Ginx, both events were stage-managed for maximum impact. And yes, Susan Boyle's was more stage-managed than Potts'. The video I watched had grinning side-kicks mugging at the camera from the wings, saying stuff like "you weren't expecting that, were you?" That was far from being happenstance, I would suggest.

But the accusations here are that it is only men who had formed the "ugly duckling" image prior to her starting to sing.

If that were true, I'd be happy to cop the gender-war abuse. But I bet that the vast majority of women watching were thinking the same thing. Poor girl, setting herself up for failure like this...

And where did this come from, Fractelle?

>>As for Houllie, Pericles - you are a sensitive little bunch of flowers aren't you? Can't handle the female gaze at all can you?<<

Strange observation. Not sure what I did to deserve it, but moving on...

Ginx

>>I have NEVER heard a female say "God! look at him, he's pig ugly!" Has it occurred?<<

You would know, if you had been at our place when Dalziell and Pascoe comes on the TV.

Fractelles comprehensions skills:

Male poster says: Not EVERY man in the audience was fantasizing about whether or not they would have sex with any performer that came on stage. Men don't ALL categorize women as f&ckable and even those that do probably not at first glance, even less likely while watching a performance.

(As a rejection of Fractelles ''ALL straight guys do it;..', 'EVERY male in the audience..')

Fractelles translation: Posters are saying, They {personally} don't judge women by appearance first? Ever?

Just who was 'trying to claim that they don't assess women's appearance'? Personally I 'assess' womens appearance, though whether I would have sex with them or not doesn't enter my head. I certainly don't put them into 'categories'. Though I'm sure fractelle knows better, as I'm just a man, but she 'knows men'.

'Can't handle the female gaze at all can you?'
WTF? I'd love to be wolf whistled!

BTW: Still trying to reconcile these two Fractelle quotes:

".. a world which values men for being caring and nurturing rather than ridiculed as being somehow lacking in masculinity"

"you are a sensitive little bunch of flowers aren't you?"

Thanks Ginx. I wasn't about to do it myself, but I was confident that if I had, a re-viewing of those two videos would indeed reinforce the commentary I quoted. Susan Boyle was clearly subjected to a greater level of disdain than was Peter Potts.

Pericles can waffle and obfuscate all he likes. Your concise comparisons have cut through it all, and well and truly vindicated my position. I've had one apology from him, so I know expecting another would probably be a bridge too far.

It would be good to have some sort of acknowledgement though of the invisibility, and worse, of older women who choose to be themselves, rather than wasting huge amounts of time and money trying to look years younger than they are, purely in order to conform to unrealistic social norms imposed on them by the androcentric society in which they live.

One only has to look at how older men are perceived to see the difference. Provided they keep themselves fit, which is something we should all do anyway regardless of aesthetics, men don't face the same pressures women do. Greying and thinning hair on men is perfectly acceptable, whereas most women have quickly learnt that they need a youthful-looking head of hair and spend a small fortune and endless hours to achieve it. While lines on men's faces are accepted as they should be, there's a whole industry built on telling women they should have line-free faces, not to mention pert breasts, blemish-free legs and all the rest of it.

The reason you men just don't get this is that you've never lived this reality. And no, Houellebeqc, I'm not envious of slim young things. I just want to be myself without being judged harshly and superficially for what should be every person's right, and I want this freedom for all older women.

Susan Boyle's treatment highlights just how far we've got to go to win that fight.

I never thought I'd have to argue that men judge women by their looks more than women do. Denial of the bleeding obvious. The overwhelming majority of the following 'services' are entirely geared towards the male perspective:

Brothels
Strip Clubs
Gratuitous nudity in film/advertising. (All women can do is hope for a shot of George Clooney removing his shirt).
No female equivalent at all of 'Ralph' type magazines (only magazines of beautiful nude men are for gays). Actually I wouldn't even be interested in buying one - do other women think this?

And I don't even watch freakin' reality shows, but I do know our world is structured very much around the male perspective.

As Bronwyn expressed in far more polite terms than the ones I used (non-f*ckable), older women are judged harshly. They are sneered at for trying to look younger, or sneered at if they simply appear as themselves - “she's let herself go” - as Susan Boyle was.

Nor have I denied that some women are complicit in this form of judgement – something that those “who protest too much” deliberately ignore.

Then there is the deliberate obfuscation:

Graham's definition of a 'feminist diatribe':
“Any woman who has a different opinion to mine, sniffle”.

Pericles: are you so bored since Boaz left the party that this is the best you can do?

Houllie: Never been wolf whistled at? There is a reason, you have been judged by the female gaze.

We, as a society, do need to treat each other with respect. But I find myself devoid of respect in the face of the dishonesty displayed by some of the male posters here. I am so glad that the men in my life are honest and caring (even if they do sneak a peak – that's OK), at least they are honest about being normal human males.

Bronwyn,
I think posters here are placing too much emphasis on Susan Boyle's appearance. The other big factor in the ridicule she encountered was the fact she is middle aged and everyone simply assumes that if a person, of either gender, has not 'made it' by then they cannot be any good. However, Susan's life has not been what the majority of us have had and her personal circumstances resulted in her late start to be a professional singer.

I was not surprised when I saw the video as I had been told about her but it must have been a shock to the audience. I agree with Perciles that these shows are stage managered and the performers would have to audition before being chosen to appear. Perhaps they even allow some less than average performers to appear so the judges can critisize and make it more interesting. The judges would be briefed, at least, on the acts to appear. I don't watch the shows myself.

I read a lot of the comments attached to the clip and there were quite a few that were critical of the young woman in the audience at 1.25 (I think).

As said before, I love nothing better than to see ordinary people succeed so I hope Susan realises her dream. Am sure we will hear a lot more of her.