Thanks both! And your points are taken.

Pericles, it's good isn't it? The two folk who have made a huge global impact are mature-aged folk who had just their talent to rely on. Magic!

(Adjourns to shower to practice musical scale..).

I've only caught the briefest of glimpses of Susan and her voice on a news broadcast, so I can't comment with any real authority on either her or the reaction she's generated.

But I came in midway on a conversation today on RN where someone was being very critical of the initial response by both the audience and the judges. Her point, and even without seeing the show myself I think it's a good one, is that why should we be so surprised that an ordinary middle-aged woman who as Pelican said cares nought about fashion should be so extraordinarily talented. The reaction, as others here have already alluded to, should be more along the lines of - so what, she has as much chance of being talented as anyone else - but of course it's not.

I think this whole over-reaction speaks volumes about the status of older women in society today. Unless they make an effort to conform to a certain look and to look much younger than they really are, they are treated at best as invisible and at worst, as in this case by all accounts, with ridicule.

The commentator on RN made the point that there's a gender element involved here. She claimed that plain men or men that don't bother over their appearance are not treated with the same level of disdain as women in this situation. She referred to Peter Potts, and again I wouldn't know personally as I didn't watch the show, but apparently he wasn't subjected to quite the level of contempt that Susan was.

Without wanting to divert the thread into a gender war, I think this is absolutely spot on, and have made much the same sort of point before on other threads.

Bronwyn, unlike you, I saw both the Susan Boyle and the Peter Potts performances.

In my view the RN commentator is wrong to assert that the"gender element" is anything more than superficial.

Take a look yourself at the video sometime, and draw your own conclusions.

You will see - as almost everyone else has - that it is the transformation that creates the tension/release combination that is the key ingredient of a memorable narrative.

The performance of Peter Potts a couple of years ago is also available on YouTube for you to make the comparison yourself. You will see that it shares many of the same characteristics.

>>Without wanting to divert the thread into a gender war, I think this is absolutely spot on, and have made much the same sort of point before on other threads.<<

To a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

But it is more convincing if the nail is your own, Bronwyn, and not one that you happen to have borrowed from an RN talkshow for the occasion.

Pericles

"But it is more convincing if the nail is your own, Bronwyn, and not one that you happen to have borrowed from an RN talkshow for the occasion."

There was no 'borrowing' as you snidely insinuate. I freely acknowledged I was quoting the words of a commentator whose title I didn't catch, but who was no doubt well qualified and speaking on the basis of research done in the area. I was perfectly open about bringing someone else's view into the discussion. It's exactly what informed and intelligent debate is all about. What are you suggesting? We all sit here and spout from the top of our heads? You might have all the answers Pericles, but I learn from others and I assume that most others here like to do so too.

I added another perspective to the debate and most thinking people will I'm sure welcome it. And no, I won't be watching re-runs of TV talent shows in order to justify my views to your good self. Women here like Fractelle and Pelican, who possibly know firsthand exactly what I'm speaking about and may as well have seen the footage you're referring to, will in my view be able to address my comments far more authoritatively than you will. I respect your view. But I certainly don't respect your calling-in of my debating ethics in order to make it.

As a middle-aged woman myself, the nail of the point I was making is very definitely my own, thank you Pericles. If you'd bothered to read more carefully, you'd notice I stated that I have made the same point myself before on OLO. I find your implication that I was merely lifting someone else's ideas quite offensive.

"You will see - as almost everyone else has - that it is the transformation that creates the tension/release combination that is the key ingredient of a memorable narrative."

Transformation? What from? Frumpy middle-aged woman who looks like a nobody, to a person who, surprise surprise, actually has some talent. That is exactly the point I was making.

Sorry, Ginx. Just realised I definitely should have added your name in there too, alongside Fractelle's and Pelican's. I still haven't quite gotten used to having you around again, but it's a good feeling to know you're back with us and in such fine form too!

Hope you're finding fine form in mastering those musical scales too! :)

Bronwyn

Imagine the collective media slavering if Susan Boyle still sang as well as she does but looked like Pamela Anderson.

That an 'ordinary' woman can make it on talent being seen as remarkable is as sad as when the first woman gained her commercial pilot's licence, or the first female electronics technician graduated; being treated as some amazing phenomena. These are just examples of how women are still evaluated as the 'other'. I really don't want this to devolve into gender wars either, but we still have a way to go before men and women are evaluated in an equitable fashion. For example, a world which values men for being caring and nurturing rather than ridiculed as being somehow lacking in masculinity - I'd like to see that.