in margaret’s case, indomitable spirit.

Fractelle “1. Men check women out.
2. Women are more likely to be judged than men, by both sexes (but particularly men), on their appearance.”

You obviously have not dated in a long, long time…
In my recent experience.. women check blokes out and judge us just as much as we judge them.

Of course.. whilst some are judging others are moving in… modern dating is a fast and furious process.. and to bring this back on to topic

I doubt Susan Boyle would do too well at speed dating.. regardless of her voice

Whenever Col talks about Margaret all is well in this OLO world. Do you talk to your kids about Margaret Col? I bet they don't realise how lucky they are.

Gads! This has become quite complex-for my slow brain at least.

I AM going to check out both appearances; Potts/Boyle. It will be interesting to see.

Women ARE judged on their appearance, (Pamela Anderson is a 'dog'?. Other blokes love the bleach and plastic of her.....appearance! Not how well she did in this/that TV/film!). It IS all about female appearance that such comments are made-and sorry gentlemen,-it IS generally a guy thing.

I have NEVER heard a female say "God! look at him, he's pig ugly!" Has it occurred?,-possibly;- but jokes and attitudes to female appearance are common;-and I won't deny that that judgment sometimes comes from women. I'm going to risk this: when women judge other women like this, it is because of something women are damn good at; sheer nasty bitchiness/cattiness. Here goes: when men say it, it is a derogatory put-down. (Or would you xy's prefer bitchy/catty??) It is a putting of a female in her place by a male judgment call.

And you know something fellas?; you DO know that. Don't go off ...er, half-cocked, think about it. I haven't exactly flattered women here you know.

This is a thread about Boyle,-the issue of her initial acceptance (whether 'choreographed' or not), was inevitably going to occur. (And was raised by a male.....).

Personally?-it would be interesting to see if she and Potts were perceived differently. Frankly it comes as no surprise to me that this issue was raised by Graham. It is a valid issue.